Eugenics

Norsemaiden said:
Many Asian women have operations to make their eyes look more European, so we can assume they would use genetic engineering for this.

Yes, many Asians do dream about the whole white look and some even decide to do plastic surgery. On a lesser extreme degree, its popular to dye your hair brown or blond in Japan. I admit I find some white women to be attractive but I think it is stupid to try to imitate that look.
 
Justin S. said:
Same here.

Nonetheless, thanks for the clarification Norsemaiden.

So, are you guys on about the Superman who wears his underpants on the other side of his pants? There's only room for one Superman concept in philosophy. (Sorry to be so particular!)
 
Demiurge said:
Right, I am definitely generalizing. The underlying theme, though, is that the advent of modern technology has allowed a reduced number of laborers to perform a task that in past times would require more. As such, we are seeing a reduced need for people who have little more than a strong back to offer.

I understood, and dont argue that there was a shift in economic roles (the lower rung didnt disappear)- however, these people are needed for menial tasks just as before, in fact our system (global capitalism) requires it. There must be someone losing out for others to profit, someone to man the telemarketing centers, some spiritless mass to consume at an ever-quickening pace to increase the profit margin. What is gone is the physical strain, not the need for a lower class reared for mindless activity.

Demiurge said:
I'm not exactly a technocrat, but I am not a Luddite, either. The way that technology is employed determines its worth. Further, I consider it basically inevitable. The cognitive ability that humans have evolved in combination with a great enough period of time engenders technological innovation. It can be hindered somewhat by religious traditions, but it breaks through, ever slowly. I also think that its employment is all but inevitable. Once the capability to cure a disease is discovered, people will use it. It is unproductive to try to put a lid on technology; this will only lead to frustration. The only possiblity to direct it as well as we can.

I think the blanket term "technology" is too general, and glides over what makes each advancement unique in its relation to man. A hammer is not a fission reactor. I am not a Luddite either, but anti-modernist in terms of the will-to-will character of modern technology (its oblivion of questions outside its system). All the activity for what, for whom, what then? Rather than seek to repress a trend towards a striving for exponential technological development (the actual event wont occur due to the constraints of our environment) through systems like religion, a true understanding and abandonment of its metaphysical foundations (the Greeks) must occur, a fundamental shift in thinking. This, of course, will not happen, which leads me to your next paragraph.

Demiurge said:
The goal is to bring the human element into harmony with his tools(really, his condition). Of course, I am presupposing that the person I am speaking to cares about his society or the human condition in general. That is a subject for another thread, though. It is possible for an individual to favor retreat from society and its governance, and live a life of serene solitude. In truth, I am sympathetic to this myself, but I am discussing this issue from the perspective of a person who wants to meliorate Western civilization.

Well put, but western civilization cannot be "meliorated", it will run its disastrous course. Similarly, the only eugenics that will be implemented, hopelessly flawed.

This thread is pure idealism.
 
Norsemaiden said:
So, are you guys on about the Superman who wears his underpants on the other side of his pants? There's only room for one Superman concept in philosophy. (Sorry to be so particular!)

No, but we may be discussing various appropriations of this concept/term, which (with respect to effect) is more significant.
 
There is a serious, serious problem here with the reasoning. The underlying assumption of those who propose eugenics, is that once those unmentionables are killed, the world will become a utopia--or at the very least, more intellectually stimulating. With a little rumination upon philosophy and our current society, it is obvious how untenable such a position is.

First, today we are dealing with a crisis of liberality, egalitarianism and reason. THe prevailing philosophical ethos is that of self-interest--that promotes egoism and materialism; democriticism and equality, in which no sane person wishes to be different or offend another; and of a lack of any form of valuation besides trite slogans and symbols. It is the bourgoeis nightmare as predicted, and abhorred by Rousseau, Nietzsche, Marx, Weber, and the great writers such as Flaubert, Joyce, Proust etc. Thus killing off the lesser persons not only offends these value-less notions of equality and democracy, but it does nothing to fix or stop the problem. If as Justin S. said in a early post, an entire culture and its thought is stuck in the cave not experiencing the truth, then what is the point of killing millions of the lesser individuals in intelligence, etc, if those that remain are cut off from the truth/good, and will remain so. Or if those that remain, will never produce any individuals that will create their own myth and personality for the salvation of all of man (Nietszche).

