Drums: Programming vs. The Real Deal

[Loren Littlejohn]

I (lately) have been recording them and then telling them it is going to end up fake drums, but what they played. Only I make it not suck as much .

Haven't had a drummer complain yet so far.

 

[Suicide_As_Alibi]

I'm currently in two bands, and the drummers in them are complete opposite ends of the scale:

One of them is tight as Hell, plays pretty simple and hits pretty consistantly - give him a click track and he's bang on every time. With him programming would take longer than than just recording him (including editing), so there's nothing to gain from it. Triggers on the kick and snare maybe, but his kit sounds nice natural anyway and the music isn't balls out metal, so we don't need an overly unnatural sounding kick etc. An electronic kit would be fine, though I don't think he'd be very happy about it.

The other one is looser, really dynamic, and madly complex. He's been playing in jazz bands since he was 9 (he's now 23), and he hits harder than anyone else I've ever played with - he can trip out a lot of the noise limiters round here just with his snare hits. Programming his parts would take forever because of the way he plays, he broke the last electronic kit he used when he did a snare roll (he totalled someones Guitar Hero drum kit too, which was one of the funniest things I've ever seen), and triggers present other issues... We tried one on his snare at our last recording, and it was a total failure. Hard single hits quite often caused extra mis-triggers, flams kept coming out as one hit, and ghost notes and buzz rolls disappeared altogether. He likes his side-sticks too, which sound weird with a trigger on the rim. Triggering the kick is okay, but he's even pretty dynamic with that and replacing it 100% loses so much of the feel it's not worth it most of the time. So with him, I tend to go all natural too (with maybe some blended samples on the kick).

The only place I personally woudl take the electronic kit option by choice would be for something like Death Metal, where consistancy and perfect timing are more important than dynamics and groove.

Steve

 

[HandsOfDespair]

Real drums FTW

Too lazy to argument, but programmed drums sound fake most of the time, especially the oh.

I heard that a producer around my town , when he triggers, he always use only the samples from the actual drumkit so that each band has its own sound. Good idea I think.

 

[Jevil]

Real drums is better if the drummer plays like a machine, otherwise, is better a machine.

 

[Razvan]

Not everyone here affords to record real drums. And to simply have a mic set doesnt mean you will automatically get a good/perfect drum sound. Thats why many of us use the drum replacement, and I know for a fact its not just a "trend" but more of a survival kit. But enough whining now.

Joke:
How can you tell if its a drummer somebody who knocks on your door?
Simple: it slows down.

 

[SickBoy]

If your starting out programmed drums will sound much better but the problem is i havent met a drummer yet who is cool about programming the drums:hotjump:

Well mine is and so are the other few who play in the bands I've recorded
I actually think you can get away with some clever drum programming, I even made my other band's drummer think I did live drums on one recording...
If he was deceived - why wouldn't the majority of the audience as well?

 

[digitaldeath]

Well mine is and so are the other few who play in the bands I've recorded
I actually think you can get away with some clever drum programming, I even made my other band's drummer think I did live drums on one recording...
If he was deceived - why wouldn't the majority of the audience as well?

Valid point. I think my issue doesn't lie with the audience though...it's more trying to do the right thing and keep drummers happy.

 

[scorpio01169]

real drums, point blank

 

[Sacha]

Of course who wouldn't rather record a real sick drummer in a killer studio...but that's just not possible all the time especially with the music biz today.

If the technology can help serve the music then why not use it I say...there are a few bands with programmed drums that are so killer it doesn't bother me at all. It's the music and songwriting that matters most.

I kinda like the 'guerilla' aspect of it in a twisted way i must admit. :Shedevil:

 

[digitaldeath]

Obviously this all depends on what kinda music you're doing, but around here most stuff is getting sample replaced anyways...so what's the point recording real drums (for other than overheads)?

