Do you consider suicide a selfish act?

[S4R]

Originally posted by godisanathiest
Ugh, what a cheerfull topic this is, oh well

About the self harm, yes one is an extremity of the other, but I'm talking about the person, and that is, I think where they are the opposite. Self harmers want to live (just feel pain, make themself feel alive or whatever reasons), where as people who are suicidal don't, the just want an ending. Both are escapes, but in completely different ways.

People who self mutilate are not looking to feel alive, their actions are a cry for help, they are to unstable or afraid to ask for help, so they harm themselves to get the attention, or they do it to cause pain to others; such as if they know this action of self mutilation will deeply affect someone they have issues with.

 

[MetalManCPA]

Originally posted by Soul4Raziel



People who self mutilate are not looking to feel alive, their actions are a cry for help, they are to unstable or afraid to ask for help, so they harm themselves to get the attention, or they do it to cause pain to others; such as if they know this action of self mutilation will deeply affect someone they have issues with.

Self mutilation IS a way to "feel" alive : yes, it's a cry for help, and it could be for attention, or it could be the person is punishing his/herself for what they perceive to be bad. As far as a person purposefully harming his/herself just to get at someone - I would bet that this could occur, but in the vast majority of cases this would not be true.
Self mutilation releases endorphins which "relieve" the person in distress, thus bringing that person back to a percieved sense of "normalcy", thus "feeling" alive again.

 

[Russell]

Originally posted by Soul4Raziel
People who self mutilate are not looking to feel alive, their actions are a cry for help, they are to unstable or afraid to ask for help, so they harm themselves to get the attention, or they do it to cause pain to others; such as if they know this action of self mutilation will deeply affect someone they have issues with.

I can only second what Metalmancpa says, and people can do it for many reasons, more than just the ones metalmancpa mentioned. It can make you feel needed, worth something etc. as well

Reading this above you seem very cinical. Most people who self harm you wouldn't know about it. They hide it well, and DON'T want ne1 to know, not the actions of someone who is looking for attention. You don't seem to realise it also has physical effects, its not just phycological. I think it is VERY rare that sum1 would self harm just to cause pain to others

 

[S4R]

Originally posted by godisanathiest


I can only second what Metalmancpa says, and people can do it for many reasons, more than just the ones metalmancpa mentioned. It can make you feel needed, worth something etc. as well

Reading this above you seem very cinical. Most people who self harm you wouldn't know about it. They hide it well, and DON'T want ne1 to know, not the actions of someone who is looking for attention. You don't seem to realise it also has physical effects, its not just phycological. I think it is VERY rare that sum1 would self harm just to cause pain to others

I agree, each case has its differences, I was just stating the most common reasons people self mutilate.

 

[Russell]

If this is the case, I've read reports that said by far the most common cause of self mutilation was not for attention, but usually as people are borderline, or they feel they need to punish themselves. But feel free to find papers that say otherwise, I'm open to debate

 

[anarchy420]

i know this is a very old thread, and it probably isn't a topic that belongs on the opeth forum, but since i am considerign suicide myself, and am bored and lonely, i figured i'd respond.

