dealing with difficult band members

jrt12

jrt12

Member
Oct 20, 2008
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Hell-ay, CA
so the post about dealing with difficult clients had a lot of great suggestions, even though the thread doesnt apply to me since i'm not a producer. but i know that many of you out there also have your own bands. and, as you also produce, i'm sure its safe to bet that many of you "run" your projects in one way or another. so i was wondering... how do you deal with unmotivated band members?

I know that every situation is very different, with a hundred different factors playing into each relationship... from private/personal issues to addictions to general laziness. its always a unique situation. but given that, i've often found in threads that there arise some general principles or best practices that we all around the world can agree on.

so anyways, do you have band members who dont put in the hours? who seem to always do just enough, but who every other month you feel like giving them an ultimatum?

for me, it was so hard to find someone who i could clique with so well... who complements my style so well. who i am exciting about making music with. yet, half the time i'm so frustrated with them because as much as they say they want to be in this project, they never put in even a quarter of the effort i do. and yes, at times, it holds the project back. so with that in mind, i dont wanna say screw it and i'll just find someone else. but yet, i'm tired of running in the same circles.

have you found anything that you find helps in these types of situations?
 
In my experiences so far, when you pussy foot around these people it serves no purpose other than elongating the envitable unfortunately :( It depends on how far they are down the road, if its just a short dip in motivation then you can use some technqiues to perk them up.
 
Hey dude, very good thread!

I think, I can write something about this. It´s a current theme for me. How I can start..

I feel completely unpopular currently. I always try to push my band as good as possible, I make the productions, I spend hundreds of hours just for the band..the problem is, I am the only one with this real ambition in my band. I want to achieve my dream..I fuckin´only live one time in Life!!! Appreciation is absolutely missing and I don´t feel the Passion by some of my members! I have the opinion, that we only can achieve something, if all members have the passion and ambition. I think, that´s the formula for success. SUMMED POWER !!! But I stay alone and don´t come forward. The Singer is a diva, forgets his text, he makes trouble and his attitude is destructive. I´m very desperate..what da fuck should I do with this problem? The reason for my unpopularity in the band is, that I speak about this displeasures.
 
jrt12 said:
have you found anything that you find helps in these types of situations?
Click to expand...
nope...some people just don't have the drive, or they aren't as motivated as they think or lead on to believe. i've been in a few bands just cause there's nothing else around, this place is very small & musicians are hard to come by, but you just can't put all your heart into something you don't truly enjoy. it never came as a surprise to me when i stopped receiving calls to come to rehearsals. do what's best for the band i say, never held any grudges, even helped fill in between finding new replacements
 
I was in the same situation for the last 3 years.
And I was also the unpopular one who tried to start a discussion to get members to get active again. Never helped......

September 2006 we got a new deal for a record. I thought this would provide a new drive. Didn't help....

I've held meetings where we'd discribe what each member would do within periods of time to get our record done.
Nothing got done. We broke the recordcompany's deadline 3 (yes, three!!) times. The last time, in August 2008, I quite the band.

Since that time I'm more relaxed cause I'm not depending on others anymore. That took a lot of energy all those years. The band degraded themselves live for not praticing anymore, I couldn't deal with that.
The downside is I don't have a liveband anymore and someone else is singing on the new record. But thats cool. I have more time and money now to get into the real hobby; producing/mixing. Selling guitarstuff/amps now to get a DAW (Mac stuff).

So, how to deal with unmotivated? I don't know. The only thing I can say that it will only get worse through the years cause they will get maried (children) and get jobs.
 
KillDivision said:
I was in the same situation for the last 3 years.
And I was also the unpopular one who tried to start a discussion to get members to get active again. Never helped......

September 2006 we got a new deal for a record. I thought this would provide a new drive. Didn't help....

I've held meetings where we'd discribe what each member would do within periods of time to get our record done.
Nothing got done. We broke the recordcompany's deadline 3 (yes, three!!) times. The last time, in August 2008, I quite the band.