 

[006]

That's where I'm coming from too, I'd rather, for heavier styles of music, use an e-kit and mic real cymbals over having to deal with acoustic drums that I want to eliminate and replace anyway. I mean, who cares if the drummer is comfortable with it? A lot of guitar players aren't comfortable with doubling or quadrupling their takes... but I guess that is ok? How about getting vocalists to double their tracks up too? None of which happens in a live situation so why the fuck do drummers get the sympathy? Fuck 'em.

 

[digitaldeath]

Although I can honestly say that using my Roland cymbal pads sucks major ass compared to real cymbals (which I have a lot of).

 

[nwright]

I've never programmed drums, nor used e-kits in a session, although I have mixed bands who used both.

I prefer to mess with the real tracks, even if they aren't as consistent. It sounds more real to me. Having said that, I feel my best work was for a band whose drummer used one of the high dollar V Drum kits both in the studio and for their live shows (Carting his own monitor/subwoofer system). I ended up blending samples in with his stock Roland samples for the drums, keeping the cymbals. They sounded OK (well, the crashes and ride).

It's opened up my mind to the idea of using a V Drum kit, but I'm still not sure. Our new drummer has a V Drum kit that he said he'd use if we want, but usually plays an acoustic kit live. I'm pondering the idea of trying the V Drum/OH miking idea. If we used the acoustic kit, it'd be all triggered with miked OH's anyway.

 

[006]

Exactly.

With heavier styles, we try so hard to eliminated the acoustic sound from the overheads to begin with, and then the name of the game is to replace with samples/quantize to shit. A lot of these bands want exactly that. I think for those situations there is no reason to include acoustic drums at all. The high-end V-Drum sets actually feel extremely close and are really high quality. It just sucks because they are easily $200 for each piece so for my needs it will be $1,000 minimum just for the good drum pads from Roland. Then I still want to get a nice module, probably TD-20 or similar, which will be a nice chunk of change itself. But I feel like it will be totally worth it and will pay for itself after 2-3 metal bands come in and use it. Mic the real cymbals/hats though, don't use pads for those!!!!!!!!!!!

There are a few projects where I know from the start either by band request or just how I feel it out that I will be straight triggering the drums, no acoustic sound whatsoever. Those are situations where having the pads would be way better. Why even bother with an acoustic set at that point? Just making it harder on yourself.

 

[nwright]

Exactly.

With heavier styles, we try so hard to eliminated the acoustic sound from the overheads to begin with, and then the name of the game is to replace with samples/quantize to shit. A lot of these bands want exactly that. I think for those situations there is no reason to include acoustic drums at all. The high-end V-Drum sets actually feel extremely close and are really high quality. It just sucks because they are easily $200 for each piece so for my needs it will be $1,000 minimum just for the good drum pads from Roland. Then I still want to get a nice module, probably TD-20 or similar, which will be a nice chunk of change itself. But I feel like it will be totally worth it and will pay for itself after 2-3 metal bands come in and use it. Mic the real cymbals/hats though, don't use pads for those!!!!!!!!!!!

There are a few projects where I know from the start either by band request or just how I feel it out that I will be straight triggering the drums, no acoustic sound whatsoever. Those are situations where having the pads would be way better. Why even bother with an acoustic set at that point? Just making it harder on yourself.

Luckily for us, our new drummer has his own V kit, he got it in Japan while he was in the military at a time when the dollar favored the purchase...Saved about 1K over buying here in the states...And the kit is one of the 5-6K setups.

 

[digitaldeath]

006: Why would you splash out on a TD-20 module if you're going to replace everything anyways?!
Unless of course you want to use the onboard sounds of the TD-20.
Personally I'd get some good multi-zone pads (so you can use the rim on the snare etc. The pads used on the old TD-8 kits were just fine - all mesh) and pair those pads up with a decent module and just record the MIDI to trigger your favourite drum VSTi.
My Roland TD-3 module can't handle all of the info that the high-end pads can send to it, but I don't think I'd need to invest in such an expensive module to make use of them.
Right now I can get great results using my TD-3 e-kit (I've upgraded some of the pads) and I just fine-tune the MIDI in my DAW afterwards.