Secondly, this question was answered by Plato in the republic. The only way to create such a community is through the means of a totally authoratative philosopher run government that destroys existing society totally. Essentially, by taking such a step, unlike the Ancients--who accepted the fact philosophy was seperate to politics, one is making the claim that philosophy must become politics as well. And besides the commendable alternative Niezsche offers of a totally new re-valuation of the world by creative new gods if you will, to save ourselves from this nihilistic bourgouis state we are now in, one becomes what one hates by employing eugenics, as those rational enlightment, liberal and Hegelian philosophers did to produce our current state.

What is needed is not eugenics, but for some creative souls to create new myths, or for some persons to once again consider philosophy as a subject of utmost importance and to engage in a symposium or aristocracy of pure thought.
 
Sorry about the delay, but I’ve been very busy over the past few days. A few points:

1) Eugenics is an attempt to change the frequency of alleles in the population, which does not require killing anyone at all. A eugenics program could be as benign as many policies to limit pollution are. It’s a regrettable thing that “eugenics” conjures up images of a death squad(usually a Nazi one) executing those deemed undesirable, while their relatives weep in the background. This woeful caricature has been propagated by neo-Marxist academics and it has unfortunately taken its toll on people unfamiliar with the subject.

2) You seem concerned, Speed, with creativity. Which combination of traits it is that makes one creative is poorly understood, but it does appear correlated with intelligence. The man who “creates his own myth” will not have an IQ of 80; no, he will be an intelligent person. The people to the far left of the Gaussian curve are burdens to society, socially and economically, and they are not going to make their contributions philosophically, either.

3) I disagree that the only way to institute eugenics is through an authoritarian government. There were eugenics programs in many US states and the US was not authoritarian at the time. The programs were more stringent than ones I have proposed even, as there was forced sterilization. I realize that one could say “a-ha, forced sterilization. Its supporters may say that it need not be so harsh, but look at how it was instituted in the past.” Well, one can easily invalidate chemistry by pointing out the failures of alchemy, but would that really be a meaningful argument against it? Most certainly not.

4) Justin S., I agree that they are still needed, but less so, and they wouldn’t be needed hardly at all if we altered our economic system and stopped relying on superfluous markets to keep us afloat. That is how our machine works. After one market is exhausted, we make another and another, ad infinitum. It is woefully inefficient to have people producing commodities that nobody needs, when there are so many problems needing correction. Furthermore, I would argue that they are needed less. After all, technology has allowed fewer workers to perform the same amount of work, and with all of our ridiculous expansion, we just can’t keep up with the population. Moreover, life itself has become more complicated. To function as an autonomous individual in our society is more taxing upon a person's intellect than in past times.

5) If it is true that the fall cannot be averted, it is still not cause for the abandonment of eugenics. After the collapse of western civilization, there will be people remaining and they will begin to rebuild. At some point, a eugenics program should be instituted because dysgenics has been a historical problem for humanity. It leads to the fall of civilizations. Once they stratify, the upper will lag behind the lower in breeding and the civilization will weaken and become more vulnerable to invasion. Eventually, it will collapse upon itself, anyway. There needs to be a rigorous upkeep of the population’s quality, which will not allow it to last forever, but give it some degree of preservation. Furthermore, a civilization preserved in this way will be successful philosophically, scientifically, and otherwise. It will be a towering monument to human excellence, which will be looked upon with awe for as long as there are men to do so.

Understand that I am not attempting to create a science of history, whereby the cycles happen in only one way. It is rather, that certain threats always hang over the heads of civilizations, to which they risk succumbing.
 
