Dakryn's Batshit Theory of the Week

[Dak]

?

 

[zabu of nΩd]

U.S. finally begins to reign in Israel; U.S. ammunition sales reach record high

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- In what could be a goodwill gesture to the Obama administration, Israeli security forces removed an illegal settler outpost Thursday in the West Bank.

A spokesman for the Israeli military said a combination of police and military personnel carried out the action, removing several metal containers from a minor hilltop encampment at Maoz Esther.

The small outpost was erected in 2005 by residents of a nearby settlement.

The move comes just three days after Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu visited the United States and was told by President Obama and Washington lawmakers that Israel must stop settlement construction and remove illegal West Bank outposts.

The Israeli daily newspaper Haaretz reported in its Thursday edition that government sources indicated the move was meant as an overture to the U.S. administration and the Palestinian Authority and that it "is part of the 'price' Netanyahu paid Obama in exchange for the latter's statements about Iran's nuclearization."

Mark Regev, an Israeli government spokesman, said "the issue of settlements and illegal outposts were discussed" between Netanyahu and Obama, but that the topic was "first and foremost a rule of law issue" and that the government was now engaged in a process to bring about the removal of illegal outposts peacefully.

Under the 2002 Roadmap for Peace plan brokered by the United States, the European Union, the United Nations, and Russia, Israel agreed to "dismantle settlement outposts erected since 2001" and "freeze all settlement activity."

"Israel understands full well what its commitments are but reminds everyone that different sides have obligations as well," Regev said. "The Palestinians have obligations and the Arab states too." His remark is a reference to the Roadmap requirement that Palestinians end "terror and violence" and Arab states cut off funding for such activity.

"The way forward is to have all sides meet their obligations," Regev said.

 

[Dak]

The US needs to completely cut ties with Israel.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

And let the 7 million people in the least fucked-up country in the Middle East get slaughtered by their neighbors?

 

[Dak]

And let the 7 million people in the least fucked-up country in the Middle East get slaughtered by their neighbors?

A: Least fucked up is a matter of opinion.
B: The main reason we have had so much trouble in the Middle East is because Israel exists after the US led effort through the UN to carve out the nation to throw a bunch of Turkish gypsies on. The original inhabitants didn't like it then, and don't like it now.
C: Israel supposedly has nukes, not to mention an already superior military compared to it's neighbors. If it can take over land that wasn't ceded to it by the UN without punishment vs multiple countries, it should be able to take care of itself. Right now it comes off as nothing but the little brat with a big brother no one really wants to mess with.

I see no reason for Israel's right to exist as it's own nation. If the purpose was to put them back into their holy land, why didn't they give them ALL the land promised in the Bible, especially including the Temple Mount ffs. The whole thing was set up to cause the problems we are seeing in the Middle East now, and it needs to be dissolved, or at least let them fend for themselves.

I am sure someone would consider those statements anti-semitic, but that would be pretty ludicrous considering my "religious" beliefs. I just don't believe in the right to existence of the secular state of Israel.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

A: Least fucked up is a matter of opinion.

Not really. Other than the Bush administration's grand nation-building project of the past few years, they're basically the only Middle Eastern country with even remotely adequate civil rights, and probably the only one with a working democracy. I don't know what standard you're applying if you think they're as bad as the rest of those shit-hole nations.

B: The main reason we have had so much trouble in the Middle East is because Israel exists after the US led effort through the UN to carve out the nation to throw a bunch of Turkish gypsies on. The original inhabitants didn't like it then, and don't like it now.

Yeah, it shouldn't have happened in the first place - but it's already been done, and letting it get wiped off the map after it's had this long to develop would be absurd.

C: Israel supposedly has nukes, not to mention an already superior military compared to it's neighbors.

Considering how small it is compared to many of its enemies in the region - especially Iran, with a population ten times as large - I don't think its technological edge counts for much. Plus, nukes aren't going to deter the legions of rabid suicide-bombers lurking around outside its borders. They'd probably love to see Israel blow away millions of people with nukes.

If it can take over land that wasn't ceded to it by the UN without punishment vs multiple countries, it should be able to take care of itself. Right now it comes off as nothing but the little brat with a big brother no one really wants to mess with.

