Do you consider suicide a selfish act?
- Thread starter S4R
- Start date
Sadistik
Let me die in solitude...
Well, the final point of life is death, so I don't think hurrying it along is that selfish......
In other words you don't give a fuck if you hurt someone else if you do it.
And you might answer, why should you? It's your life.
Well, that's what being selfish is, looking no further than to yourself.
Sorry for putting words in your mouth, but it's the impression I get from you.
Juggie
Member
did the terrorist who hijacked the 4 air planes that where involved in the sept 11th attacks have mental conditions?
Blackspirit
there are no words left
How do you know?
How do you know if anyone care about you?
When you're feeling so low about yourself and your
situation that you want to commit suicide, you're
not able to see if someone "gives a fuck" or not....
Just a thought....
Juggie
Member
why is it funny? i just want a single respones not a flood/flame war
but other than that, its kinda sad you wernt in the building..would it be funny then?
MetalManCPA
Papa Opeth
My simple answer is no.
I've learned quite a bit about mental health issues over the past year, and one thing for certain is that each case is purely individualistic, with the slightest difference between cases potentially making a huge impact.
The mix of chemical and environmental issues bubble in each and every one of us. That "line" the suicidal cross exists in you and me, but for the non-suicidal (like myself), they have built in coping skills to fend off crossing that "line".
Why can one person deal with the death of a loved one, while the next person can't? Why do people kill themselves to escape a life which they percieve to be impossible to survive in? The mind is a pretty messed up place.
What one person thinks is normal, the next may think is totally irrational. I personally think the "selfish" perspective doesn't hold water. Love can't always prevent someone from killing themselves. I think many know that people around them care, but that doesn't make their perceived situation any better. I can come up with many reasons why one could not "take it", and to some people, it seems impossible that someone could kill themselves for these reasons : debt, loss of loved one, no self esteem, sees self as ugly, sees self as stupid, stress, etc. Also, many people have combinations of mental illness - depression, anxiety, eating disorder, etc etc.
I've seen people in hospitals because their family is messed up, there was a past trauma, or just a chemical imbalance. I've seen people get more messed up because of too much therapy, or too many medications. They get disgusted because nothing has worked, then they believe nothing can work, so why go on? I can not believe that suicide is an act of selfishness - I believe these people have so much crap inside of them, that they just can't wade through it any longer. It becomes like quicksand, and it envelopes them.
I've learned quite a bit about mental health issues over the past year, and one thing for certain is that each case is purely individualistic, with the slightest difference between cases potentially making a huge impact.
The mix of chemical and environmental issues bubble in each and every one of us. That "line" the suicidal cross exists in you and me, but for the non-suicidal (like myself), they have built in coping skills to fend off crossing that "line".
Why can one person deal with the death of a loved one, while the next person can't? Why do people kill themselves to escape a life which they percieve to be impossible to survive in? The mind is a pretty messed up place.
What one person thinks is normal, the next may think is totally irrational. I personally think the "selfish" perspective doesn't hold water. Love can't always prevent someone from killing themselves. I think many know that people around them care, but that doesn't make their perceived situation any better. I can come up with many reasons why one could not "take it", and to some people, it seems impossible that someone could kill themselves for these reasons : debt, loss of loved one, no self esteem, sees self as ugly, sees self as stupid, stress, etc. Also, many people have combinations of mental illness - depression, anxiety, eating disorder, etc etc.
I've seen people in hospitals because their family is messed up, there was a past trauma, or just a chemical imbalance. I've seen people get more messed up because of too much therapy, or too many medications. They get disgusted because nothing has worked, then they believe nothing can work, so why go on? I can not believe that suicide is an act of selfishness - I believe these people have so much crap inside of them, that they just can't wade through it any longer. It becomes like quicksand, and it envelopes them.