Since that time I'm more relaxed cause I'm not depending on others anymore. That took a lot of energy all those years. The band degraded themselves live for not praticing anymore, I couldn't deal with that.
The downside is I don't have a liveband anymore and someone else is singing on the new record. But thats cool. I have more time and money now to get into the real hobby; producing/mixing. Selling guitarstuff/amps now to get a DAW (Mac stuff).

So, how to deal with unmotivated? I don't know. The only thing I can say that it will only get worse through the years cause they will get maried (children) and get jobs.
Click to expand...


Damn..well written, dude. I feel totaly with you. I think, I´m just about to make the same decision like you did. It´s very sad, because I wanna play live absolutely. But I will wait and speak with my bandmembers first about this possible decision.
 
My one and only rule when dealing with band members: Show no mercy.

Seriously though, you shouldn't be afraid to really tell them how you feel.
If they take it personally, then you know that they probably wont ever become the professionals you seek to play with.
.. just don't yell. ;)

And i can relate to that with having to put out ultimatums, and ive basically said to my self that the band im in now, is the last band that wont be 100% mine.
Because i haven't met any other band members that want to compromise and really work on the band, which always ends up in someone pushing an ultimatum on someone, so i feel that its better to get people to play in your band that are aware of that your word is law.
I guess thats what happens when you have to deal with slackers all day long. ;P

Edit: Oh, the worst part about the band im in right now, is that the "creator/owner" of the band seems like he only wants to have a band so he can have some kind of a "rockstar"-status, which pisses me of like hell.
But it actually seems like he is getting more serious now, if not, il beat the shit out of him! ;)
 
Well, if the band isn't motivated, but it's fun to play in it, I don't bother doing anything really. It's usually fun to lay back and write songs slowly and have fun at rehearsals, and that's cool. If the band isn't motivated and it's not fun to play in it though, I just quit - I've only had to do it once so far though. It was pretty miserable, I was in the band for a year, and we could ONCE play Digging The Grave by Faith No More ALMOST completely. Yeah, and that was pretty much after we'd had practices for a year already. I think I quit next month, because we had a singer try out in the band, and I wanted to see what he was like. And yeah, he wasn't very good.

I'm also in a band that used to have a big motivation problem, so the band was formed again with a completely different lineup by the keyboardist and singer.
 
The whole reason to start playing in the first place(aside from monetary gain which if we're talking Metal here is pretty much null) is to HAVE FUN. That's my number one rule in music is if it's not fun and seems to be like work, then I'm not going to do it. If your bandmates start to suck the fun out of it on some Twilight status, you need to intervene and prevent a shitstorm.

I'm lucky that my little brother usually is involved in all my projects, so he's easy to get along with, but for outsiders, we gotta be REALLL friends before we play music together. My last REAL band we were all buddies and we would never fight.... I haven't been in a similar situation like that since and that was like 5 years ago. So basically I haven't really been in a band because too many musicians, I find, are completely in need of a serious beating :)
 
Just don't make the mistake I did. If you are going to fire someone, don't mull it over about how you are going to do it without hurting thier feelings. They are going to be pissed at you regardless, so just tell em straight up "this band will not continue with you".

The mistake I/we/whatever made (I say *I* because though it was an effort of a few of us, I was the one who had to step up to bat for it) was, against the advice of some folks here unfortunately, was try to end the band and reform without the people in question. Because I was the one who initiated the plan, I got to eat the most shit for it because one of the guys we were kicking out decided to hold my equipment hostage until I changed the plan to having him back in the band...thus, reinforcing the reason we kicked him out. I did end up getting the stuff back, at the request of the other guy who also got booted who thought the whole thing of holding onto my stuff was childish and figured not only that it was getting out of hand, but it was dragging him into it too since I was starting to have to threaten litigation over it.

