Dream Theater's Systematic Chaos
- Thread starter AngraRULES
- Start date
Ascension
New Metal Member
You have misunderstood. It's my contention that DT are where they are due to the fact that they are the best at what they do. The fanbase came as a direct result. Otherwise, why is it that they have a huge following? Is it their MTV/radio friendly music? Their Backstreet Boy/hip hop type image? l'm betting bands like Vanden Plas or SX would kill to be where they are...what do you think? I mean...SX has to be the underling on the DT tour...it is what it is...the roles will never be reversed. Hell...Fates Warning were kicking it years before DT & they were pioneers in prog metal, but they never got the recognition that DT has.
All in all, it's a perception thing. You don't percieve them as being very good...hundreds of thousands (millions?) would argue the point with you.
Mosquito
oh noes!!
Your perception is that I actually care about Vanden Plas or Symphony X and that it pains me to see them not as high up as Dream Theater. Truth of the matter is, the only band I actually enjoy is Symphony X out of those, and I would not consider myself a fan of the band. I don't care if SX is opening for DT or whatever, because it doesn't affect me either way. Besides, business IS business and I am well aware that DT pulls in more people, thus they would be the headliner. However, this does NOT make a band good.
I am aware of what your contention is. I am not saying Dream Theater sucks (I enjoy two or three albums, but I definitely don't think they are the best thing since sliced bread...not even close). My whole point was that you are using some really bad logic to prove that they are the greatest band on earth and I had to point that logic out. My whole point is that having "a fanbase 2nd to no other band in the prog metal genre" and your comment about SX opening for DT is not a good 'measurement' so to speak, of a good band. I have seen many opening bands that were better than the headliner. And fanbase certainly does not indicate a good band (as I mentioned with my Metallica quip).
Basically what I am saying is, they may be the best band in the world to you (and judging by everything I've ever seen you say, they must be in your book) but your reasoning for them being that so far is pretty bad.
I am aware of what your contention is. I am not saying Dream Theater sucks (I enjoy two or three albums, but I definitely don't think they are the best thing since sliced bread...not even close). My whole point was that you are using some really bad logic to prove that they are the greatest band on earth and I had to point that logic out. My whole point is that having "a fanbase 2nd to no other band in the prog metal genre" and your comment about SX opening for DT is not a good 'measurement' so to speak, of a good band. I have seen many opening bands that were better than the headliner. And fanbase certainly does not indicate a good band (as I mentioned with my Metallica quip).
Basically what I am saying is, they may be the best band in the world to you (and judging by everything I've ever seen you say, they must be in your book) but your reasoning for them being that so far is pretty bad.
Ascension
New Metal Member
Again, I think you missed it. Let me reinterate:
The fanbase just resulted from them being just that damn good. Above & beyond other bands in the genre. It's the conclusion I have to make as well as others have made obviously. It's certainly not the image or the music that gets force fed the "Hot Topics" bunch in heavy rotation on MTV. I mean...what else can it be? If they aren't the best in the genre...then help me understand why their fanbase dwarves other band's in it. I'm open to explanation.
Ascension said:
The fanbase just resulted from them being just that damn good. Above & beyond other bands in the genre. It's the conclusion I have to make as well as others have made obviously. It's certainly not the image or the music that gets force fed the "Hot Topics" bunch in heavy rotation on MTV. I mean...what else can it be? If they aren't the best in the genre...then help me understand why their fanbase dwarves other band's in it. I'm open to explanation.
Paris Hilton got signed to a major label and probably sold more records than Symphony X. I guess she is superior to them as well. You have the best logic ever.
Ascension
New Metal Member
3D...l just stated they were opening for DT & that it was truth as opposed to others that said SX > DT which has no foundation. You can draw whatever conclusion you want to.
I understand Paris has sold around 150 - 160,000 copies...is that more than SX? You can draw whatever conclusion you want to from that as well...I don't care...I never mentioned sales numbers. Nice try though...where's that pic of the fail boat?