No, it should be pressured to withdraw from the unjustly-seized land, not abandoned altogether. Just because their government is irresponsible government doesn't mean their citizens deserve to be plunged into a bloodbath.

I see no reason for Israel's right to exist as it's own nation. If the purpose was to put them back into their holy land, why didn't they give them ALL the land promised in the Bible, especially including the Temple Mount ffs. The whole thing was set up to cause the problems we are seeing in the Middle East now, and it needs to be dissolved, or at least let them fend for themselves.

Who cares. The fact is that there are people living there now, and past atrocities do not warrant further atrocities to 'balance' them out.

I am sure someone would consider those statements anti-semitic

No, just disturbingly callous and short-sighted.

 

[genocide roach]

I see no reason for Israel's right to exist as it's own nation. If the purpose was to put them back into their holy land, why didn't they give them ALL the land promised in the Bible, especially including the Temple Mount ffs. The whole thing was set up to cause the problems we are seeing in the Middle East now, and it needs to be dissolved, or at least let them fend for themselves.

israel does just fine on their own. actually, they could probably blow up most of the middle east and do it better than us
~gR~

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Are you saying that just because they have nuclear weapons? I don't see anything "just fine" about a country with vehemently extremist enemies having nukes as its only real option for self-defense.

 

[cookiecutter]

I'm glad the Obama administration is trying to exert some pressure on the Israelis. I think past administrations have confused supporting and defending a friendly democracy (good) with letting that democracy warmonger and antagonize its neighbors (bad). Of course Israel is hemmed in by hostile neighbors, but I think this means it should try to act with the most international decorum rather than what they have been doing. They should not give a people a rational reason to dislike them because this will only let the horde of people who hate them for their religion stronger.

 

[genocide roach]

Are you saying that just because they have nuclear weapons? I don't see anything "just fine" about a country with vehemently extremist enemies having nukes as its only real option for self-defense.

no. their military is quite impressive in every aspect. their training is top notch and they're 10 times more dedicated than the US military is.

if you put the US against israel in a wargame, my money is on israel
~gR~

 

[Dak]

Not really. Other than the Bush administration's grand nation-building project of the past few years, they're basically the only Middle Eastern country with even remotely adequate civil rights, and probably the only one with a working democracy. I don't know what standard you're applying if you think they're as bad as the rest of those shit-hole nations.

How about the genocidal standard. Of course the US fails in that regard as well. If I was Israel's neighbors, I would be fighting them too, especially based off how they treat the Palestinians.

Yeah, it shouldn't have happened in the first place - but it's already been done, and letting it get wiped off the map after it's had this long to develop would be absurd.

So once something is fucked up, your solution is to just to make it a more powerful fuckup?

Considering how small it is compared to many of its enemies in the region - especially Iran, with a population ten times as large - I don't think its technological edge counts for much. Plus, nukes aren't going to deter the legions of rabid suicide-bombers lurking around outside its borders. They'd probably love to see Israel blow away millions of people with nukes.

I am just writing this off to your lack of exposure/knowledge of international military capabilities. GR is correct in that the Israeli military is one of the best trained and equipped in the world. Their training exceeds ours on average.

No, it should be pressured to withdraw from the unjustly-seized land, not abandoned altogether. Just because their government is irresponsible government doesn't mean their citizens deserve to be plunged into a bloodbath.

Well that is what I mean, if Israel was dissolved that would include displacing the people. Hell, bring them over here, just get them out of the middle East.

Who cares. The fact is that there are people living there now, and past atrocities do not warrant further atrocities to 'balance' them out.

Apparently Israel disagrees. [posts pictures of mutilated Palestinians]

No, just disturbingly callous and short-sighted.

It is the opposite of callous or shortsighted. If the US and Israel removed themselves from the middle east, it would solve like 99% of the problems over there. Millions of lives will be saved over time gaurunteed, not to mention the regional peace achieved.

But that doesn't benefit the pockets of the war-profitteers.

