Dakryn's Batshit Theory of the Week
- Thread starter Ender Rises
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Dak
mentat
But this isn't going to happen. A certain scenario in the future is the sun going supernova, which will ah, raise the temperature of the earth, to say the least. But that's irrelevant in a practical sense.
IF the world temps went up 12 degrees: How do we know this would be bad (other than due to the, as usual, piss poor planning/subsidization of our central institutions)?
Really though, all of this is beside the point of institutional coercion as an "answer". I'm all for people probing the universe, find out things and bring back information. But not like this. It boils down to a simple question I could ask: Do you believe I should be killed for disagreeing with the method? Currently your answer is yes. That I don't take it personally is due to the fact that I recognize this is a cultural (albeit mostly universal as it relates to culture) problem. Benefits of the psychology interest.
Einherjar86
Active Member
I have no response to this.
Not because I think it's right. I just won't respond to it.
Dak
mentat
Understandable. But I don't see any other way to characterize the current situation in real terms. Despite my objections to the arrangement,I support them in real terms via monetary contributions at gun point, so my objections amount to little, and "support" for the system (regardless of ends) is "support" for the death penalty for real objection. Otherwise "support" would be towards voluntary support (no quotes).
When something is done via government, regardless of whether it's "supported" by x members of the population, it is in fact supported with our sweat and or blood. You pointed out as much earlier when referencing my complicity. I'm not arguing over that complicity(and didn't). But that's my point in a nutshell. Ultimately, excluding those who are suicidal, life/living takes precedence over complicity in all sorts of "indirect" evil. That is fuel, or source of the banality of it all. We crucified everyman Germans for just as much. It's one of the reasons I've adjusted my position on the death penalty, amongst other things, and much* in part to your more cogent or sound arguments and reasoning.
Edit: This new avatar would seemingly be less ironic but is actually moreso given the current bent of the dialogue. Bastiat was a politician.
Jimmy... Dead.
contemplative curmudgeon
Einherjar86
Active Member
Better than an actual murderer.
So, here's my problem with that conclusion. It's clear that my ethics is different from yours, and I understand your libertarian ethics that interprets any government action as coercive since it operates according to, as you say, "at gun point"; but claiming that your resistance means I want you killed, or that death is even the logical result of defiance, is absurd.
You live under government control now, and you seem to be doing fine. You have your complaints, and maybe sometimes you come off as a disgruntled employee; but the awful coercion of government doesn't seem to be inspiring the choice to end your own life by resistance. And if you're suggesting that death would be the punishment, then this seems like a large bit of sensationalizing similar to that kind that martyrs seek.
I do not settle for the fact that humans carrying out basic transactions and decisions among one another will lead to the best possible form of organized society. And I don't believe that it's either freedom - non-coercive involvement between individuals - or else coercion and forced interaction on pain of death. I'm not saying that isn't what it is now; but that isn't what it needs to be.
Dak
mentat
I never understood Pat's sympathy for Jesse. I mean, technically we could have sympathy for all of them, but why Jesse specifically? No more an angel than any of the rest, and not even a decent excuse as an original motive (compared to Walt originally just trying to take care of his family for example).
But it's not sensationalism. How does completely withdrawing support not lead to death? Of course the initial initiation of withdrawal is reacted to with attempted caging. However, if the caging is also not complied with, death is absolutely the next step. This is the underlying reality to every law passed, every tax, every fee, etc. Tell me how this is not the case.
This is the gun the electorate wrestles to point at each other for their pet ends, while ignoring the evil means. Of course they ignore them because they deny it, like you are doing here. Of course it's easy to be in denial since it's so rarely brought to bear. Of course, when it is, it is rationalized and the victim is regarded as an "idiot" or "criminal". Like my friend the Neocon would be theocrat asserted "We know they are criminals for they are in jail".
Of course I'm doing all right though, I'm in full compliance
. Hell, I've gone above and beyond simple compliance. I'm a card carrying member of the most illustrious wing of the system in the eyes of the electorate. I'm now working diligently to become a valuable member to society in yet another facet, through the appropriate channels and so forth. Why? Because martyrdom rarely accomplishes anything sought(and even if it did, what good does it do the martyr?). It also violates a duty to life. Do I need to self immolate on the National Mall to be taken seriously? That seems to be the trend in other countries, if you would believe the reports anyway.Coercion always reduces to a death threat or else falls away. So we are left with an either-or.