the thought of suicide can mean many different things to many different people. obviously, if you have loved ones in your life, you have to consider their feelings, but i feel they should also consider your feelings as well. i for one, dont' have a gf or wife or children or brothers or sisters, my dad died last year, i just have my mom and stepdad and although i know they would be deeply saddened by my suicide, i'm almost certain they can anticipate that it may come to that end someday. i have been very deeply depressed for most of my life, i don't respond well to any medication i've tried. i can't afford to seek correct medical care since i live in the us, so i figure self-medication is the best route for me at the moment, i smoke a lot of pot and drink a lot of beer. the beer doesn't help much. i also used to do excessive amounts of X and i may have already had a pre-existing mental illness. who knows? all i know is, i'm very very lonely and i want a girlfriend, but i don't posess the means or whatever it requires to aquire a girlfriend, and i'm pretty fucking sick of having to deal with people altogether, so i'm really looking now into suicide being probably my best option. i'm not religious and i don't believe in god or satan, heaven or hell, i believe that when you die, that's it, i don't believe in an afterlife. i'm just kinda nervous about actually propelling a bullet into my own brain, i know i won't feel any pain but the thought still kinda gives me shivers. plus there's the small chance i might not hit a crucial area of the brain and would still survive for a few hours.
i know most people will think that the inability to find a girlfriend is a stupid reason to want to commit suicide, but there's way more to it than that. i personally don't think i have what it takes, whatever that is, to attract a mate, plus the fact that i generally hate most people and i can't find any real reason why i should be alive. i mean i'm just wasting precious fossil feuls just by going to work and back home, which is basically all the travelling i do. nobody likes me, that' the god honest truth, really. i dunno why. there's gotta be something about me that girls don't like. one girl recently actually told me that it might be my negative attitude towards life, well this girl also has 2 kids. i don't have any kids and it doesn't look like i'm every going to have any, so tell me why i should care about myself? nobody likes me, and i mean that's the truth. i try to be a good person. maybe i;m just too ugly, i dunno. i truly do not know why i can't find the love that i think i require in order to live an actual life. people will say, just go out there, go to the bars, etc. yeah ok, that might actually be a good idea, if i were able to actually go out to a bar by myself, sit at the bar and drink beer until a woman appraoches me. yeah, ok. since i live in a relatively small redneck town in alabama, i don't see that happening, since i can't even approach a woman, even to ask her what fucking time it is. i just lack that social ability, so i feel there's no hope for me. that's why i want to commit suicide. end of essay,. sorry

 

[Godhead59]

First of all, allow me to offer my condolences. I know what it's like to lose a father.
About suicide - I do consider suicide a selfish, sometimes even cowardly act. As someone has already stated, my only motivation to commit suicide would be terminal sickness with no chance of ever getting well. Other than that, I believe in conquering life's obstacles, and I've been through numerous of those, and having passed them all, I have a strong disbelief in suicide. I believe one must face life, not escape it.

Edit: Just realized how old this thread is. Still, sharing my view.

 

[batmura]

i know this is a very old thread, and it probably isn't a topic that belongs on the opeth forum, but since i am considerign suicide myself, and am bored and lonely, i figured i'd respond.

the thought of suicide can mean many different things to many different people. obviously, if you have loved ones in your life, you have to consider their feelings, but i feel they should also consider your feelings as well. i for one, dont' have a gf or wife or children or brothers or sisters, my dad died last year, i just have my mom and stepdad and although i know they would be deeply saddened by my suicide, i'm almost certain they can anticipate that it may come to that end someday. i have been very deeply depressed for most of my life, i don't respond well to any medication i've tried. i can't afford to seek correct medical care since i live in the us, so i figure self-medication is the best route for me at the moment, i smoke a lot of pot and drink a lot of beer. the beer doesn't help much. i also used to do excessive amounts of X and i may have already had a pre-existing mental illness. who knows? all i know is, i'm very very lonely and i want a girlfriend, but i don't posess the means or whatever it requires to aquire a girlfriend, and i'm pretty fucking sick of having to deal with people altogether, so i'm really looking now into suicide being probably my best option. i'm not religious and i don't believe in god or satan, heaven or hell, i believe that when you die, that's it, i don't believe in an afterlife. i'm just kinda nervous about actually propelling a bullet into my own brain, i know i won't feel any pain but the thought still kinda gives me shivers. plus there's the small chance i might not hit a crucial area of the brain and would still survive for a few hours.
i know most people will think that the inability to find a girlfriend is a stupid reason to want to commit suicide, but there's way more to it than that. i personally don't think i have what it takes, whatever that is, to attract a mate, plus the fact that i generally hate most people and i can't find any real reason why i should be alive. i mean i'm just wasting precious fossil feuls just by going to work and back home, which is basically all the travelling i do. nobody likes me, that' the god honest truth, really. i dunno why. there's gotta be something about me that girls don't like. one girl recently actually told me that it might be my negative attitude towards life, well this girl also has 2 kids. i don't have any kids and it doesn't look like i'm every going to have any, so tell me why i should care about myself? nobody likes me, and i mean that's the truth. i try to be a good person. maybe i;m just too ugly, i dunno. i truly do not know why i can't find the love that i think i require in order to live an actual life. people will say, just go out there, go to the bars, etc. yeah ok, that might actually be a good idea, if i were able to actually go out to a bar by myself, sit at the bar and drink beer until a woman appraoches me. yeah, ok. since i live in a relatively small redneck town in alabama, i don't see that happening, since i can't even approach a woman, even to ask her what fucking time it is. i just lack that social ability, so i feel there's no hope for me. that's why i want to commit suicide. end of essay,. sorry

Hey dude, you gotta hang in there. Suicide is for cowards. You're not a coward cause it takes balls to come out in the open like you did. Hang in there, dude.