 

[Dak]

Boston who survived cancer through natural treatments as teen said he would hide Hausers

 

[Dak]

Parents stabbed in home in front of 9 yr old son

I can make three comments on this one:

A: GOOD THING THE POLICE PROTECTED THEM AMIRITE?!?
B: That is what happens when you don't have a accessible gun in the house.
C: OMGZ BAN KNIVES,SAVE LIVES!1!!!1

 

[entanglement]

Parents stabbed in home in front of 9 yr old son

I can make three comments on this one:

A: GOOD THING THE POLICE PROTECTED THEM AMIRITE?!?
B: That is what happens when you don't have a accessible gun in the house.
C: OMGZ BAN KNIVES,SAVE LIVES!1!!!1

She was in the kitchen. She had more knives accessible to her than the killer did. She had a whole range to pick from. And who's to say an accessible gun would have saved them? The police can NEVER prevent a killing unless they're physically in between the killer and the victim anyway. They're effectively there for the aftermath.

Besides, why care so much? Fuck em if they couldn't even defend their lives.

And for once lets not 'think of the poor 9 year old kid omg '. That shit needs to be sorted.

 

[Dak]

She was in the kitchen. She had more knives accessible to her than the killer did. She had a whole range to pick from. And who's to say an accessible gun would have saved them? The police can NEVER prevent a killing unless they're physically in between the killer and the victim anyway. They're effectively there for the aftermath.

Besides, why care so much? Fuck em if they couldn't even defend their lives.

And for once lets not 'think of the poor 9 year old kid omg '. That shit needs to be sorted.

My whole post was pretty much aimed at gun control advocates.

 

[entanglement]

Then picking a random murder crime news story as the shoulder was pretty weak.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

How about the genocidal standard. Of course the US fails in that regard as well. If I was Israel's neighbors, I would be fighting them too, especially based off how they treat the Palestinians.

Both sides have committed atrocities. I'm not sure which aspect of Israeli violence you consider egregiously worse than Arab violence, but war is war, and neither side has been particularly careful about the deaths of innocents.

At any rate, when you factor in the severe oppression of women, homosexuals, and political dissidents in virtually all Arab countries, it's clear that the Arabs are far more brutal to their own people on average, regardless of violence between Arabs and Israelis.

So once something is fucked up, your solution is to just to make it a more powerful fuckup?

Um... that's a mischaracterisation of the problem. The point is that the damage has already been done, and if both sides would just leave each other the fuck alone now, there would be no further damage.

I am just writing this off to your lack of exposure/knowledge of international military capabilities. GR is correct in that the Israeli military is one of the best trained and equipped in the world. Their training exceeds ours on average.

Well, I guess the conflicts they have been in were all pretty one-sided, but then they haven't had to take on a country like Saudi Arabia since the '40s, and if you put together the economic strength of all the countries who hate them, it's a pretty lopsided comparison. This is all kinda counterfactual though, and probably not worth debating.

Well that is what I mean, if Israel was dissolved that would include displacing the people. Hell, bring them over here, just get them out of the middle East.

I'm sorry, but you're just jumping to extremes. The peace process has barely been given a chance due to Israel's historically aggressive stance toward its neighbors, and only recently we're starting to see them open up to things like recognising a Palestinian state or not stealing more and more land from Palestine. It would be far preferable for the U.S. to convince Israel to back the fuck off and mind their own business than to go about starting some fucking exodus of 7.4 million people.

Apparently Israel disagrees. [posts pictures of mutilated Palestinians]

Wow, great argument. You clobbered me there.

It is the opposite of callous or shortsighted. If the US and Israel removed themselves from the middle east, it would solve like 99% of the problems over there. Millions of lives will be saved over time gaurunteed, not to mention the regional peace achieved.

But that doesn't benefit the pockets of the war-profitteers.

Point addressed above. Less aggressive Israel --> less conflict and killings.

 

[Dak]

Both sides have committed atrocities. I'm not sure which aspect of Israeli violence you consider egregiously worse than Arab violence, but war is war, and neither side has been particularly careful about the deaths of innocents.

So how many Arabs has Israel killed, and how many Israelis have Arabs killed? Even conservative estimates would put the number astronomically in Israel's favor as far as deaths/injuries inflicted.

At any rate, when you factor in the severe oppression of women, homosexuals, and political dissidents in virtually all Arab countries, it's clear that the Arabs are far more brutal to their own people on average, regardless of violence between Arabs and Israelis.