Demiurge said:
Sorry about the delay, but I’ve been very busy over the past few days. A few points:

1) Eugenics is an attempt to change the frequency of alleles in the population, which does not require killing anyone at all. A eugenics program could be as benign as many policies to limit pollution are. It’s a regrettable thing that “eugenics” conjures up images of a death squad(usually a Nazi one) executing those deemed undesirable, while their relatives weep in the background. This woeful caricature has been propagated by neo-Marxist academics and it has unfortunately taken its toll on people unfamiliar with the subject.

2) You seem concerned, Speed, with creativity. Which combination of traits it is that makes one creative is poorly understood, but it does appear correlated with intelligence. The man who “creates his own myth” will not have an IQ of 80; no, he will be an intelligent person. The people to the far left of the Gaussian curve are burdens to society, socially and economically, and they are not going to make their contributions philosophically, either.

3) I disagree that the only way to institute eugenics is through an authoritarian government. There were eugenics programs in many US states and the US was not authoritarian at the time. The programs were more stringent than ones I have proposed even, as there was forced sterilization. I realize that one could say “a-ha, forced sterilization. Its supporters may say that it need not be so harsh, but look at how it was instituted in the past.” Well, one can easily invalidate chemistry by pointing out the failures of alchemy, but would that really be a meaningful argument against it? Most certainly not.

4) Justin S., I agree that they are still needed, but less so, and they wouldn’t be needed hardly at all if we altered our economic system and stopped relying on superfluous markets to keep us afloat. That is how our machine works. After one market is exhausted, we make another and another, ad infinitum. It is woefully inefficient to have people producing commodities that nobody needs, when there are so many problems needing correction. Furthermore, I would argue that they are needed less. After all, technology has allowed fewer workers to perform the same amount of work, and with all of our ridiculous expansion, we just can’t keep up with the population. Moreover, life itself has become more complicated. To function as an autonomous individual in our society is more taxing upon a person's intellect than in past times.

5) If it is true that the fall cannot be averted, it is still not cause for the abandonment of eugenics. After the collapse of western civilization, there will be people remaining and they will begin to rebuild. At some point, a eugenics program should be instituted because dysgenics has been a historical problem for humanity. It leads to the fall of civilizations. Once they stratify, the upper will lag behind the lower in breeding and the civilization will weaken and become more vulnerable to invasion. Eventually, it will collapse upon itself, anyway. There needs to be a rigorous upkeep of the population’s quality, which will not allow it to last forever, but give it some degree of preservation. Furthermore, a civilization preserved in this way will be successful philosophically, scientifically, and otherwise. It will be a towering monument to human excellence, which will be looked upon with awe for as long as there are men to do so.

Understand that I am not attempting to create a science of history, whereby the cycles happen in only one way. It is rather, that certain threats always hang over the heads of civilizations, to which they risk succumbing.

I hate to be too demanding, but you have not addressed my concern, which is essentially, eugenics without a serious change in culture and the prevailing ethos, will serve no end but eliminate those obvious imperfections of nature. And what does that serve? If today, the intelligent are not only supporting our current value-less age, but actually strengthening it--believing in it hook line and sinker. Then what shall they do? Why will these scientists, and lawyers, and businessmen that will not be effected, why will they change?

Furthermore, by taking such a route, you scorn the once held philosophical idea, that higher thought and creative etc, is for only a select few, and is not for the masses. Philosophy until the enlightenment had no designs on fixing or saving the little dumb people, but you do. Nietszche and Heidegger (who Ive finally begun reading) could'nt of cared about these little people either. Only the Leftists and Capitalist rightists, care about the whole of humanity. But why should I care? Why do you care?
 
Speed - I agree with you when you say that merely eliminating the lower IQ people will not in itself be sufficient to transform our society qualitatively into any kind of ideal.