 

[Godhead59]

Yeah, batmura's right. Maybe it's your thinking you're not good enough - you might reflect that unto others and hurt your social state on the way. Try to think differently, that's all I can say. It's a matter of attitude. I had a conversation about that with my brother, talking a lot about how I changed my attitude towards life and other people and benefited immensely as a result.

 

[anarchy420]

Hey dude, you gotta hang in there. Suicide is for cowards. You're not a coward cause it takes balls to come out in the open like you did. Hang in there, dude.

yeah, out in the open. who's gonna read this but a couple of people who live hundreds if not thousands of miles away and are unable to really help me. i'm sorry, but i wish the words "hang in there" and "don't give up hope" actually meant something to me, but they don't. mere words alone cannot change my mind or my situation. don't get me wrong though, i do appreciate the sentiment and i wish there were more that i could do or say. to make anything better. but everything i ever do always seems to go wrong. i can't say that i haven't tried to get a girlfriend. but it's not like buying a fucking loaf of bread, although it seems to be that easy or easier for a lot of people. i guess everybody wasn't meant to have a mate. and i'm going to stop posting to this forum now, so please don't bother to flame me, i'm already gone.

 

[Reelo]

I mean now matter how shite life is at one time, why end it when it could still get better? (Tho some circumastances are a lot more understandable than others). I'm basically saying suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I also agree with Rogue27 tho, that if you're dying etc.

Exactly my thoughts. I have nothing against suicide if a person is 100% proven terminally ill, but other than that, I consider it, in a way, overreacting. I mean, no matter how shitty life seems, it's still life! You never know when/if it can get better.

That said, the most drastic thing could be killing yourself over a lost love. How would you feel if you knew that somebody killed themself because of you? It's a punishment for life that nobody is supposed to endure. Every suicidal person should think about that.

But it's easy to say that, I guess people who are suicidal are not subject to rational thinking anymore, because if they were, there would be no suicides.
There has to be something "broken" in their brain, in their thinking.

So, I don't think I'm in a position to judge. I know in my teens, I had suicidal thoughts(nothing serious, really), but then I told myself "Even though life is crap right now, who knows what it will be in a couple of years? Do you really want to eliminate all possibilities of finding joy?" Because I actually don't think Death is a relief. (Well, for terminally ill people, it is, probably) It's just the end of existence. And I'm kinda glad I have been given the opportunity to exist...

I also know when I was younger I thought "People who commit suicide are too weak to cope with problems in life, thus they're better off dead anyway" but that's also stupid reasoning.

I guess nobody throws away their life carelessly, so people who commit suicide must have (to them) perfectly valid reasons. If they're valid to a sane thinking person, that's another story...

 

[Reelo]

did the terrorist who hijacked the 4 air planes that where involved in the sept 11th attacks have mental conditions?

Yep! It's called religion...

 

[anarchy420]

Exactly my thoughts. I have nothing against suicide if a person is 100% proven terminally ill, but other than that, I consider it, in a way, overreacting. I mean, no matter how shitty life seems, it's still life! You never know when/if it can get better.

That said, the most drastic thing could be killing yourself over a lost love. How would you feel if you knew that somebody killed themself because of you? It's a punishment for life that nobody is supposed to endure. Every suicidal person should think about that.

But it's easy to say that, I guess people who are suicidal are not subject to rational thinking anymore, because if they were, there would be no suicides.
There has to be something "broken" in their brain, in their thinking.

