Death - The sound of perseverance
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anonymousnick2001
World's Greatest Vocalist
Demiurge
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"Lonely and sexually deprived Demiurge"... You Ultimate Metal asshats really aren't very good at insulting people, are you? If you added something pertinent to the conversation once in a while, maybe your remarks would seem more caustic. As it currently stands, they seem puerile and invidious.
I didn't make myself look like an idiot. TSOP is structurally and ideologically similar to pop music. It is still a death metal-ish album though, so it fails to qualify. Only vindictive, intellectually insecure dumbfucks such as yourselves would think such an exaggeration makes me look like an idiot.
Melody is neither good nor bad, it is a technique. Its worth is determined by how it is implemented.
The wankery of TSOP has been delineated ad nauseam in this topic over the past couple days. Finally, Anonymousnick seems to grasp the concept somewhat. He's either not the sharpest knife in the drawer or he just conceded because things weren't going well. I give him credit for slipping in a backhanded comment about melody. In today's lesson, we learn that most metal has melody. In fact, almost everything anyone puts out these days is sappily melodic and not a whole lot more.
I didn't make myself look like an idiot. TSOP is structurally and ideologically similar to pop music. It is still a death metal-ish album though, so it fails to qualify. Only vindictive, intellectually insecure dumbfucks such as yourselves would think such an exaggeration makes me look like an idiot.
Melody is neither good nor bad, it is a technique. Its worth is determined by how it is implemented.
The wankery of TSOP has been delineated ad nauseam in this topic over the past couple days. Finally, Anonymousnick seems to grasp the concept somewhat. He's either not the sharpest knife in the drawer or he just conceded because things weren't going well. I give him credit for slipping in a backhanded comment about melody. In today's lesson, we learn that most metal has melody. In fact, almost everything anyone puts out these days is sappily melodic and not a whole lot more.
anonymousnick2001
World's Greatest Vocalist
"Melody is neither good nor bad, it is a technique."
Just listen to this guy. What a waste of oxygen.
Amazing how in his, I presume, five whole minutes of musical study, he came to conclude that melody is a technique. Melody is inherent. It exists. A piece can be tonal or atonal, but no matter what you do, you're gonna have melody. It's how the melody is implemented that determines whether the melody is catchy, dissonant, or just a harmony or undercurrent to another musical sentence.
I like TSOP because Chuck manages to insert positively catchy, listenable, and omnipresent melodies into nearly every set of notes he plays. Be it a wanking/noodling solo or a lead guitar part, regardless. And he even toys around with an atonal harmonic once or twice as well, although they are more prevalent on Symbolic.
We have already ascertained that TSOP fits some conventional structure. Fine. I have yet to see how this instantly limits a piece from being the least bit groundbreaking. Granted, TSOP might not be so, but I find a great deal of difference between early Atheist and the style of this album.
The only similarity is in the randomness of the playing style. Where both Shaefer and Schuldiner manage to compose chaotic pieces of music where instruments appear and disappear, the bass is independent as it fills in gaps between guitar bursts, and in the end they are both death/thrash albums(i.e. vocal style and riffing similarites). However, take out the noodling in TSOP, and it sounds like a highly melodic version of Spiritual Healing or a Sepultura album from that time. NOT Atheist. And the only comparisons to Cynic can be found on Human, and to ITP to a lesser degree. I'll leave it to you to discover the obvious "why?" TSOP is only chaotic because the progressive nature of the album and the tendencies of the musicians at hand(in this case, the insane drummign style of Richard Christy). The similarities between TSOP and Symbloic are much more apparent. It is simply an extension of Symbolic's sound, developed in a fashion that could display Christy's style and chops.
That settles it then. The few similarities I mentioned are more than likely coincidental, seeing as how both bands originated from the same scene and developed at a similar time. I find the lack of respect for TSOP appalling.
Just listen to this guy. What a waste of oxygen.
Amazing how in his, I presume, five whole minutes of musical study, he came to conclude that melody is a technique. Melody is inherent. It exists. A piece can be tonal or atonal, but no matter what you do, you're gonna have melody. It's how the melody is implemented that determines whether the melody is catchy, dissonant, or just a harmony or undercurrent to another musical sentence.
I like TSOP because Chuck manages to insert positively catchy, listenable, and omnipresent melodies into nearly every set of notes he plays. Be it a wanking/noodling solo or a lead guitar part, regardless. And he even toys around with an atonal harmonic once or twice as well, although they are more prevalent on Symbolic.