Melancholia
Eternal daydreamer
I think suicide is the most extreme expression of self-destructive behaviour So its actually a way of harming yourself
The word selfish somehow implies that the person is acting that way on purpose . People suffering from depression arent actually able to see things clearly--->They arent able to see the consequences.... I would label them selfish if they had indeed thought what pain they would cause and said I dont give a damn .. but actually this is not the case of depressed people
I am with Soul4raziel here .. Depression is actually an emotional disorder, illness sounds a bit heavy to me ; ) , but anyway the point is that people suffering for depression actually cant think rationally . As SoulRaziel said clinical depression is sth else,not those feelings of extreme sadness we all get from time to time
Clinical depression is characterized by the existence of some certain symptoms and that these symptoms have a certain duration.Being depressed means that the person is suffering from some kind of irrational/pathological sadness.The person feels that he isnt able to feel happy or laugh even when something joyful happens in his life. He lacks self-esteem In more heavy cases he starts feeling that he is unbearable pain and torment and that every thing is in vain, that his situation will never change etc Of course every person is different and consequently every case is different and also there are several types of depression,but generally speaking the person feels worthless and actually doesnt show interest for his life and no longer finds enjoyable things in his life,has suicidal thoughts and sometimes is suffering from stress and other symptoms (like problems in sleep etc) is that really normal???? NO
A person suffering from all these cant actually be so balanced as many of you think If he/she was able to think estimate rationally his situation he/she wouldnt end up commiting suicide . Pure and simple .
Also,not all depressed people attempt suicide and as well a person commiting suicide is not necessarily a depressed person, but it is true that suicidal people are somehow in some kind of conflict with their environment (like hard family problems, problems at work etc )
We cant say those people are selfish its at least unfair They are people who are suffering and actually dont intend to harm anybody but themselves. And even if their death will cause a lot of trouble to so many other people,they are just not able to see this. Whether we like it or not, depression is a disorder,it affects ones way of thinking. The person tends to see only the negative side of things
If they were able to see things from some other aspect they wouldnt commit suicide
We all think we could help suicidal people but the truth is that friends and people who care cant help a lot when they have to deal with a person who is considering killing himself. I think this happens because we arent able to see things the way he sees them,realise why he thinks that way and try to make him change their way of thinking Furthermore it is not rare that the people who are close to a suicidal person fail to see the SOS signals they are sending or even somehow dont realise that the person needs real help . It may sound absurd, but it is possible For example imagine a person that decides to talk about his awful state or his feeling of melancholy and his friends starts saying him oh,theres nothing wrong with you..Its your idea just etc etc do you really think that this person would ever dare to speak to his friend about his awful feeling again??? No way .. People in dont need to hear that they are fine etc; they do know that they are not fine at all .
Generally I think, a hug and empathy can help a lot but treatment by a professional is needed but how easy is it to force a person go to a shrink?
Personally, if a close person of mine committed suicide, I would never blame him/her as selfish I would respect his last choice and feel deeply sad that this person wasnt actually helped in an effective way.
Russell
__
I consider them the opposite - some-one who self harms wants to live, someone who commits suicide wants to die.
Mayb i didn't clarify myself enough here, I think it depends on the degree of depression, I don't tthink it suddenly changes from "normal" to clinical, i think they are the same thing, just to different degree's. If you are suicidal i think it could be classed as a disorder (as u said), not an illness
You see, I class these sympotms as those of extreme depresswion, not a different disroder all together
2 things, just out of interest, would you blame yourself for not having done nething, and why in all cases but the above do you refer to a man when talking about depression? I'm not having a go, I just am interested
Ugh. What a depressing topic.
"Ya know what I hate?" -Him
"Everything." -Me
"Yep. You're right." -Him
Someone said, "You know how hard it is to get someone to a shrink?" Yes!! I do. I do. It's not going to happen in this lifetime, I'll tell ya that much. My buddy ol' pal doesn't want to be part of this system/society. I think my first attempt to say that I thought maybe it'd be good to give medication/therapy a chance, with much concern, brought on this question - "Why should I have to go to a doctor and take pills because this world is fucked up?!" It's not a physical problem, financial stress or even work because he loves his job. It's society. The rules you have to play by, even if it only means hurting yourself if you don't. He hates...HATES playing "the game."
A major problem is laws like the seat belt law. Laws the come with their OWN punishment. Why should the government step in here, where if you're too stupid to do this or that for your own safety, then this "crime" comes with it's own punishment. Those useless laws. I've never noticed how many laws come with there own punishment. It's like the US is trying to cradle its citizens like babies. Caring for them until the day we die.
O'god. Am I making any sense? I myself have given suicide thought and I wouldn't do it. I'd just leave wherever I was and start fresh. Like (you know who you are) said, it's like a second life. If things get that bad for me...(I'm sorry but) I will endure.