You say what is needed is "for some creative souls to create new myths, or for some persons to once again consider philosophy as a subject of utmost importance". Unfortunately, although such a myth (Nietzsche's superman) has existed for decades, it remains an idea that can never become popular amongst the masses (for obvious reasons) and is reated against quite fiercely. The masses reject such philosophical ideas and oppose them - thus, how can they ever become the ruling idea, unless the masses (Man) is overcome?

Eugenics is necessary to prevent the intelligent from disappearing and the least intelligent from proliferating. Also it's necessary to prevent everyone born from being affected by serious genetic defects. This is not tantamount to caring about everyone in a silly universalist way, but simply realising that one's own bloodline is bound to breed with the people out there in the genepool - and so the individual must care to upgrade the whole genepool.

Anyone who associates eugenics with Nazis should take a look at this:http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Eugenics/jewish_eugenics.htm

"Castrating the mentally ill, encouraging reproduction among families 'numbered among the intelligentsia' and limiting the size of 'families of Eastern origin' and 'preventing ... lives that are lacking in purpose' - these proposals are not from some program of the Third Reich but rather were brought up by key figures in the Zionist establishment of the Land of Israel during the period of the British Mandate. It turns out there was a great deal of enthusiasm here for the improvement of the hereditary characteristics of a particular race (eugenics). This support, which has been kept under wraps for many years, is revealed in a study that examines the ideological and intellectual roots at the basis of the establishment of the health system in Israel."
 
Norsemaiden said:
Speed - I agree with you when you say that merely eliminating the lower IQ people will not in itself be sufficient to transform our society qualitatively into any kind of ideal.

You say what is needed is "for some creative souls to create new myths, or for some persons to once again consider philosophy as a subject of utmost importance". Unfortunately, although such a myth (Nietzsche's superman) has existed for decades, it remains an idea that can never become popular amongst the masses (for obvious reasons) and is reated against quite fiercely. The masses reject such philosophical ideas and oppose them - thus, how can they ever become the ruling idea, unless the masses (Man) is overcome?

Eugenics is necessary to prevent the intelligent from disappearing and the least intelligent from proliferating. Also it's necessary to prevent everyone born from being affected by serious genetic defects. This is not tantamount to caring about everyone in a silly universalist way, but simply realising that one's own bloodline is bound to breed with the people out there in the genepool - and so the individual must care to upgrade the whole genepool.

Anyone who associates eugenics with Nazis should take a look at this:http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Eugenics/jewish_eugenics.htm

"Castrating the mentally ill, encouraging reproduction among families 'numbered among the intelligentsia' and limiting the size of 'families of Eastern origin' and 'preventing ... lives that are lacking in purpose' - these proposals are not from some program of the Third Reich but rather were brought up by key figures in the Zionist establishment of the Land of Israel during the period of the British Mandate. It turns out there was a great deal of enthusiasm here for the improvement of the hereditary characteristics of a particular race (eugenics). This support, which has been kept under wraps for many years, is revealed in a study that examines the ideological and intellectual roots at the basis of the establishment of the health system in Israel."

Again the primary concern is not quantitative level of intelligence--its that of the values (if they can be called values) of the culture, and the total absence of any creativity, philosophical introspections, individuality, and well the runaway train nature of science and the economy (bounded by no ethics or values other than itself). If you use eugenics, but fail to fix the problem, there is no greater probability the smart ones, will suddenly revalue the world around them. Today, there are plenty of smart people around, but they are entering the business, or technical field, without even a thought or any knowledge of the bigger picture or culture itself.

Hence, eugenics solve nothing other than satisfy these problematic desires for some future equality amongst peoples. I fail to see why stupid or challenged people should not be allowed to live, or should be forced out of nature.
 
I find it somewhat disturbing that people are actually suggesting that society should rid itself of "dumb" people. Who exactly are you to make this judgement in the first place? On the matter of eugenics, the only good I see from this research would be increased resistance to disease and perhaps the elimination of HIV/AIDS and cancer from future generations. Of course this is a slippery slope, as many scientific achievments are. As the current obsession with cosmetic surgery shows us, many in society will go to any means necessary to feel more "appealing" to society at large. My main concern would be the loss of individuality, which should be an essential part of living in a free society. All "dumb" people should be done away with, leaving only the "elite" to survive? Am I the only one who sees a hint of hypocrisy here?
 