 

[006]

Basically, I'm looking for a 5-piece setup to start with, kick/snare/3 toms, later to expand the toms to maybe 5 toms total. I want the nicest VDrum pads available, I know the high-end kits have the closest feel and mesh is too loose for most guys, they complain about that first more than anything. So, the high-end pads I'm sure have dual-zone at minimum for snare where there can be rimshot triggered as well. Does the TD-8 or maybe even a cheaper one, have enough connections for that?

The main reason I would get a TD-20 is so the drummer can hear sounds from that while tracking. Unless the lower models have good enough sounds going on, or if the 20 has MORE sounds, I'd want that. Record MIDI output of the module and that would be routed through Addictive Drums or whatever I may be using later on in conjunction with the mic'ed cymbals. If the lower priced TD modules can do all that for me with just as good triggering and handling cross-talk, etc. then let me know. I'm not super knowledgeable on the modules per se, just the pads. I've had a lot of experience with the different levels of quality pads out there and the top-of-the-line VDrum pads are as good as it gets.

 

[MetalJonesy]

im currently beat detectiving a piece my mate ha never heard before until the session, hes a great drummer but struggled to get the style of my drumming (of which it was too fast for me to play) so im having to quantize like fuck.

however, if the drummer is tight, then i love real drums, as you sole get the feeling from the overheads, hihats and cynmbal mics, thats where the difference is between programmed drums and real drums (even if sample replacing) imo

 

[006]

Agreed, that's why I vote against cymbal and hat pads! uke:

 

[digitaldeath]

Basically, I'm looking for a 5-piece setup to start with, kick/snare/3 toms, later to expand the toms to maybe 5 toms total. I want the nicest VDrum pads available, I know the high-end kits have the closest feel and mesh is too loose for most guys, they complain about that first more than anything. So, the high-end pads I'm sure have dual-zone at minimum for snare where there can be rimshot triggered as well. Does the TD-8 or maybe even a cheaper one, have enough connections for that?

The main reason I would get a TD-20 is so the drummer can hear sounds from that while tracking. Unless the lower models have good enough sounds going on, or if the 20 has MORE sounds, I'd want that. Record MIDI output of the module and that would be routed through Addictive Drums or whatever I may be using later on in conjunction with the mic'ed cymbals. If the lower priced TD modules can do all that for me with just as good triggering and handling cross-talk, etc. then let me know. I'm not super knowledgeable on the modules per se, just the pads. I've had a lot of experience with the different levels of quality pads out there and the top-of-the-line VDrum pads are as good as it gets.

I'm not sure which modules will allow you to monitor the onboard sounds while also outputting MIDI, I don't even know if my TD-3 module does it, but when I get home later tonight I'll check (it's something I've never tried).
The sounds on the TD-3 are shit, yes - but IMO they're terrible on all of the modules. Sure the TD-20 allows you to adjust the timbre of the drums etc. but it's not something I'd blow a ridiculous amount of money on just for monitoring purposes. The TD-12 module (€1125) offers positional sensing on the snare, ride, and toms and is a lot of fun to play with (I've played all of the Roland kits).
Of course, you'd want to try all of this stuff out in person before buying anything, but you could get the TD-12 module, buy the pads you know are good yourself and get this Roland rack (€333).
The complete TD-12 e-kit will cost you €3299 which includes all of the pads etc. I doubt there's 5 tom inputs on the module, but since you won't be using the cymbals - you can plug tom pads into those inputs, but I doubt you'll get multi-zone/positioning sensing on those.
Oh - and Roland discontinued the TD-8 a good while back, which is a shame as it was a fantastic e-kit for the money, basically the same as the TD-12 as far as I can remember.