I read online all about depression and the different types. I've been listening and understanding my buddies thoughts and way of thinking for a long time. I hope he knows that understand him more than anyone alive. Even if he does though, I know he still feels alone. He once said, "I could be sitting right next to you, but I still feel completely alone."
Now, if hearing that didn't make me go kill myself, I don't think anything will. I understand what metalmancpa said sort of like, "Love can't always keep someone from killing themselves." I actually thought that would do the trick. I see now it takes a lot more than that! The last outburst he had was just before summer.
"Ya know what I hate?" -Him
"Everything." -Me
"Yep. You're right." -Him
Someone said, "You know how hard it is to get someone to a shrink?" Yes!! I do. I do. It's not going to happen in this lifetime, I'll tell ya that much. My buddy ol' pal doesn't want to be part of this system/society. I think my first attempt to say that I thought maybe it'd be good to give medication/therapy a chance, with much concern, brought on this question - "Why should I have to go to a doctor and take pills because this world is fucked up?!" It's not a physical problem, financial stress or even work because he loves his job. It's society. The rules you have to play by, even if it only means hurting yourself if you don't. He hates...HATES playing "the game."
A major problem is laws like the seat belt law. Laws the come with their OWN punishment. Why should the government step in here, where if you're too stupid to do this or that for your own safety, then this "crime" comes with it's own punishment. Those useless laws. I've never noticed how many laws come with there own punishment. It's like the US is trying to cradle its citizens like babies. Caring for them until the day we die.
O'god. Am I making any sense? I myself have given suicide thought and I wouldn't do it. I'd just leave wherever I was and start fresh. Like (you know who you are) said, it's like a second life. If things get that bad for me...(I'm sorry but) I will endure.
I read online all about depression and the different types. I've been listening and understanding my buddies thoughts and way of thinking for a long time. I hope he knows that understand him more than anyone alive. Even if he does though, I know he still feels alone. He once said, "I could be sitting right next to you, but I still feel completely alone."
Now, if hearing that didn't make me go kill myself, I don't think anything will. I understand what metalmancpa said sort of like, "Love can't always keep someone from killing themselves." I actually thought that would do the trick. I see now it takes a lot more than that! The last outburst he had was just before summer.
Melancholia
Eternal daydreamer
I consider them the opposite - some-one who self harms wants to live, someone who commits suicide wants to die.
To my mind in both cases we have to deal with self-destructive behaviour... One intends to harm oneself,but to a different degree in each case.... Killing oneself is a way of harming oneself...Self-destructive behaviour is destructive whether it aims at just harming or killing oneself. Well,we just have a different way of defining those terms ; )
Mayb i didn't clarify myself enough here, I think it depends on the degree of depression, I don't tthink it suddenly changes from "normal" to clinical, i think they are the same thing, just to different degree's. If you are suicidal i think it could be classed as a disorder (as u said), not an illness
I agree with the first sentence and disagree with the second
Indeed there are several types of depression and one can be depressed to different levels.... In light cases of depression a person just feels unable to feel any pleasure in life.In worst and harder cases the person feels that somehow he/she no longer has control of his/her one life.....Between those two degrees there are many others.... And you're right of course depression doesn't pop-up suddenly... I just meant that just feeling depressed for a couple of days won't necessarily be categorized as depression by a shrink.. except if you have some certain symptoms for a certain period of times....
Most heavily depressed people have suicidal thoughts,yet there are depressed people who don\t have such thoughts.I mean depression is a disorder both in light and heavy cases. It is not the suicidal thoughts that gives to depression the label "disorder".Actually the word depression doesn't always indicates that sth is totally pathological,it just indicates that something isn't just as it should be.. i mean it's not such a heavy word....
2 things, just out of interest, would you blame yourself for not having done nething, and why in all cases but the above do you refer to a man when talking about depression? I'm not having a go, I just am interested
If I knew that something was wrong i wouldn't just sit doing nothing... I would try talk with this person and persuade him go talk with a professional..
But if i had no idea,no i wouldn't feel guilty
Guilty I would feel if i had noticed something and foolishly refused to see things the way they really were.....
as for the him thing....Well,strangely enough I don't know.... I even noticed it myself ; )
hmmmm it's something coming from the depths of my subconscious.....