I was then told that the dude was hoping we would "make amends"...meaning, placate him by putting him back in the band. Does two wrongs make a right? Yes, we made a poor decision in how we booted them. Yes, he acted very immature about it, regardless of how it was put in front of him. Now we're supposed to pretend it never happened? Um, no. Part of the reason we booted them the way we did was because we expected a retaliation because the bassist (the one who refused me to have my stuff back) pretty much had banked his success on us "making it big" and it was his source of attention: a 40-something y.o. hoping that the band, which had a bit of potential due to my expectations and ethics, would be his last chance at being a rockstar. When that wasn't going to pan out for him...when I "took that away" from him simply because I was the mouthpiece...he decided to throw a tantrum like a child and when I came to get the last of my gear (2-Peavey SP3's and my Iron Cobra double pedal), he shoved me out of the house and started saying that I needed to give him his share of the money we made which I pocketed...a last ditch attempt to stick it to me. Everyone else in the band seemed to know that we didn't make a whole lot of money and I was shelling out of pocket just to make shit happen because we couldn't afford it otherwise. I had kept decent track of how much we made and spent, but it must not have been good enough since he was either ignorant or trying to scam me for it...the other guys knew I kept a straight nose with the shit, so he had nobody to back him on it and therefore he got nothing.

So, lessons learned:
1.) If you are going to axe em, just do it. Don't be a dick, just say "your services are no longer needed"
2.) Make *ABSOLUTELY* sure you don't have anything else left behind where they can hold it over your head if they choose to wigg out.
3.) Document and save receipts for EVERYTHING, including what doesn't come from the band fund. EVERYTHING, don't decide the small stuff doesn't matter...EVERYTHING
If someone pays you, have a receipt book that not only you and the person paying can sign, but someone else in the band can sign too so nothing can fall back on you. If you pay for something out of pocket, make sure to document that with another person in the band. Cover your ass, it will save you the pain.
4.) Be weary of who you hire in the first place. It's better to have someone who is a good fit than a poor fit just to fill the position. It's better to have a position empty than have someone in it destructive to your vision.
5.) Band democracy doesn't work. Someone needs to be "in charge". That doesn't mean they have to be the one who is a dictator, but it means that while everyone can help make a decision, it's really down to 1-2 people to implement it. Take every successful band as an example: James/Lars, Steve Harris, Kerry/Jeff, Jon Shaeffer, Chuck Schuldiner, Dime/Vinnie, Peter Steele/Josh Silver, Dave Mustaine. All run by 1-2 people. It just works.
6.) If you are going to be the person in charge, delegate responsibility. If the responsibility isn't being upheld, don't take it personal but do make sure they know that the band can't go forward if everyone doesn't step up.
7.) Make sure everyone knows you will most likely never make it big, but if they do really want that to happen then they better get fucking real and quit waiting for it to fall in thier lap: make them push harder. If they just sit and wait for the fame and don't put any work in, let em know they are impeding and if it's gonna continue, they can be a star on thier own.
8.) If your band doesn't win a battle, advance in a competition, get picked to open for a national act, or whatever...dont' burn your bridges, and don't let other guys in the band burn the bridges behind your back: have your little *huddle* and bitch about it together, away from anyone else, and put it behind you. Look forward to the next opportunity.
9.) Remember you can't please everyone. Even when the rest of the band might think it's a good idea, don't be afraid to fight for a reason why it isn't. If one person doesn't like a decision, they can get over it or find another band. If it's you who doesn't like whats going on, do something about it or move on.
10.) Be friends, but remember the purpose. Bands are tough because there is a fine line between being a business and a friendship, and it's always swaying more one way than the other at any given time. Having multiple people in the group makes this more difficult. Do things together as friends, rather than a show-up-for-work attitude. Get work done that needs to get done, but make it as low-level of a chore as possible and remind everyone what the goals are. Encourage eachother. If you have to axe someone, make sure you let them know you still want to be friends even though the group isn't working out. If the band kicks you out, don't hold a grudge and swallow your pride: friends are better than enemies. If you can't be friends with any number of them, just ignore them or keep things short.
11.) Never compete for popularity within the band. If someone seems like they need to have a bunch of attention, let them have it. Let your actions speak louder than thiers. If you are more down to earth and show you are a hard worker, the one who is a demanding dick smoke who doesn't put in the work might get more attention at first but it will be from the fake people who just want to get in the show for free and don't appreciate what you are working for. Be humble and your reputation will precede you.
 
