Dakryn's Batshit Theory of the Week

[V.V.V.V.V.]

The government as Dakryn speaks about it is not doing the killing. The military, as an extension of the government, is. The government is then killing by proxy. Not really comparable to how other people (lol) kill.

btw when you're walking down the street you're not under constant surveillance just fyi

 

[Cythraul]

That is absolutely fucking preposterous and I invite you to defend said claim.

Calm the fuck down, child.

As an immediate rebuttal, the government is an entity, not an individual or group of individuals with a hive mind so comparing "the government" to all murderers is positively fucking daft to begin with, and it just gets easier to rebut from there.

You haven't rebutted anything because the point is that the greatest violence has been committed through the apparatus of government power. This is not even a controversial claim.

For one thing, regarding the military as an extension of government is all well and fine but the military is the one doing the actual killing (actually the soldiers are), not the government.

Last time I checked the military doesn't usually kill unless at the behest of politicians/government entities.

 

[Einherjar86]

The military is comprised of government officials and agents, and they can only act on orders sent down through various chains of command. I think it's safe to assume that when the military engages in large-scale killing, they're acting in accordance with orders from higher government officials.

 

[King Richard]

What Cyth and Ein said was my point. The military is the government, not just an "extension."

 

[Einherjar86]

I understand what Andy's saying; but the government is still responsible, even if it is killing "by proxy."

Historically, the military is actually not supposed to be an extension of the government; however, in contemporary society executive powers usually appropriate the military so that it's within their jurisdiction (Department of Defense, or some other organization). I don't really think you can differentiate between government and military anymore, even though they may have once been separate entities.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Calm the fuck down, child.

You haven't rebutted anything because the point is that the greatest violence has been committed through the apparatus of government power. This is not even a controversial claim.

Which is a pretty stupid point because murders, which are the likely comparison Dakryn is making, are not done for any express purpose or due to any large-scale overarching conflict. In addition, the people are at fault for creating the government which has assumed the power to kill; the government isn't a sentient being that kills things as Dakryn would probably like to have people believe (IT'S ALWAYS WATCHING YOU *SHIFTY EYES*). Of course, just because the military/government kills people in war to hopefully end a bigger-picture conflict doesn't excuse them from, well, killing people...but peace treaties and sanctions and shit only go so far and usually don't work at all. I'm not war-mongering or anything, just sayin'

Last time I checked the military doesn't usually kill unless at the behest of politicians/government entities.

That's pretty interesting because I could've sworn, oh wait here we go

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Civilian_casualties_of_World_War_II

I doubt the government told people "hey just hunt down/gun down civilians and shit, it's all good because we're the government and like senseless killing" (ok some countries with juntas and shit believe this I guess but not ours) but, well, in war shit kinda just happens like this. Where there's people, there's conflict; where there's conflict, there's violence. I believe it is very unfair to just say "well the US government controls the US military and thus the government has killed more people than every other thing or person that kills people ever!" and believe you can get away with it. It's obviously a falsification and more than a bit silly/contrived.

 

[King Richard]

Kinda like the government didn't order the a-bombs being dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki right? Stupid military!

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

cool assumption bro

 

[Einherjar86]

I doubt the government told people "hey just hunt down/gun down civilians and shit, it's all good because we're the government and like senseless killing" (ok some countries with juntas and shit believe this I guess but not ours) but, well, in war shit kinda just happens like this. Where there's people, there's conflict; where there's conflict, there's violence. I believe it is very unfair to just say "well the US government controls the US military and thus the government has killed more people than every other thing or person that kills people ever!" and believe you can get away with it. It's obviously a falsification and more than a bit silly/contrived.

The government is responsible though; the Department of Defense controls all aspects of the U.S. military. Even if they didn't specifically order the troops to do that, they still have to answer for it; and I'm also willing to bet that while higher officials may not have given the orders, they did nothing to stop it.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Yes, I know the Dept. of Defense has to answer for the killings in wars, but the government itself as an entity isn't killing and soldiers out in the field don't phone every kill back home so likely the government doesn't even know how much they have to answer for. My point is that it's fucking war, shit happens, and the government itself isn't to blame for killings or casualties of war. Casualties happen because wars happen, because there is conflict. Generally, the US government is not known for just being malicious and going out of its way to murder civilians and make life hell for every other country, and if anyone (ahem Dakryn) thinks it is, he should probably just stop speaking or die or something because that is not the case. Without government, there would be just as much violence, killing, etc. People always find a way to have conflicts occur, they don't need the government for it; so I feel like saying "the government is the number one murderer ever of all time in the history of existence!" is more than a bit silly and over the top.