So, I don't think I'm in a position to judge. I know in my teens, I had suicidal thoughts(nothing serious, really), but then I told myself "Even though life is crap right now, who knows what it will be in a couple of years? Do you really want to eliminate all possibilities of finding joy?" Because I actually don't think Death is a relief. (Well, for terminally ill people, it is, probably) It's just the end of existence. And I'm kinda glad I have been given the opportunity to exist...

I also know when I was younger I thought "People who commit suicide are too weak to cope with problems in life, thus they're better off dead anyway" but that's also stupid reasoning.

I guess nobody throws away their life carelessly, so people who commit suicide must have (to them) perfectly valid reasons. If they're valid to a sane thinking person, that's another story...

there are some parts of your post that i want to comment on. i'm really not good with words or anything. the thought of "too weak to cope with the problems in life has occurred to me, but i've discovered i simply dont' know how to correctly "cope" with some problems. if that is something that is implanted into everyone's dna or whatever, i must have been skipped somehow because i simply don't know how to cope with certain things. i can understand the thought process behind wanting to end your life because of a lost love, well how about because of no love at all? what if one wants to die because they are unable to find love, which i believe to be the primary driving force behind all of human existance. most other species of animals die if they do not mate. humans, however do have a choice, and i would choose to mate if i could. i'm almost wishing i were one of those other species right now... fish and insects certainly don't have these kinds of conversations. either they mate or they die. and sometimes they die after they mate, and that would be fine with me as well.

 

[Reelo]

I know most people will think that the inability to find a girlfriend is a stupid reason to want to commit suicide, but there's way more to it than that. i personally don't think i have what it takes, whatever that is, to attract a mate, plus the fact that i generally hate most people and i can't find any real reason why i should be alive. i mean i'm just wasting precious fossil feuls just by going to work and back home, which is basically all the travelling i do. nobody likes me, that' the god honest truth, really. i dunno why. there's gotta be something about me that girls don't like. one girl recently actually told me that it might be my negative attitude towards life, well this girl also has 2 kids. i don't have any kids and it doesn't look like i'm every going to have any, so tell me why i should care about myself? nobody likes me, and i mean that's the truth. i try to be a good person. maybe i;m just too ugly, i dunno. i truly do not know why i can't find the love that i think i require in order to live an actual life.

Hey mate, hang on there!!!
You know, that woman was right! Believe me, when I say that I've spent the better part of my teens and life as a young adult without a gf. I grew up as a metalhead in a time when the other youth listened to rap/hiphop/techno/rave stuff. I was old-fashioned.
No chick would have wanted to date me. The girls in the local metal-scene were all in relationships jealously guarded.
When I started getting into Black Metal, my frustration became downright hatred, like a self-inflicted suffering. I was like "Hey nobody wants me, I just hate the fuckers and wish them all the worst in life!" I also smoked a lot of pot.

But over time I developped a friendship to 2 girls (incidentally through smoking pot) who, while not physically interested in me (argh, the old "best-friend-syndrome) and totally not into Metal, showed me what fun life can be. When I moved to university I was still a virgin (something almost nobody knew) and so I remained for a couple of years, too, but my life changed, I got interested in other stuff, other music etc... And my inner attitude reflected outwards. I now am engaged in a serious relationship for over 2 years with a woman that's quite the opposite of me, and even though I still don't know what it is that attracted her to me, she always assures me that she wouldn't want any other man in life, even if she could.

Dude, EVERYONE is attractive to some other person, so I firmly believe! I now even know that in my teenage years, some girls were potentially interested in me, but my inner attitude and outer reflection thereof put them off.

To sum it up: To Love someone and BE loved by someone, you first need to love yourself. And constantly reflecting over how much people don't like you and thinking it must be because one is ugly or something, doesn't help at all!
It's a vicious circle! Low self-esteem leads to not being loved which leads to further decreasing self-esteem.

Find something you're good at (be it sports, arts, music or whatever, really) and be proud of it! Show that pride (but not in an arrogant way) and people's esteem of you will go up along with your own self-esteem!