Most things are easily ruined by unclear communication. If your bandmates don't know that direct, honest speech is not meant to be taken as an insult until the phrase "and, in conclusion, you're a fuckhead" is used as the ending, make that clear now.

Lay ground rules. Not guidelines, not suggestions, rules. Make it clear that violation of any rule, whether intentionally or through utter incompetence (and emphasize that incompetence is NOT a virtue or an excuse) will result in very bad things. Ground rules must cover expectations and basic etiquette and anything you consider necessary. I cannot stress enough that failing to follow rules because of incompetence is NOT to be accepted as an excuse... even for bassists. If you let "Sorry, bra, I didn't know rimshots were a bad idea when you're shoving your head under my kit" slide, everything will be ruined forever... if someone tries to use their own stupidity to bail them out, that's not an excuse - that's a broken rule and stupidity, and make sure they know that both things will be held against them.

Sometimes, no drummer is better than a bad drummer... substitute any other musician in place of drummer.

This isn't coming from band experience so much as experience from teaching, tutoring, collaborating professionally, taking on 'apprentices', and all sorts of other bad ideas. Always look for loopholes yourself (try to fucking HATE your rules when you're testing them for consistency) before implementing rules, or you'll be sorry.

Jeff
 
thats a great thread, i´m not in the situation right now, but i have been, and this always ended up that i quited the band!
now, since a few years, i´m working together with my wife only, we are writting together our songs, jams, polish them, etc.
we dont have a "band" yet, but we are both 100% in our music, that way runs so smoothly, still its alot of work behind making music, but its a very motivitating when you know that you arent alone!!

When we have finished our songs, we seek some musicians (drummer, bass, 2nd guitar) who wants to play with us, touring, and record the cds, its not important from which corner of the earth they are, as long as they play good and are 100% with us.
i´m very optimistic that this will work, because usually, when you have good songs and a way you wanna go, alot of people wanna join.

There are many musicians in the world that just want to do music and want to live of that, and they are happy when they meet another with the same vision and then go the way together.

so stop wasting your time with unmotivated bandmates, or people that share not the same vision than you.

We have to understand that for some people making music is just a hobby and only a fun thing. but for other ones, like me, making music is a life thing, and i work very hard so that someday i can live of that and only do that. dont get me wrong of course fun while making music is very important, also for me, but its not fun only.
and btw, this forum is absolutly great, i joined not so long ago, and this is my aprox, 9 post. but, i have read so much good advises here, and learnt so much, its more than words can say

cheers
exoslime
 
exoslime said:
thats a great thread, i´m not in the situation right now, but i have been, and this always ended up that i quited the band!
now, since a few years, i´m working together with my wife only, we are writting together our songs, jams, polish them, etc.
we dont have a "band" yet, but we are both 100% in our music, that way runs so smoothly, still its alot of work behind making music, but its a very motivitating when you know that you arent alone!!

When we have finished our songs, we seek some musicians (drummer, bass, 2nd guitar) who wants to play with us, touring, and record the cds, its not important from which corner of the earth they are, as long as they play good and are 100% with us.
i´m very optimistic that this will work, because usually, when you have good songs and a way you wanna go, alot of people wanna join.

There are many musicians in the world that just want to do music and want to live of that, and they are happy when they meet another with the same vision and then go the way together.

so stop wasting your time with unmotivated bandmates, or people that share not the same vision than you.