Speed, firstly, I enjoy discussing with you, but I would prefer that you didn’t continue to mention “not letting them live.” That is a strawman that has been used to discredit eugenics for too long. As I explained, that is not what eugenics necessarily is.

I do not believe I have communicated adequately the problem of dysgenics. Let us consider intelligence as a prerequisite for your transvaluation. Persons who do not meet it quite simply haven’t a chance. I think that you will agree that a person with an IQ of 75 cannot adequately grasp valuation philosophically, and certainly will not be able to transcend conventionality by carving out his own values. If people low in intelligence continue to outbreed the intelligent, there will be fewer and fewer humans with the capacity for your transvaluation. Eventually, there will be virtually none. I realize that it is difficult to imagine a country like America experiencing a catastrophic intellectual atavism, but I believe the wheels are in motion. We are moving towards there being no one with even the capacity for “creativity, philosophical introspections, individuality…”
 
These people you deem too unintelligent to contribute to society in a meaningful way actually contribute more than a full auditorium full of pseudo-intellectuals. These majority of these people are the ones who do the dirty work. Work, fight, build, protect, etc. These people are the ones who allow you the luxury of criticizing their intelligence and their contributions to the evolution of the human race. By the way, there are many different levels of intelligence. Reading alot of books and using fancy language is one level, actually creating things and making a society work is another.
 
Here's what they contribute:
!) increased criminality
2) increased poverty
3) increased welfare recipience
4) decreased academic achievement
5) decreased occupational performance

Intelligence is the general factor that underlies all cognitive abilities, which is why they all correlate positively. Tests of reaction time correlate with the ability to solve math problems which correlates with vocabulary which correlates with the figural aspect of field dependence tests, and so forth.
 
You blame all these problems you cite on people with low intelligence. I tend to blame our society as a whole for these problems. The dumbing down of America is an ongoing phenomena that I don't blame on global conspiracies or secret organizations, but a natural occurrence due to the peak of Western culture and influence. Greed is the name of the game, and for those who don't find the "American dream", they can be content with sensational television, sports, music, etc. These media genres have an effect on society as a whole, and intellectual exploration isn't one of them, at least in most cases.
 
Demiurge said:
Speed, firstly, I enjoy discussing with you, but I would prefer that you didn’t continue to mention “not letting them live.” That is a strawman that has been used to discredit eugenics for too long. As I explained, that is not what eugenics necessarily is.

I do not believe I have communicated adequately the problem of dysgenics. Let us consider intelligence as a prerequisite for your transvaluation. Persons who do not meet it quite simply haven’t a chance. I think that you will agree that a person with an IQ of 75 cannot adequately grasp valuation philosophically, and certainly will not be able to transcend conventionality by carving out his own values. If people low in intelligence continue to outbreed the intelligent, there will be fewer and fewer humans with the capacity for your transvaluation. Eventually, there will be virtually none. I realize that it is difficult to imagine a country like America experiencing a catastrophic intellectual atavism, but I believe the wheels are in motion. We are moving towards there being no one with even the capacity for “creativity, philosophical introspections, individuality…”

Yes, yes. I know we can sterilze such people. It started in virginia correct? I believe the nazis borrowed all of their research on eugenics from America as well.

Regardless, I wonder what kind of programs you are advocating. Furthermore, I wonder why you would wish our present government to have such power? Such a intrusion on a citizens rights, will only bred further intrusions in the future; if the government is allowed to conduct such policies, then what will stop them from in the future, from expanding into genetic engineering for all citizens? Then this takes on a A Huxley Brave New World future.