 

[epihasi]

is staying alive a selfish act, if your death would mean better lives for hundreds of people?
a new way to have this discussion go =)

 

[Reelo]

there are some parts of your post that i want to comment on. i'm really not good with words or anything. the thought of "too weak to cope with the problems in life has occurred to me, but i've discovered i simply dont' know how to correctly "cope" with some problems. if that is something that is implanted into everyone's dna or whatever, i must have been skipped somehow because i simply don't know how to cope with certain things. i can understand the thought process behind wanting to end your life because of a lost love, well how about because of no love at all? what if one wants to die because they are unable to find love, which i believe to be the primary driving force behind all of human existance. most other species of animals die if they do not mate. humans, however do have a choice, and i would choose to mate if i could. i'm almost wishing i were one of those other species right now... fish and insects certainly don't have these kinds of conversations. either they mate or they die. and sometimes they die after they mate, and that would be fine with me as well.

Brother, I know how you feel, because I've been there. The more you search and hunt for love, the less likely you are to find it. Just try putting the concept of "hunting for a mate" away temporarily and try to enjoy life excluding sex. That's what I did. I think girls are attracted to men with a positive attitude. I know, for the better part of my life, I had printed "Unexperienced nerd with strange behaviour" printed all over my forehead. It scares women away!
When I started to not think about it anymore, about having to find that girl, my life turned for the better, and that's when love found ME!

You need to be interesting! Not interested, but interesting!

As for coping with life in general, you can do it! You're alive right now, so it's proof that you can cope with life! Just try to have hobbies ( as I said, music, arts, sport, whatever) and make yourself interesting. A relationship is just the icing on the cake, and it will come in time...

 

[Reelo]

is staying alive a selfish act, if your death would mean better lives for hundreds of people?
a new way to have this discussion go =)

Depends on what people and how much their life would improve. Life in general (human, animal, plant, everything) has a very strong sense of self-preservation. I know I'd not kill myself to improve the lifes of people I don't know. They had to be people I care for very very VERY much and the suffering which they endure if I live would have to be substantial, as would have to be the improvement of their lifes through my death.

A highly unlikely constellation...

It's not selfish to want to be alive. It's rather natural...

 

[epihasi]

Depends on what people and how much their life would improve. Life in general (human, animal, plant, everything) has a very strong sense of self-preservation. I know I'd not kill myself to improve the lifes of people I don't know. They had to be people I care for very very VERY much and the suffering which they endure if I live would have to be substantial, as would have to be the improvement of their lifes through my death.

A highly unlikely constellation...

It's not selfish to want to be alive. It's rather natural...

imagine there was a tv show, where, when one (relatively) wealthy person agrees to commit suicide, 10 people in africa are saved from poverty and starvation for the rest of their lives...let's even say, 10 children get saved every time...imagine you were a wealthy person (which, comparing to african children, you are), would you do it?

you wouldn't, neither would i, neither would the next guy...it's some strange desire to be alive, which we can't explain, even if our death were to be a guarantee for poor people to lead a life which they couldn't even imagine in their dreams, a lifestyle which is completely normal to us.

i don't judge anyone for not killing themselves for the better of humanity, but the reasons for not doing it should be questioned.
i find it highly interesting.

 

[Reelo]

i don't judge anyone for not killing themselves for the better of humanity, but the reasons for not doing it should be questioned.
i find it highly interesting.

Well, life itself (be it human, animal or plant, mold, fungi, bacteria, whatever) has an inherent sense of self-preservation. Even most viruses, even the most lethal ones don't act fast enough to kill the host before there is at least a probability of that host infecting some other potential host. Otherwise, the virus would kill itself by eliminating its chance of propagiation.

Self-preservation is not only inherently human, it's one of those big constants of nature itself.

 

[anarchy420]

i've been trying to reply but i am experiencing computer difficulties. i am sorry for trying to breathe life into an old "shit" thread, but this is a subject which is constantly on my mind, and i sincerely lack a proper avenue in which to pursue such discussion... i don't have any friends. i'm basically living in solitary confinement, though i have the ability to move about as i please. i can go anywhere i want but i don't know where to go, how to get there or what to do. so i'm just trying to find conversation the only place i know where somebody will reply to me. i guess. sorry for talking about suicide on here, this forum should be for opeth and opeth only. i will shut up now and the admin dude can close/lock/delte this thread if need be. sorry once again.