I understand Paris has sold around 150 - 160,000 copies...is that more than SX? You can draw whatever conclusion you want to from that as well...I don't care...I never mentioned sales numbers. Nice try though...where's that pic of the fail boat?
But Ascension you have no proof that DT > SyX.
And isn't > an opinion as opposed to a universal fact?
I would wager that in a blind taste test, more people would think DT is > SyX. But that doesn't matter to all the people who think SyX > DT.
And isn't > an opinion as opposed to a universal fact?
I would wager that in a blind taste test, more people would think DT is > SyX. But that doesn't matter to all the people who think SyX > DT.
lol "SX > DT" means that Symphony X is better (a very debatable opinion I'll admit, but opinion nontheless)... It has nothing to do with who is bigger or more popular. You were the one that then made the popularity statement, which draws the assumption that you think popularity is equivalent to musical superiority, but as it turns out you're just a newbie to the internet...
Talk about failing. Your idiocy knows no bounds...
Ascension
New Metal Member
Ok...l'll just forward you to the same post l handed out to Mosquito.
I'll leave it up to you also to help with an explanation.
This is sad & starting to look as immature as the SX forum. Implying that I'm an idiot should immediately bring heat from a moderator.
Ascension said:
I'll leave it up to you also to help with an explanation.
3DimensionalAperture said:
This is sad & starting to look as immature as the SX forum. Implying that I'm an idiot should immediately bring heat from a moderator.
Let me as well, foward you a post I handed out to you.
Paris has lots of fans as well. Nsync has fans too, as do Spears and Avril Lavigne. What the hell does that have to do with talent? You're wrong. Deal with it.
And for the record, if implying that you're an idiot for making a TOTALLY idiotic statement, just like pretty much every statement I've seen you make, brings "heat" from Glenn or any other mod so be it. It's a free country on both sides, if Glenn wants to ban me he is entitled, but I stand by my opinion and wholeheartedtly believe that your opinion has little to no value whatsoever.
So far, I've only heard "The Dark Eternal Night" and "Constant Motion." Before you read on, keep in mind that this is coming from a Dream Theater fanboy. "The Dark Eternal Night" is quite possibly the worst progressive metal song I've ever heard. LaBrie and Portnoy should not be allowed to do a duet rap ever again. What's worse is that the instrumental section does nothing to redeem the song. It's just a bunch of randomness. One of the things I've always loved about Dream Theater is that even their most technical parts had a flow to them. This just sounds like a bunch of noodling. As for "Constant Motion," I'm reminded of most of the material from Train Of Thought, which has grown on me over the years but is still, in my opinion, their weakest album. Overall, I'm not holding any high hopes for this album, and that's the first time I've ever said that about this band.
Stay metal. Never rust.
Met-Al
Stay metal. Never rust.
Met-Al
Wandrail
I'm your Huckleberry
Because its an embarrassingly obvious rip off of Muse, and besides that it really doesn't even fit the album. Its a far more blatant rip off than anything on the last album, which in my opinion didn't contain any really "rip off" songs, although yeah I heard the U2 and the Muse going on in a couple songs.
I'm really not that impressed with this album...it starts off promising because the opening track has more of a true prog rock feel to it than most of what they've done for the past couple albums, and Forsaken is pretty good...Constant Motion could be worse...but then it really starts to fall apart in my opinion.
And what the hell, is that Portnoy who can't shut up through half the damn album with his constant yelling? Has he gotten bit by the drummer-who -wants-to-do-vocals bug? That is annoying as hell.
Ascension
New Metal Member
I think it's common knowledge the reason for those you mentioned popularity is the push they get from the media. I have not contended that popularity equals talent. You have tried to twist it in that direction. I have said, and l'll repeat it & simplify it for your benefit because for the average person sometimes these things need time and effort to be absorbed, that DT are the most popular in their genre because of their elite talent level. They are the best at what they do. The fanbase arose from that. Fans were looking for a band like DT that was above & beyond the rest of the field and they attached themselves to DT. DT has maintained that fanbase by continuously generating top notch material that appeals to them...plus achieve new fans. Is all of their material the greatest thing since white bread? No. But, even their worst equals other bands in the genre's best. Of course, all this is my opinion...but the numbers are on my side.
