Drums: Programming vs. The Real Deal

[digitaldeath]

Hey guys,
Just wondering what everyone's preference is here?
Obviously, recording an acoustic kit is ideal but I know not everyone here has the facilities to do so.
I suppose I'm just in two minds about splashing out on the gear to record my acoustic when I have a Roland TD-3 e-kit and Superior 2.0.
Obviously, if I want to record other bands, I'll need the gear to record an acoustic and deal with the headaches that come with that (un-professional drummers etc.) and I often just wonder would it be easier to record these guys on my e-kit. Not sure how well that would work though.
If I'm gonna have to Beat Detective everything, why not just program the drums and use Superior?
What's your opinion on this?

 

[GarethSE]

the final question "if im gonna have to beat detective everything, why not just use superior?" is the question that all us sends us engineers round in circles, but drummers never seem to able to accept that they just generally suck. so they end up playing on the record, but then everything gets fixed to the extent it basically isnt even them on the album
i reckon recording drummers on your e-kit and shelling out for some decent condensers for micing overheads would work out pretty well
it seems to be what makes the difference

 

[digitaldeath]

Cheers for the reply Dodo. I forgot to mention that I also have a full set of Ddrum Pro Acoustic triggers, which would give me a drum recording setup pretty much the same as 'brianhood' around here.
Trying to get other drummers to play the e-kit instead of an acoustic would be a nightmare I imagine!

 

[James-Doolan]

If your starting out programmed drums will sound much better but the problem is i havent met a drummer yet who is cool about programming the drums:hotjump:

It has to be them playing no matter how much they suck and no matter how much your going to edit it to make it sound like programmed drums (im talking metal here rock/indie is a different kettle of banannas) so to answer your question i would prefer to program drums (as i dont have a killer sounding room and racks full of api 312)

But the likley hood is if your recording bands your going to have to track the drummer so id invest in some good overheads at first (getting all the requred mics for a full kit will cost bank) and use the triggers on the shells and get some tastey samples (slate ect) as you gain more experience/money add to your mic locker/pre-amp quality as you go

 

[digitaldeath]

Thanks for the reply James. Funnily, I've met some drummers who don't mind tracking with the TD-3, but I'd imagine I'd never get away with programming their parts. But once I quantize the MIDI from the TD-3, I may as well have programmed their parts...!

 

[The-Zeronaut]

im a total noob but i think that the best and faster way to get a really great sound is
Programmed drums with real overheads and hihat (fast and it saves you do the beat detective thing)
or
triggers on everything and real overheads/hihat...(if the drummer dont know how to program drums or he just wants to record "real" drums...)


id really like to record acoustic drums but (where i live) i havent see a good drummer with a GOOD drum kit (and im not talking about expensive)
im talking about a "normal" drumkit with new WELL TUNED skins...so in the end i have to use drum samples anyway...

and lets be honest...it saves me a lot of work and its a lot cheaper (a pack of triggers , relatively good overhead mics and a drum sample library) if you compare it to the price of everything you need to record an acoustic kit with good sound (in my humble and noob opinion)

 

[digitaldeath]

im talking about a "normal" drumkit with new WELL TUNED skins...so in the end i have to use drum samples...

Which is why I'd recommend new skins for a recording session. Also, if you're inexperienced tuning drums, something like a Drum Dial can really work wonders!
I bought mine new on eBay as the shipping was cheaper there than it was from the manufacturer!

 

[GarethSE]

if a drummer bitches about playing on your td-3 you just need to say that it'll still maintain his performance

a) he's a drummer, he'll accept that
b) you're the guy who knows how to record shit, he'll accept that

if he doesnt accept it for one of those two reasons then he's too smart for his own good, and should be killed with your cable of choice and buried in the back yard
if the band asks where he's gone tell them he went to get some cigarettes

 

[TheDude]

Thanks for the reply James. Funnily, I've met some drummers who don't mind tracking with the TD-3, but I'd imagine I'd never get away with programming their parts. But once I quantize the MIDI from the TD-3, I may as well have programmed their parts...!

Big difference.

When a drummer's PLAYING the part, it's his strokes translated into Midi. If you're programming it... So when you're quantizing his performance, it's still .. ah, you get what I mean.

 

[digitaldeath]

Big difference.

When a drummer's PLAYING the part, it's his strokes translated into Midi. If you're programming it... So when you're quantizing his performance, it's still .. ah, you get what I mean.

Of course Jocke, but once you quantize a poor performance, is it still "his performance" if it is barely recognisable from what he played?

 

[The-Zeronaut]

Which is why I'd recommend new skins for a recording session. Also, if you're inexperienced tuning drums, something like a Drum Dial can really work wonders!
I bought mine new on eBay as the shipping was cheaper there than it was from the manufacturer!

i also recommend new skins but they never listen to me ...
but it seems that i only get to work with that kind of drummers
with shitty drum kits brand "X" with 3 year old skins that asks for the drum sound of metallica´s black album.....yeah i have a MAGICAL plugin that does that (¬_¬)...
so i decided to use triggers and replace with samples
or use programmed drums

 

[JBroll]

I do enjoy questioning the fundamental 'ideal' you started off with. What if I like my drum tracks untainted by exposure to drummers, imperfect mic placement, or any of those other things reality throws in just to fuck with us? What if I want to constantly rewrite things for no good reason, or use one simple 'skeleton' to build a larger structure and not have to wait for a perfect take to come through to evaluate progress? I strongly doubt that people can detect programmed drums just because they're by their very nature 'incomplete' somehow - I'd bet body parts that proper implementation can do so well that nobody would ever know how few actual drummers were involved in a track...