Essentially you propose unlimited state power over the very process of human propogation--which is entirely against nature--for the hope, that some of these more-intelligent persons will be more likely to "get it" in the future (maybe they will, we dont know--they have a better chance; and of course they also must swim upstream against prevailing thought, culture and valuation as well if they are to have this chance. Not very good odds I say.), and that such a proposal will lower crime and other such undesirable aspects of human nature. Yet clearly these studies on crime and intelligence are highly suspect as is all social science, and clearly you make the inference that intelligence=philosophical capability and thus=the good. Is this the case? I can name countless intelligent people that havent the slightest clue how to interpret philosophy, society or cultural, nor will they ever create anything in the sciences/technical realm. Measured Intelligence really means nothing but a greater probability or capacity of understanding.
 
Not all intelligent people are able to be philosophical or wise, but those that are able are all intelligent are they not? Speed, do you not accept that the present dysgenics (approved of by the government) will severely diminish the capability of humans to think philosophically?

The whole point of the dysgenics is to breed mindless slaves who have no rebellious spirit or ability to realise that things could even be so much better.
No one should be naive enough to think that we can expect a U turn and that all of a sudden independently minded, questioning minds will be favoured in some kind of government sponsored eugenic programme.

This dysgencs is not accidental.
 
Norsemaiden said:
Not all intelligent people are able to be philosophical or wise, but those that are able are all intelligent are they not? Speed, do you not accept that the present dysgenics (approved of by the government) will severely diminish the capability of humans to think philosophically?

The whole point of the dysgenics is to breed mindless slaves who have no rebellious spirit or ability to realise that things could even be so much better.
No one should be naive enough to think that we can expect a U turn and that all of a sudden independently minded, questioning minds will be favoured in some kind of government sponsored eugenic programme.

This dysgencs is not accidental.

First, I dont think the government actively supports a dysgenics program. The economy and changing me-me society and decadence have taken care of the intelligent, the rich, upper middle, and middle class, producing babies at a replacement level.

Second, you know throughout history, it doesnt take many intelligent people, to start a whole new way of life. For instance, in the golden age of Greek philosophy--and Roman as well, most persons were slaves or simple workers with no education. Only a small percentage of people were educated, and guess what? They turned out the Platos and Aristotles, the Democritus' and Archimedes. In the renaissance and enlightenment, again, the vast majority of persons were poor or peasants, and would have been without education. It really hasnt been until the 19th century that there has even been a educated middle class. And with such a rise in average intelligence that has occurred in the last 200 years, we havent exactly done the greatest have we? We can now destroy the world and live like automatons. Point being, that greater numbers of intelligent people are not needed for change.
 
When you say "greater numbers of intelligent people are not needed for change" do you mean that there are sufficient people right now in our society? But where are they hiding and why is there no sign of progress? I feel as if you or I (and others on this forum) could be in such a category, but we are inhibited aren't we? We feel isolated don't we? We would face a struggle against the ignorance of the population as well as the tyranny/arrogance of our rulers. The present dysgenics takes us further away from a solution.

Some governments seem a lot more interested in improving the quality of their populations that ours do.

"In 1986 Singapore became the first democratic country to adopt an openly eugenic policy by guaranteeing pay increases to female university graduates when they give birth to a child, while offering grants towards house purchases for nongraduate married women on condition that they are sterilized after the first or second child. In China in June 1995, a law was passed making it illegal for carriers of certain genetic diseases to marry unless they agree to sterilization or long-term contraception. All couples wishing to marry must undergo genetic screening."

http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/eugenic

Intelligence far from guarantees the ability to think philosophically, but extreme lack of intelligence surely guarantees it won't happen - so that's the fate we must avoid.
 
Norsemaiden said:
Intelligence far from guarantees the ability to think philosophically, but extreme lack of intelligence surely guarantees it won't happen - so that's the fate we must avoid.

The problem with democracies is that people are given the freedom NOT to listen to philosophers and others of high intelligence.

Oppression (for those who cannot make decisions) is freedom (for all).