3DimensionalAperture said:
I'm going to continue maintaining the high road here and not allow myself to be brought down to your level with the hopes that a Mod will get involved in order to maintain a decent maturity level here. The fact that you have failed to address the reason why DT is popular & the name calling helps me to understand the intellect level l'm dealing with. Needless to say, l'm not impressed.
SyXified
Member
Have I lost my gourd, or are the Dream Theater message boards gone from their site? Anyone know what happened to them?
Ascension
New Metal Member
The messageboard is no longer on their site. An "unofficial" version carried on afterwards and has since split due to disagreement about how to handle the leak. One bans info about the leak...one has no problem with it.
http://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/
http://www.fiveeightforums.com/index.php?
http://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/
http://www.fiveeightforums.com/index.php?
its really hard to prove that one band is better than another. you can use sales and statistics and all that shit, but think of other genres. out of all the fans of nickelback, how many of those fans' opinions actually mean anything? and im sure nickelback probably is more popular than symphony x, but most of us here would agree that symphony x is better than nickelback. i bet if you went to some other forums, a lot of those would say dream theater kicks the shit out of SX, but other forums would say all the members of SX completely out class DT and every member of SX has probably slept with every member of DT's mothers.
dont bring up sales or listening statistics.
the best way to prove your point is to provide your opinions in forms of valid points, and make them valid as possible. you cant change the other guys opinion anyways, so why try so hard?
a lot of us are victim to these arguments, but i think on these boards in particular, it would be best to avoid un-winnable arguments that always end up bitter. now if it was some mtv message board, id say have at it...
dont bring up sales or listening statistics.
the best way to prove your point is to provide your opinions in forms of valid points, and make them valid as possible. you cant change the other guys opinion anyways, so why try so hard?
a lot of us are victim to these arguments, but i think on these boards in particular, it would be best to avoid un-winnable arguments that always end up bitter. now if it was some mtv message board, id say have at it...
Kenneth R.
Cináed
The new Dream Theater isn't great but it's a sure improvement over the last two albums. At least they're headed in the right direction now. For the record, another DT released a flipping amazing album called Fiction not too long ago.
Pellaz
Tigron of Immanion
lol @ thinking DT got popular just by being around. The fact that they've been on Elektra Records for the past 17 years and the fact that they got tons and tons of MTV exposure in the 90s for "Pull Me Under" is meaningless. I'll sink to your level of denial and also assume that DT sold 600,000 + copies of Images And Words and achieved their fandom by not doing anything. By no means do major label budgets have anything to do with the picture. I know that DT wasn't Warner's most high-profile client, and that DT did alot of work by themselves, but you've honestly got your head up your ass if you think they paid for all the tours/exposure they recieved over the years out of their own pockets.
EVERY successful artist gets some kind of media push. Nobody just blows up by themselves without any promotion at all. Just doesn't happen.
Further, you've "contended" that popularity equals talent by bringing fourth the topic of DT's fanbase (for like the 8th time now) when the discussion was based on musical superiority (and by that I mean being the better band and nothing more) and not popularity. DT's fanbase has nothing to do WHATSOEVER with the comment that SX > DT. Get it through your head, dumbass.
You can take whatever route you want to take. The fact is that everything you've said (as far as I've seen) has been 100% wrong. Get with it.
PS. the fact that you can't deal with being wrong is idiotic is sad. Do you cry to your parents when you're this incorrect in real life in the same fashion you cry for mods to help you out?
Take solice in the fact that this will be my last post ever, Ascension. This way you'll end up using less kleenex, and I will feel that I have done a service to our environment by not having you kill so many trees. Crybaby.
Harvester
The Promoter
It's a shame, but that probably needs to be true for a while from a voluntarily perspective. I actually agree with you more than Ascension, but you need to learn how to articulate and disagree without name calling. You lose all credibility when you do that.
Consider this a warning.