Jeff

 

[::XeS::]

Actually Tue Madsen is near my home, working in a friends studio. He said that he hates triggers and editing. Only if there are some beat out he edits them.
I prefer this approach, it's more genuine (obviously, if the drummer is very bad, you have to edit a bit more). It's ridicolous when you hear Chris Adler uber quantized in the Producer edition, and live...
I think the best way to work is a compromise between natural performance and beat detective on very bad mistakes.

 

[Harry Hughes]

Drummers,keep them for the rehearsals and live shows.
For the studio tell them to fuck off

 

[006]

I've had people track on my e-kit while I've mic'ed their cymbals/hats just because they didn't feel like hauling their whole set over before. I've had dudes want to completely use the e-kit, including cymbal pads, just because they didn't even have a drumset Then I've had guys that insist on using their drumset because they think it's the shit. Broken cymbals and everything. I've had guys that want me to trigger their entire kit and quantize it to shit in the end.

If you can get people to use it, it works really well usually, playing on the e-kit and mic'ing their actual cymbals/hats. I would say if that is not possible then use cymbal pads, but mic'ing the real ones will end up being so much better. Doing it this way is nearly the same as just completely triggering their acoustic set except... no bleed! haha I like that method for metal because it's clean as fuck in the end. Monitor drum sounds from the module so it's latency free, they can hear their cymbals either via headphone feed or from the room. I know personally I have seriously considered investing in a 5 or 6-piece high-end Roland kit, just drum pads and a nice module, exactly for this purpose. Mic cymbals and plug in the MIDI cable, so easy!

Some drummers will be girls about it, some won't, just like some guitarists will be girls about reamping/playing properly/using a better axe/amp. Every band/situation is different and all you can do is offer options and hope they go for what you want, but don't get mad when they don't always agree.

 

[GarethSE]

can we just tell drummer jokes now guise?
im itching to
please please pelase please pleaseeeeepleapslepleplaepleaseeeeeee?

 

[Line666]

Boy says to his mother:

"When I grow up, I want to be a drummer!"

Mother replies "Son you can't do both"

 

[digitaldeath]

I've had people track on my e-kit while I've mic'ed their cymbals/hats just because they didn't feel like hauling their whole set over before. I've had dudes want to completely use the e-kit, including cymbal pads, just because they didn't even have a drumset Then I've had guys that insist on using their drumset because they think it's the shit. Broken cymbals and everything. I've had guys that want me to trigger their entire kit and quantize it to shit in the end.

If you can get people to use it, it works really well usually, playing on the e-kit and mic'ing their actual cymbals/hats. I would say if that is not possible then use cymbal pads, but mic'ing the real ones will end up being so much better. Doing it this way is nearly the same as just completely triggering their acoustic set except... no bleed! haha I like that method for metal because it's clean as fuck in the end. Monitor drum sounds from the module so it's latency free, they can hear their cymbals either via headphone feed or from the room. I know personally I have seriously considered investing in a 5 or 6-piece high-end Roland kit, just drum pads and a nice module, exactly for this purpose. Mic cymbals and plug in the MIDI cable, so easy!

Some drummers will be girls about it, some won't, just like some guitarists will be girls about reamping/playing properly/using a better axe/amp. Every band/situation is different and all you can do is offer options and hope they go for what you want, but don't get mad when they don't always agree.

Thanks for the advice, I guess I'll just get the gear to mic up an acoustic and use the e-kit when I can get away with it!

 

[GarethSE]

Boy says to his mother:

"When I grow up, I want to be a drummer!"

Mother replies "Son you can't do both"

hahaha yewww
let it commence


A customer walks into the brand new store downtown that sells brains. There are three glass cases, each containing a nice wet quivering gray brain. The first one says "SCIENTIST", and it costs $100. The second says "ELECTRICIAN" and costs $1000. The third says "DRUMMER" and costs $10,000. The customer is confused, and questions the salesperson.
"I don't get it...why would I want a drummer's brain for $10,000 when I can get an scientist's brain for $100?".

The salesman replied, "Because, it's never been used."

 

[axeman720]

I will take overly BD'd drums over programmed drums anyday. At least if the drummer sucks i can BD it and still impart the feel i want on it and give it a unique vibe rather than the vibe of a drum machine.

Its been a mission of mine to bring back real drummer feel, case in point being some of the last few albums i've produced or engineered. Sure there is some slop, but thats what makes your brain turn on. Perfection doesnt need to be monitored, its written off in your mind as non threatening and unininteresting. At least it is in mine. Even the tightest drummers have a certain feel that can never be duplicated by a machine.

Don't mean to start shit at all, but there is tons of bedroom warrior "producers" who have no idea what its like to deal with a real drumkit and kids are comparing their mixes to some real pros. No comparison, period.

Tuning and micing a kit yourself, dealing with mic bleed, real life dynamics and inconsistencies etc... there is just no comparison to loading up a patch in DFH or BFD.

Sure its fine for demos or if you dont have the "facilities" but i just dont prefer it.