Einherjar86
Active Member
It's not a death threat though, I don't see how you make this connection. I mean, I see how you're making it, but I don't see how you can believe it. There are punishments, that I certainly agree with; but calling it a death threat it pure sensationalism.
And Jesse did not deserve to die, unless your reason is that the weak need to be culled from the herd.
And Jesse did not deserve to die, unless your reason is that the weak need to be culled from the herd.
Dak
mentat
So there is no threat of death if I refuse to pay taxes and then refuse the subsequent caging attempt(s)?
Well I didn't watch the end of the season, but I assume about everyone died, including Jesse. Why didn't Jesse deserve to die just as much as the rest of them? How was he even "weak"?
Jimmy... Dead.
contemplative curmudgeon
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Einherjar86
Active Member
That's fucking bullshit, and you're both incredibly horrible people if you think Jesse deserved to die.
Jesse killed one person, and who did he do it for? How much did he hate doing it? How much was he manipulated into doing it? And how much did he try, and try, and try, to make everyone else stop fucking killing people!
I don't think Jesse's weak. My conclusion from your both idiotic interpretations of Jesse's character is that you must think he's weak, and weakness must die.
Epilogue: I'm being intentionally inflammatory here, mainly because I don't think either of you are considering the show in all its complexity, nor do either of you truly understand the dynamics of the characters. Furthermore, Dak, you haven't seen the whole series, so you haven't witnessed the heartbreaking redemption that Jesse has had to suffer (time and time again).
EDIT: Dak, no there is no death threat if you refuse "caging."
Jesse killed one person, and who did he do it for? How much did he hate doing it? How much was he manipulated into doing it? And how much did he try, and try, and try, to make everyone else stop fucking killing people!
I don't think Jesse's weak. My conclusion from your both idiotic interpretations of Jesse's character is that you must think he's weak, and weakness must die.
Epilogue: I'm being intentionally inflammatory here, mainly because I don't think either of you are considering the show in all its complexity, nor do either of you truly understand the dynamics of the characters. Furthermore, Dak, you haven't seen the whole series, so you haven't witnessed the heartbreaking redemption that Jesse has had to suffer (time and time again).
EDIT: Dak, no there is no death threat if you refuse "caging."
Jimmy... Dead.
contemplative curmudgeon
The complexity *sigh* only you understand lol please.
He shot a dude in the fucking face you moron, and yes he had a choice, prison or death - that's what a man does when he's up against it.
Once you start murdering innocent people like the sociopaths around you, you're guilty, bottom line, welcome to the real world.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
He shot a dude in the fucking face you moron, and yes he had a choice, prison or death - that's what a man does when he's up against it.
Once you start murdering innocent people like the sociopaths around you, you're guilty, bottom line, welcome to the real world.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
Einherjar86
Active Member
I do feel a sense of superiority in this matter, I'll admit.
Jesse was never a strong character in the sense that he was totally in control of his actions. Walt and Mike, and especially Gus, were strong characters who were comfortable in their ability to manipulate others. Jesse was a pawn, like an instrument, and it's questionable exactly what his mental state was at the time he shot Gale.
Saying Jesse deserves to die ignores the level to which his possessive individualism has been compromised, and the level to which his interior matches up with what he did. The law doesn't care much about personal feelings and intention; it only cares about physical fact. The great thing about Breaking Bad was that it makes us hate people like Walt, who don't always carry out their intentional actions first-hand, and love people like Jesse, who get manipulated into doing it.
Jesse was never a strong character in the sense that he was totally in control of his actions. Walt and Mike, and especially Gus, were strong characters who were comfortable in their ability to manipulate others. Jesse was a pawn, like an instrument, and it's questionable exactly what his mental state was at the time he shot Gale.
Saying Jesse deserves to die ignores the level to which his possessive individualism has been compromised, and the level to which his interior matches up with what he did. The law doesn't care much about personal feelings and intention; it only cares about physical fact. The great thing about Breaking Bad was that it makes us hate people like Walt, who don't always carry out their intentional actions first-hand, and love people like Jesse, who get manipulated into doing it.