We have already ascertained that TSOP fits some conventional structure. Fine. I have yet to see how this instantly limits a piece from being the least bit groundbreaking. Granted, TSOP might not be so, but I find a great deal of difference between early Atheist and the style of this album.
The only similarity is in the randomness of the playing style. Where both Shaefer and Schuldiner manage to compose chaotic pieces of music where instruments appear and disappear, the bass is independent as it fills in gaps between guitar bursts, and in the end they are both death/thrash albums(i.e. vocal style and riffing similarites). However, take out the noodling in TSOP, and it sounds like a highly melodic version of Spiritual Healing or a Sepultura album from that time. NOT Atheist. And the only comparisons to Cynic can be found on Human, and to ITP to a lesser degree. I'll leave it to you to discover the obvious "why?" TSOP is only chaotic because the progressive nature of the album and the tendencies of the musicians at hand(in this case, the insane drummign style of Richard Christy). The similarities between TSOP and Symbloic are much more apparent. It is simply an extension of Symbolic's sound, developed in a fashion that could display Christy's style and chops.
That settles it then. The few similarities I mentioned are more than likely coincidental, seeing as how both bands originated from the same scene and developed at a similar time. I find the lack of respect for TSOP appalling.
Coroner
I can't emphasize this enough. If you want to know the roots of later Death, listen to Coroner (and the Cynic demos).
I can't emphasize this enough. If you want to know the roots of later Death, listen to Coroner (and the Cynic demos).
Demiurge
This user has no title
I communicate within the nomenclature of my audience. Most metalheads identify melodic music as music based in hookish, open harmonies. Furthermore, I assumed you to be such a person when you proclaimed your fondness for "melodic metal". Thus the use of melody in that context. Logical, no?
Demiurge
This user has no title
There is a big difference between Atheist and TSOP, Atheist's music is linear for the most part, Death's is recursive. TSOP is chaotic because it's circular music that is constantly interrupted by instrusive, technical interludes. These structural interruptions create the perception of chaos. If you took them out, you'd have a mediocre, catchy, irrelevant death metal album. But with them, you have something abjectly horrendous.
The point is not that death is an exact copy of Cynic and Coroner. Rather, it's that death superficially tacked many of the progressive, technical elements of these bands onto a simple, populist death metal album. As can be expected, it comes off as pointless wankery since it is but a veneer.
I don't see how you can call rock-based death metal that happens to have some technical solos and bridges "progressive".
Madonna manages to craft catchy music, would you say it is of high quality?
The point is not that death is an exact copy of Cynic and Coroner. Rather, it's that death superficially tacked many of the progressive, technical elements of these bands onto a simple, populist death metal album. As can be expected, it comes off as pointless wankery since it is but a veneer.
I don't see how you can call rock-based death metal that happens to have some technical solos and bridges "progressive".
Madonna manages to craft catchy music, would you say it is of high quality?
Demiurge
This user has no title
SculptedCold
-scented manbeef-
The exaggeration was a typical expression of unchecked 'elitist' arrogance, and even if it was not intentionally so on your part, it is still a casual remark that serves only to undermine your credibility. Exaggerations in objective context usually made people look silly; it's generally a much more informal technique, and you're certainly not going to convince anyone by using it as 'effect'.Demiurge said:
Well, anyway, if being an intellectually insecure dumbfuck excludes the possibility of being an informed but pathetically inimical and arrogant intellect, then i'd much rather be the former thankyou. An illusion of lofty authority derived from and dependent on one's own intellect isn't worth the price of being a misanthrope in my view.
anonymousnick2001
World's Greatest Vocalist
By my definition of progressive, yes. It hadn't been done before in the way Chuck did it. And I doubt many could replicate it. I've tried. I can't drum more than two seconds of Christy on that album. I imagine the guitarwork is likewise.Demiurge said:
And I believe that Madonna's better and catchier work is very high quality. I don't happen to find Like A Virgin or Material Girl catchy, and those happen to be her least cerebral material. However, ultra-catchy songs such as Like A Prayer and Ray Of Light, well...yeah, it's good.