 

[Cythraul]

Which is a pretty stupid point because murders, which are the likely comparison Dakryn is making, are not done for any express purpose or due to any large-scale overarching conflict.

I don't understand the significance of this point. Perhaps you can elaborate on it?

In addition, the people are at fault for creating the government which has assumed the power to kill;

When did "the people" create the government?

the government isn't a sentient being that kills things as Dakryn would probably like to have people believe (IT'S ALWAYS WATCHING YOU *SHIFTY EYES*).

Why do you think he would have us believe that? I think it's far more likely that he realizes that it's individuals acting through the apparatus of government power. Then again, I probably have a higher opinion of Dakryn than you do.

That's pretty interesting because I could've sworn, oh wait here we go

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Civilian_casualties_of_World_War_II

I doubt the government told people "hey just hunt down/gun down civilians and shit, it's all good because we're the government and like senseless killing" (ok some countries with juntas and shit believe this I guess but not ours) but, well, in war shit kinda just happens like this. Where there's people, there's conflict; where there's conflict, there's violence.

I don't see the significance of this. First of all, I thought we were simply talking about killing in general. Second of all, are these supposed to be examples of killings not undertaken at the behest of government? If these are supposed to be artifacts of large-scale conflict, who is responsible for starting and perpetuating such conflict?

I believe it is very unfair to just say "well the US government controls the US military and thus the government has killed more people than every other thing or person that kills people ever!" and believe you can get away with it. It's obviously a falsification and more than a bit silly/contrived.

I don't believe anybody here made that claim. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the discussion was about government in general.

 

[cookiecutter]

I don't see how saying that militaries killed a lot of people is relevant to the discussion. What I'm assuming is that Dakryn et. al. want to make the point that since government/military killed a lot of people then government is bad. Following this train of logic then government is evil and murderous and should have as little power as possible, which fits with Dakryn's earlier rants against the UK government. I think the flaw here is that if you believe this argument you would necessarily have to be an anarchist or at the very least a pacifist and I really doubt you guys believe either of those principles.

V5, I think their claim is right, at least in the 20th Century due to Nazism and Communism. I just don't think that assertion should lead to the conclusion that I think they're making.

 

[Einherjar86]

I'm not trying to imply that the government is evil; I was only interested in the claim about government as a "killer." I think it's unfair to make a distinction between government and military; they're the same entity, so essentially the government is doing the killing.

 

[Dak]

Government as an idea is not evil, it is an actual necessity. However, due to the draw of power on the ambitiously corrupt individuals (individuals that make up the collective entity of "government"), governmental powers must be held in check by the governed.

Once the ability for self defense is removed, there is no actual check. This was the purpose for the 2nd amendment.

Totalitarian governments under "auspicious" leaders such as Hitler, Mao, Stalin, and others, first forced registration of arms to find out where they were, then confiscated them. After means of resistance are removed, it is quite easy to do whatever you want to a population regardless of how loudly they cry "foul".


I wasn't even referring to just war, I was referring to the amount of genocide at the hands of governments (through the military, which is pretty much always an extension of the government, or in many 3rd world cases, is the government).

 

[cookiecutter]

Totalitarian governments under "auspicious" leaders such as Hitler, Mao, Stalin, and others, first forced registration of arms to find out where they were, then confiscated them. After means of resistance are removed, it is quite easy to do whatever you want to a population regardless of how loudly they cry "foul".

This is a symptom rather than a cause of what those governments did. There's no reason to suggest that genocide would occur in a liberal democracy just because they want to register guns. I know you're crazy and everything but please try to understand what I'm saying.

 

[Dak]

But there is nothing to stop it from occuring, and that is the problem.

 

[The Ozzman]

Totalitarian governments under "auspicious" leaders such as Hitler, Mao, Stalin, and others, first forced registration of arms to find out where they were, then confiscated them. After means of resistance are removed, it is quite easy to do whatever you want to a population regardless of how loudly they cry "foul".

I think you'd have uprisings and civil unrest if this happened though

 

[Eligos]

It might be a good idea to stop living in the Cold War era, Dakryn.

 

[The Ozzman]

It can happen in any era.

 

[Cythraul]

I think the flaw here is that if you believe this argument you would necessarily have to be an anarchist or at the very least a pacifist and I really doubt you guys believe either of those principles.

I am an anarchist.