Jimmy... Dead.
contemplative curmudgeon
He was an immoral selfish little cunt (excuse me, I just really hated him throughout the series lol). We're talking about a person with no sense of honor, dignity, self respect, integrity etc.
At least a guy like Mike knew he was a piece of shit and he got what was coming. Jesse just cried bitched and moaned that he never had control but it was moral character that he lacked.
At least a guy like Mike knew he was a piece of shit and he got what was coming. Jesse just cried bitched and moaned that he never had control but it was moral character that he lacked.
Einherjar86
Active Member
I disagree entirely. He did have a moral character. He just was never allowed to channel it. But you're right that he had no sense of self-respect. How could he, when Walt was constantly twisting any possibility of respect out of him?
Jimmy... Dead.
contemplative curmudgeon
I'll just continue in the T.V thread. Don't want to ruin the on going debate between you and Bastiat over there.
Dak
mentat
First: In respect to the death threat: So if I refuse to let the cops lock me up for refusal to pay taxes, which includes both fighting to get away/stay away from the cops (self defense), or if that fails and they seize me alive, repeatedly attempt to escape prison, I won't be killed somewhere in the process? I guess technically I could fail to the point where Im locked to the floor in solitary or something, and is that very much different from death? Of course, getting shot by cops upon resisting, or shot when trying to escape are the most likely scenarios.
Back to BB character assessments:
At least you are consistent in your double standards here. You've been willing to cut Jesse unlimited "circumstantial slack" since we first discussed the shows characters. I concur with Jimmy's assessment. He was a selfish little punk, who was only concerned ultimately with "money and hos" (and getting high). While he was manipulated by Walt, it's not like he didn't happily do his own manipulating of those dumber than himself when it was beneficial.
If we consistently apply the circumstantial slack you want to apply to Jesse to all of the rest of the characters we have sufficient information on, they all have a case for whatever sort of "innocence" you want to apply to Jesse.
Then we have this "suffering of redemption", whatever that means. For "redemptive acts", how about Walt taking out people worse than/equal to himself. Isn't this redemptive in a sense of justice distribution?
Yes there are umpteen circumstantial reasons why Jesse did X and Y. Same goes for Walt, Mike, Hank, Gus, etc.
Back to BB character assessments:
At least you are consistent in your double standards here. You've been willing to cut Jesse unlimited "circumstantial slack" since we first discussed the shows characters. I concur with Jimmy's assessment. He was a selfish little punk, who was only concerned ultimately with "money and hos" (and getting high). While he was manipulated by Walt, it's not like he didn't happily do his own manipulating of those dumber than himself when it was beneficial.
If we consistently apply the circumstantial slack you want to apply to Jesse to all of the rest of the characters we have sufficient information on, they all have a case for whatever sort of "innocence" you want to apply to Jesse.
Then we have this "suffering of redemption", whatever that means. For "redemptive acts", how about Walt taking out people worse than/equal to himself. Isn't this redemptive in a sense of justice distribution?
Yes there are umpteen circumstantial reasons why Jesse did X and Y. Same goes for Walt, Mike, Hank, Gus, etc.
Jimmy... Dead.
contemplative curmudgeon
Einherjar86
Active Member
I assume you'd resist in the same way Bartleby did: "I would prefer not to."
In that case, you would eventually be wrestled to the ground and probably taken away. If you then tried to accost the officers violently, then you'd be shot; but at that point you're no longer simply resisting, you're attacking. And the officers can only be said to be engaging in self-defense as well (defending themselves from you).
And I never said that anyone deserved to die. That's a condemnation that I'm not willing to make. I think Walt deserved to be punished to a higher degree than Jesse did (based on the evidence given to us by the narrative).
Dak
mentat
Whoa. If I continue to try and escape once the cuffs are on I am now an aggressor?
Of course, as system functionaries, praetorians are always acting in "self defense", or should I say "system defense". I aggressed against the system by noncompliance, and so of course the system is just engaging in self defense.
Well if we are talking punishment in degrees that exclude death as an option, I at least see room for argument. How do you punish someone for being manipulative though? Are there degrees of manipulation? What else has Walt done that's deserving of punishment? Making drugs? Nah. Killing killers? Big grey area.