It might seem that way, but I'm not that naive. But I find hooks in everything. If I say something doesn't have a hook, it's probably atonal. And even atonal music has hooks. The hooks exist in the rhythms. Bands like Hatebreed, or Roots-era Sepultura, or pre-1998 Suffocation, are all quite catchy, but very atonal at the same time.Demiurge said:
I have trouble finding melodic music that has no hook. And I repeat, even atonal music has hooks. If a piece exists that is jam-packed in melody, and no hooks, the music is probably 12-tone music or something. Or played in an odd harmonic-minor scale. And melody is defined as musical notes or tones in agreeable succession. Generally, agreeable means pleasing, or catchy. And melodies simply exist. So if a band can will their melodies so they sound pleasing, I respect them even more, especially if the background music is heavy and chaotic. Hence why I love TSOP.
Demiurge
This user has no title
The notion that "progressive" has something to do with difficulty to play is simply fallacious. Somehow, you've confused "instrumentally technical" with "progressive". TSOP is traditional, not progressive. It had been done that way by nearly every preceding metal band. The elements you single out as progressive are superficial ones, it's the composition that is most important. Death took basic, circular structures and added technical bridges and solos similar to those used by Cynic, Atheist, and Coroner. It's disjointed and idiotic. It panders to pseudo-intellectuals who couldn't care less about coherence, but get hardons while contemplating how difficult some disruptive solo is to play.
You listen to music on a simple level. You like ear candy, TSOP is a compositional disaster, but it's easy listening and it's rock; it's very accessible. I've no problem with this, just don't try to make a qualitative argument based on something being fun.
Realize that atonality has nothing to do with rhythm or structure. It refers to a lack of a tonal center! The metal bands you mention aren't exactly atonal. In the case of Suffocation, I'd say harmonically ambiguous and extensively chromatic is more like it. For true atonality, look to serialism. It's not pitch centric.
You listen to music on a simple level. You like ear candy, TSOP is a compositional disaster, but it's easy listening and it's rock; it's very accessible. I've no problem with this, just don't try to make a qualitative argument based on something being fun.
Realize that atonality has nothing to do with rhythm or structure. It refers to a lack of a tonal center! The metal bands you mention aren't exactly atonal. In the case of Suffocation, I'd say harmonically ambiguous and extensively chromatic is more like it. For true atonality, look to serialism. It's not pitch centric.
SpiritCrusherBTR
Master Of The Rings
Fucking amazing album. One of my very favorite ever, one of Death's best. This album shows the absolute genious of Chuck Schuldiner as pretty much all Death albums do and the Control Denied album. RIP, man...we love you!
Demiurge
This user has no title
Demiurge
This user has no title
Oh, and to clarify something, metal is melodic but not often catchy. Catchy music is defined as easily remembered, as if to hum. Pop music is catchy, Demilich is not. This has a lot to do with the use of open harmony and a verse/chorus pattern.
Likewise, a hook is a catchy motif or refrain that is often repeated. I wouldn't say metal was hook-laden, with the exception of the rockish bands. Death for example.... By their very nature, circular compositions are more hook-ish than linear ones.
TSOP is relatively catchy, it'd be catchier sans the noodling. Note the open harmony & structure.
"Catchy" is not a qualitative trait.
Likewise, a hook is a catchy motif or refrain that is often repeated. I wouldn't say metal was hook-laden, with the exception of the rockish bands. Death for example.... By their very nature, circular compositions are more hook-ish than linear ones.
TSOP is relatively catchy, it'd be catchier sans the noodling. Note the open harmony & structure.
"Catchy" is not a qualitative trait.
SpiritCrusherBTR
Master Of The Rings
Demiurge said:
You seem rather bitter. I have not said anything bad to you. So if I am a huge fan? Should this be something held against me. You get into your very technical talk...quite honestly I don't give a shit what you call it. It's Heavy Metal and it kicks ass is all that matters. Lighten up a little man, I'm sure it'll make your life much easier.
Demiurge
This user has no title
SculptedCold
-scented manbeef-
why? Because they are generally enthusiastic about what they find pleasing? Hehe, what's wrong with that? =) None of us are going to change the world anyway!
Demiurge
This user has no title
SculptedCold said:
Not at all, I hate that they have a nasty proclivity for lauding music just because it's metal, not necessarily because it's quality.
SculptedCold
-scented manbeef-
Agreed. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately?), our quality control departments aren't all gathered under one authoritative roof.
Demiurge
This user has no title
The problem lies with individuals who appreciate a general aesthetic but fail to grasp its ideological merits(and its motivation). These people are destined to be metalheads or something similar. Their critical paradigm is "is it metal?"
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