Economic Woes

[Dead Winter]

So now the auto juggernaut Chrysler (/sarcasm) is saying that unless they get a bailout for making shitty automobiles, the US is going to spiral into a depression. People haven't been exactly waiting in line for the Detroit Big Three in the past few years, so I fail to see how it's going to be the next Depression.

Yes, of course. They've declared bankruptcy/been bought out how many times in the past 20 years? I somehow don't believe it.

Does it strike anyone else strange that for decades all these big auto corporations who have quite literally been fucking people and have been pointing the finger and laughing at other manufacturers with government assistance in the past are now asking for a government handout? What happened to the capitalism? Where is the "sucks to be you" today?

Here's a clue: when you make shitty cars that people don't need anymore, the more reliable and better automobile will put you out of business. You know what that's called? CAPITALISM!!!!! Survival of the fittest!!! Now that the shoe is on the other foot, it's amusing to see these giant corporations basically do a complete 180 when they realize they're going to have to start living like 99% of the rest of the country.

What are your thoughts on the crisis?

 

[Will Bozarth]

oh noes

 

[Dead Winter]

oh noes not Chrysler!!! I was so hoping for that hideously ugly Chrysler Town and Country minivan!!!!

 

[Will Bozarth]

*shrugs* there are plenty of cars out there. more jobs will eventually show up for the people that are getting laid off.

 

[WhiteBeastofWotan]

But in the mean time, those people will be very depressed.

 

[Dead Winter]

*shrugs* there are plenty of cars out there. more jobs will eventually show up for the people that are getting laid off.

Exactly. Auto manufacturers aren't banks. They don't control people's money. If someone invented a pod for people to travel around in like in the Jetsons, the automobile would become a thing of the past completely and the only people hating life will be the stockholders of auto companies. Free market means accepting the consequences of capitalism as well, which these douchebags can't seem to understand.

In my opinion, this is the dawn of a new era. This is where real innovation is going to rear its beautiful head and give people a true alternative to their current lifestyle.

 

[Swabs]

Exactly, capitalism means that if you're not smart with your money, your business will fail, and that's fair. In the case of the government bank bailout over here in the UK, I can understand that, as allowing the banks to collapse would have destroyed most of the populations life savings.

But government bailouts for businesses? Fuck that.

 

[WhiteBeastofWotan]

I just hope earth becomes an ecumenopolis in my lifetime.

 

[DreamNeonBlack]

Yeah, I am not crying at all for them. I was reading on CNN yesterday the CEO of Ford's base salary is 2 million a year, after all the perks he made 21 million last year! 21 MILLION! Ceo of GM's base was like 1.6 million, he made 16ish million last year.

I've been saying this for quite a while now and I will say it again. With all of the gas problems these car companies could have saved everyone if they came out with a " new " vechicle, something that ran on little or no gasoline. Now picture this, I debut my new, affordable car that runs on X. I now need a whole new team to build, service the vehicle. That will also mean I need new industry and people to create/run the fueling stations,service stations and dealerships. You will also need people to train all of these people on the new technology invovled. You just created an entire new world and workforce.
You will also have to keep a good portion of your old staff as most people are not going to immediately drop the gas cars for the X car. So you now have two entire, similar yet seperate industries going for at least a decade or two.
if you did that you would have carte blanche for the next 100 years.

But nope, they continue to make cars the same way with crappy mileage etc.

I know I've over simplified things but hopefully you get the point. Fuck them, I feel sorry for the little guy on the assembly line who will be out of work but oh well.

 

[Dead Winter]

I just hope earth becomes an ecumenopolis in my lifetime.

I seriously, seriously want someone to invent some kind of matter transporter or something so I can move instantly wherever I want to go.

If for some reason transportation as we know it were to become a thing of the past and something like this were in effect, imagine the money gained by the average Joe. Conversely, imagine being able to point and laugh at the last automotive CEO standing in the welfare line.

 

[WhiteBeastofWotan]

"In other news, matter to energy conversion prices went up again today due to decreased supply of transporters from the middle east"

 

[DreamNeonBlack]

" 25 cents eh? hmmmm I don't know, it only transports matter? "- Homer

 

[Dead Winter]

We humans will always find a way to fuck someone else over.

We should just all become cyborgs.

 

[~Lynn~]

3.5 million jobs.. how about that. Cars that don't last? My last work truck (GMC) has 250,000 miles on it, 2 alternators and two fuel pumps, that's all. It's towed something for about 90% of those miles ,I change the oil every 10,000 miles and it's usually about a quart low by then. My daily driver Pontiac Montana knocks down 30-32 mpg at 150,000 miles, burns no oil and I put a battery cable and a battery in it so far. 95 trans am runs mid 12 second quarters, 75 mph 28 mpg. Tow my boat with it at times never a hiccup. How about a nearly 600 hp corvette, runs mid 11's and still manages 26-27 mpg with a 100k warranty, that's probably a piece of crap too. The bullshit about American cars being crap is nothing but propaganda bullshit. Plenty of my friends work as foriegn car techs and they are no better off than any American car by any means.