I think it's just hmmm a stupid translation from greek... when we are speaking generally we use a word that indicates both sexes,but is actually a masculine word.....hehe
I have heard that women are more prone to depression,so maybe we should use "she" instead
Russell
__
Ugh, what a cheerfull topic this is, oh well
About the self harm, yes one is an extremity of the other, but I'm talking about the person, and that is, I think where they are the opposite. Self harmers want to live (just feel pain, make themself feel alive or whatever reasons), where as people who are suicidal don't, the just want an ending. Both are escapes, but in completely different ways.
Gah, clarity isn't one of my good points But i think we're basically approaching this problem from different sides and agreeing But I think the word depression is too general neway
But if you tried and they still commited suicide?
Heh, I was just wondering if it was deliberate or not. Obviously ur subconcious is a man And its true, women are more prone to depression and self harm, but men (late teens early 20's) have the highest suicide rates (can u have them? U know what I mean), so mayb you should hange betweens he's and she's depending on what we're tlaking about
About the self harm, yes one is an extremity of the other, but I'm talking about the person, and that is, I think where they are the opposite. Self harmers want to live (just feel pain, make themself feel alive or whatever reasons), where as people who are suicidal don't, the just want an ending. Both are escapes, but in completely different ways.
Gah, clarity isn't one of my good points
But i think we're basically approaching this problem from different sides and agreeing But I think the word depression is too general neway But if you tried and they still commited suicide?
Heh, I was just wondering if it was deliberate or not. Obviously ur subconcious is a man
And its true, women are more prone to depression and self harm, but men (late teens early 20's) have the highest suicide rates (can u have them? U know what I mean), so mayb you should hange betweens he's and she's depending on what we're tlaking about
Melancholia
Eternal daydreamer
Originally posted by godisanathiest
But if you tried and they still commited suicide?
Heh, I was just wondering if it was deliberate or not. Obviously ur subconcious is a man
well......if they commited suicide despite my trying.... I still wouldn't feel guilty.. I mean i would have tried much and it wouldn't have been my fault if they just couldn't make it.I would respect their last choice and realised that indeed they were having a really painful time..... I wouldn't blame them as selfish or myself as insensitive......
Hehe generalizations are bad....but also super analyzing is veeeeeeeery bad especially when you are posting at the opeth board
If we start changing between she and he our posts will become longer than satori's
Russell
__
MetalManCPA
Papa Opeth
Do you cite this difference from being close to someone who has these issues? I'm asking because I see it differently, plus, I am dealing with this issue currently with a family member.
What if a self-harmer is also suicidal? Then where does the difference lie? I see a self-harmer inflicting pains for a potential variety of reason : for instance, it is known that cutting releases a chemical which actually soothes/relieves the person; it could actually be part habitual - kind of an addiction; but it is always a sign that that person is in distress (even though that person doesn't see the self-harming as that big of a deal). The suicidal piece is just another level of distress, although if acted out, obviously the suicide is an ending, whereas the self-harming is not.
Both are not necessarily an escape either - especially the self-harming. Of course you escape if you kill yourself, although that isn't necessarily the thought process of the suicidal. I've heard the term "coping skills" way to much this past year. Self-harming can be a twisted coping skill for the person looking for relief. So, too, can suicide. Just because you and I can deal with pressure, the breaking point of the suicidal is much different. Also, many people dealing with this illness have an irrational thought process.
All I am saying is it is so complicated and individualistic, that there really aren't too many generalitites from case to case. Each person brings to the table an entirely different set of circumstances which brought him/her to this illness. Personally, I am weary dealing with it (even though this could go on for years).
Russell
__
I have personal experience yes
Yub, cutting does that (I read a paper on it) , so does ne pain (self harm isn't neccesarily cutting), it can have many effects i think, and it does become an addiction - similar to drugs in many ways
I think self harm can be several things. It can be an escape, make you feel good, a punishment - make you feel like you have been punished for some imaginary wrongs, make you feel cleansed, make you feel alive, make you feel you're worth sumthing. Many self harmers also have boderline personality disorder i read
I agree, it is a very personal thing - it largely depends on who's doing it what reasons they do it 4, and, much as I hate to be pessimistic, it probably will go on for years (th of course I don't know the circumstances)
Check ur PM (in a min) cheers
Russell
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