It's clear because you have widely travelled to these other countries and know first hand how "bad" it is? I don't buy most of the western propaganda about the Arab countries. If we seriously cared about that, we wouldn't be fucking buddies with the most corrupt,oppressive Arab nation (Saudi Arabia). I don't see how Jordan or Egypt(for example) are worse than Israel.
There are so many profit driven reasons for our interest in Israel, and the Middle East in general it's absurd it gets ignored. If human rights etc etc were really important to us, we would be all over Africa right, where much more legitimate threats to life and liberty exist (Hi2u Darfur) just to name one.

Um... that's a mischaracterisation of the problem. The point is that the damage has already been done, and if both sides would just leave each other the fuck alone now, there would be no further damage.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. Telling someone to just accept a fucked up situation and expecting that to be the end of it is a pipedream at best imo.

Well, I guess the conflicts they have been in were all pretty one-sided, but then they haven't had to take on a country like Saudi Arabia since the '40s, and if you put together the economic strength of all the countries who hate them, it's a pretty lopsided comparison. This is all kinda counterfactual though, and probably not worth debating.



I'm sorry, but you're just jumping to extremes. The peace process has barely been given a chance due to Israel's historically aggressive stance toward its neighbors, and only recently we're starting to see them open up to things like recognising a Palestinian state or not stealing more and more land from Palestine. It would be far preferable for the U.S. to convince Israel to back the fuck off and mind their own business than to go about starting some fucking exodus of 7.4 million people.

Well I agree it would be easier to make them play nice, but that hasn't happened in the entire time of Israel's existance, and I don't see that happening any time soon , especially with Netanyahu in now. He has a history of aggression. The bottom line is Israel won't stop aggression until they get complete control of the Temple Mount, which isn't going to happen without a literal war. So it would be better for all parties involved to completely remove the instigative party from the area (Israel).
The best thing to do is almost never the easiest, but cutting corners just leaves you with a different shitty situation.

Wow, great argument. You clobbered me there.

Your sarcasm doesn't erase it's validity. Israel has been killing it's neighbors left and right or threatening too for decades, treating the Palestinians as bad as they were treated by Nazi Germany, and there is no end in sight.

Point addressed above. Less aggressive Israel --> less conflict and killings.

Even if Israel is less aggressive, they are still the cause of the instability in the region. Thanks to the Judiasm-Islam conflict, those countries will not get along. The Jews definitely can't really give up their religion, otherwise they don't have any sort of claim to the land, so to potentially say religion is the cause of this mess is to understate the problem, and to potentially suggest they should get rid of their religions is ludicrous.

When I was in Iraq, we had a Jewish guy in our patrol, and he had this little Israeli flag he would pin on when no one was paying attention, and the reaction he would get from the Iraqis even in little shit-hole settlements of the grid was um, strong.

Our aggression in the Middle East coupled with our backing of Israel is not helping the situation, regardless of how often we suggest we are "trying to help". It's only inflaming the situation even more.

 

[Dak]

Then picking a random murder crime news story as the shoulder was pretty weak.

Isn't it though? But that is what the gun control lobbyists do, so I guess that is their standard.

 

[genocide roach]

Well, I guess the conflicts they have been in were all pretty one-sided, but then they haven't had to take on a country like Saudi Arabia since the '40s, and if you put together the economic strength of all the countries who hate them, it's a pretty lopsided comparison. This is all kinda counterfactual though, and probably not worth debating.



I'm sorry, but you're just jumping to extremes. The peace process has barely been given a chance due to Israel's historically aggressive stance toward its neighbors, and only recently we're starting to see them open up to things like recognising a Palestinian state or not stealing more and more land from Palestine. It would be far preferable for the U.S. to convince Israel to back the fuck off and mind their own business than to go about starting some fucking exodus of 7.4 million people.

Point addressed above. Less aggressive Israel --> less conflict and killings.

israel can take its largest advisary (iran) with ease. theyre simply better organized.

a less aggressive israel DOES NOT result in less conflict. every time israel stands down some palestinian militant group starts launching mortars and rockets. israel is aggressive because their enemy is, not because they refuse to let peace work.
~gR~