Let's not forget the car rags that thrive on overseas advertisement money and will do ANYTHING to throw American vehicles under the bus.

The government with unfair CAFE standards and ridiculous tax breaks to overseas vehicle corporations to lure them to U.S. soil have done as much harm to the auto industry as the slide rule, greedy pencil pushing geeks on Wall Street, the crooks at Fannie Mae, and the loser financial institutions who gave every lazy asswipe a no money down mortgage. Yet these banks get a 700+ BILLION handout to only sit on. The auto makers are trying to situate a deal to save american jobs, to the tune of over 3 million. At least get your shit straight over there on the other side of the fence before pointing fingers. Go to your Wal-Mart for your useless Chinese goods, buy your Honda's and Toyota's.. then bitch about the U.S. economy..right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7YB...reamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173351

 

[Captain Beard]

My only thoughts are that the GOV already gave away 7 TRILLION DOLLARS OVERALL, so why not just throw the rest away and bail EVERYONE OUT?! We're already screwed.

 

[Lord Foul]

Unions are what killed the American auto industry. If you are paying your people $70 an hour and your competitors are paying their people $40 an hour, you are out of business. Full stop.

The reason that the American companies didn't innovate and produce fuel efficient hybrids for 20k is that they lose money selling at that cost. So they focused on making cars they could sell in the 35-50k range, which means SUV's, trucks, and bigass sedans. This works fine for luxury companies that are selling their name and reputation as much as they are selling automobiles, but "Buick" and "Dodge" aren't prestige names.

 

[~Lynn~]

Unions are what killed the American auto industry. If you are paying your people $70 an hour and your competitors are paying their people $40 an hour, you are out of business. Full stop.

What you fail to realize is the amount of money Toyota/Honda/BMW etc siphon out of this country beyond paying non union wages. If you think the money beyond what employees bring home stays in this country you are sadly mistaken. Your $70 an hour figure is BS as well. The average union scale is from 25-38 an hour.

I love the apathetic irony these days that swills around this country, for some reason it is so much more gratifying for people to crucify, then turn their noses up and walk away rather than grasp reality. Then when the time comes to face the music it's always someone elses fault.

 

[Lord Foul]

I don't personally own a car, so it sure as shit aint my fault.

But the $70/hour figure has been reported by the NY Times, Wall Street Journal, and a number of other historically reliable news sources. It is obviously higher than worker take home, but includes benefits and social security contributions. It seems to be an accurate description of the cost to employ a worker at GM or Ford.

 

[Altitudes]

Exactly, capitalism means that if you're not smart with your money, your business will fail, and that's fair. In the case of the government bank bailout over here in the UK, I can understand that, as allowing the banks to collapse would have destroyed most of the populations life savings.

But government bailouts for businesses? Fuck that.

Exactly.

 

[Nightshade]

I think you'll find that the problem is more complex than "fuck them". Not that I wouldn't like to see that, mind you, just that it's more complex, and it ties in with a bunch of other crap. The communities that have the American Auto Industries as their employment cornerstone are the ones that are in the biggest jeopardy. The problem is that they're already mostly fucked, and if the big 3 go down, they'll be completely fucked. It won't fuck us up here in Seattle -- we're dependent on other industries, and they're a little more diverse. Hell, there are lots of cities that won't go down. But there are some it would kill completely.

Remember, too, that we're not just talking about the companies that actually build the cars. Their suppliers would take a hit, as well. Now look at the bigger picture. You've got a near halt in homebuilding and home sales causing a loss of jobs. The companies that supply those industries are faltering and going under. Your financial institutions are laying off workers and consolodating, or going under. So now, you let the big three go under, loosing those jobs. Loss of business from them causes their suppliers to struggle or go under. That's a lot of people out of work who don't pay their bills 'cause they're not making any money. It causes a downward spiral effect in the affected communities, and makes the problem with the banks and the lending worse.

Conversely, if we throw money at this problem, it won't simply go away. It's not just that they build gas hogs or that nobody wants their cars, it's also that the ones who like those cars need financing to get them, and the financing simply isn't available for anyone who really needs it. The ones that don't really need the financing are hip to the current state of financial affairs, and are putting of major expenditures at this time, because they can. Ultimately, the big 3 are going to have to show that they're planning on building a more marketable product, and providing employment to more people, behave in a more accountable fashion, AND the banks are going to have to start lending again, if these companies are to be saved.

In the end, it can't just be a decision to let the big 3 choke on it or not, it has to be a much larger plan, if it's to do any good.