We have to understand that for some people making music is just a hobby and only a fun thing. but for other ones, like me, making music is a life thing, and i work very hard so that someday i can live of that and only do that. dont get me wrong of course fun while making music is very important, also for me, but its not fun only.
and btw, this forum is absolutly great, i joined not so long ago, and this is my aprox, 9 post. but, i have read so much good advises here, and learnt so much, its more than words can say

cheers
exoslime
Click to expand...

Welcome to the forum, man :headbang:

And

+100000

For your comment. You´re damn right.
 
Exoslime is right! Do what I did: start a project, do all the music yourself, record everything yourself, do all the artwork yourself. THEN get musicians. Make sure they know that they are replaceable live musicians with possible input.

I have never had any problems that couldn't be solved by simply replacing the person.
 
I always believed in teamspirit and Cohesion. I can´t stand this "shrug mentality" anymore. I live for the music and I work so passionate and hard for this. Appreciation = 0.
I wanna make music with people, who has the same dreams and PASSION. And I think, it´s not wrong to watch beyond the borders of your own country. I will really think about it. And @Executioner213 thanks for sharing your wise thoughts and experience. I appreciate it a lot.
 
Ok, my story: In my experience all depends on the type of character the bandmembers have.

The last band I quit was because I'm a sucker for collective writing and arranging. In this case it turned out that I became the one who arranged all the stuff, the singer did the vocallines and basic chords, and then I spent hours on 'suggesting' the other members what to play, hoping it would ignite their own inspiration. But it turned out that everybody was waiting for me to do the hard work after the basic chordprogression were laid down by the singer, they just followed every suggestion I made, without much effort on their side. The result was nice, we hade some great gigs, but I didn't like everybody looking proud with themselves about the hours I put in.

Since I left the band it has become a backgroundbuzz. They rehearse a bit, flutter around with ideas, but no hard work is put in anymore. And they don't seem to understand why. I'm not talking bout amateurs here, all are very gifted. But it's not in their character to listen to the whole of the sound of a song, when left alone they just play the part they like in an arrangement, and don't seem to care that much about the total sound.

For me it's a reason to steer away from bands, these people could play very good, but still they didn't seem to understand what it takes to become a whole, an olied machine on stage. They just wait until someone tells them what to do, and they play that perfectly. But without the drive, the urge, the curiousity to make it really good.

a Band needs musicians who will search for improvement of the total sound, beyond their own instruments. Only in a situation like that, a band becomes the total orgy it should be.

These were all nice, friendly people to be with. No arguments, no shouting, no shit about money or whatever. Just no ambition to perform beyond their own (great) skills. And no clue why I left them, because all was going so nicely.

My next 'project' will be a collaboration with two good friends, both of them know how to record albums (one for a living, the other is just good at it). I think we'll put out some great work, not great in the sense that we'll go for worlddomination, but like in 'great times laughing our asses off'. I'm really looking forward to that.
 
Chryst Krispies said:
The whole reason to start playing in the first place(aside from monetary gain which if we're talking Metal here is pretty much null) is to HAVE FUN. That's my number one rule in music is if it's not fun and seems to be like work, then I'm not going to do it.
Click to expand...

Here's my take on fun vs. work. I've heard this comment a lot from various people in bands. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about having a relaxed envorinment, but sometimes making good music is work. Nowadays when I hear someone say, "If it starts to feel like work, I'm out" I can't help but wonder if they are going to be a lazy worthless sack of shit. Is he going to cry when we try to solidify a song arrangement? Or maybe he'll bail when we try and make him quad-track guitars. :cry:

I guess what I'm saying is, if someone says that and they're a kickass musician, you might not have anything to worry about. If they say that, but their skills are questionable, you know they will not be putting in much "work" to get any better. I think it's safe to say that the majority of musician's out there have NO IDEA how much work it takes to get 5 dudes in a band to play tight enough to make a kickass recording.
 
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