Exactly how common is/was the use of vocal tuning? When did it start to become a norm

[egan.]

I am so fucking sick of the idea that if you aren't farting into a tuba accompanied by a monk bloodletting onto a field snare then you aren't making "real art." As though being willfully obtuse and contrarian lends any more credibility to you than if you wrote pop songs. If making the music brings you joy that's great, but don't try to discredit someone else for finding the same joy in different music. Of the hundreds of musicians I know (including guys doing stadium tours), very few make a living just writing and playing. There are few people in the world who could do this for anything but the love. It just doesn't work like that.

Now on topic, pre AT they would do the eventide trick mentioned and also would slow down the tape so singers could hit notes. However, by far the most common method of "pitch correction" (or guitar, drums, etc.) was to simply hire a ghost musician to come in and do it better.

Like it or not, AT is the modern standard and is applied to great singers who don't need it b/c it's the sound of the day. The notion that it's only used as "talent replacement" is simply incorrect. Now, if you don't like the sound then your best bet would be to cater to "academic" music styles or align yourself with really talented, like-minded artists (good luck).

 

[Seth Munson]

I seriously hate when vocals sound out of tune

most people cringe when hearing a guitar/bass out of tune, I do this for vocals

 

[Seth Munson]

Like it or not, AT is the modern standard and is applied to great singers who don't need it b/c it's the sound of the day. The notion that it's only used as "talent replacement" is simply incorrect. Now, if you don't like the sound then your best bet would be to cater to "academic" music styles or align yourself with really talented, like-minded artists (good luck).

+1 forsure dude

 

[grywolf627]

I seriously hate when vocals sound out of tune

most people cringe when hearing a guitar/bass out of tune, I do this for vocals

It's like nails being driven through my ear drums when anything is off pitch...especially vocals and guitars.

 

[reg3n]

if we're talking music (whick i think, it's the correct forum right?) my opinion is it doesn't sound bad when done well, but attempts against the concept of REAL music. Records <> Real music.

 

[theRev]

Tuning vocals gives the singer a reason for being sloppy/lazy.
"ahh well, just fix that later..."

No singer with self respect will ever accept vocal tuning.
I'll rather sing off pitch. :Spin:

As well as editing guitars/bass/drum give the same reason to other band members.

Why edit drums or guitars should be ok and "editing" vocals shouldn't? Well, let me clarify, I understand your point, and training are the base for a good technique, but if you record a hell of a cool song that give me emotions, than you can fix minor performance issues with the tool you are acquainted with.

 

[Menthal]

As well as editing guitars/bass/drum give the same reason to other band members.

Why edit drums or guitars should be ok and "editing" vocals shouldn't? Well, let me clarify, I understand your point, and training are the base for a good technique, but if you record a hell of a cool song that give me emotions, than you can fix minor performance issues with the tool you are acquainted with.

Have you ever used auto-tuning to fix a guitarist performance when it comes to bending? Is there a tool that can make a shitty guitarist's vibrato sound good?

I rather go to the route of the problem, then trying to patch things up at a later stage. That's the way I go about things.

 

[if6was9]

This is getting out of hand and IMO gone way of topic. It wasn't a thread about the validity of Autotune but on who/why/how/when was it done first. This kinda things been discussed to death and you'll always have someone chiming in that they don't think it should be used because it's fake/evil/gay etc...

 

[Skinny Viking]

However, by far the most common method of "pitch correction" (or guitar, drums, etc.) was to simply hire a ghost musician to come in and do it better.

I was gonna mention this as well but it seemed almost pointless cause I thought it might just stir up another shitstorm

 

[John_C]

I haven't really read this as i'm sure it's just the same old

Isn't it really the attitude that's the problem? Fixing up an ok performance with a few slipups is fine,

but

the attitude that you don't have to be able to play your instrument (the voice is an instrument, people ) because it can all be fixed later is damaging and devalues the entire idea of what it is to be a musician.

edit: this is controversial and really just a passing thought: Ridiculously low pricing from bedroom engineers can severely skew and damage the market, is it fair to say that ridiculous amounts of performance fixing severely skews and damages the expectations of musicians and audience alike and henceforth should be discouraged in the same way?

 

[Machinated]

I haven't really read this as i'm sure it's just the same old

Isn't it really the attitude that's the problem? Fixing up an ok performance with a few slipups is fine,

but

the attitude that you don't have to be able to play your instrument (the voice is an instrument, people ) because it can all be fixed later is damaging and devalues the entire idea of what it is to be a musician.

edit: this is controversial and really just a passing thought: Ridiculously low pricing from bedroom engineers can severely skew and damage the market, is it fair to say that ridiculous amounts of performance fixing severely skews and damages the expectations of musicians and audience alike and henceforth should be discouraged in the same way?

as much as I agree with this, dont you think it also allows people with less singing talent who wouldnt normally be able to release/write stuff they do give them an opportunity to express themselves because of it?

im sure there are a lot of great songwriters who RELY on autotune, but because their performances can be fixed up, they have since released great songs that wouldn't have happened otherwise?

theres always 2 sides to it, as people have said.

in some ways i think if vocalists are used to hearing songs recorded in tune, it kind of gives them a higher standard to aim for much like the point about drum triggers and drums.

and on the second point: neither will go away, its about adapting and getting used to it as the future.

 

[John_C]

as much as I agree with this, dont you think it also allows people with less singing talent who wouldnt normally be able to release/write stuff they do give them an opportunity to express themselves because of it?

im sure there are a lot of great songwriters who RELY on autotune, but because their performances can be fixed up, they have since released great songs that wouldn't have happened otherwise?

theres always 2 sides to it, as people have said.

in some ways i think if vocalists are used to hearing songs recorded in tune, it kind of gives them a higher standard to aim for much like the point about drum triggers and drums.

and on the second point: neither will go away, its about adapting and getting used to it as the future.

Good points.

However, I think most people could sing in tune if they put in some decent practice. In primary school (tiny rural place, only 35 students) we had 4 part harmony going on with the whole school and all the students over about 8 who'd been there for more than a year or so could sing in tune. My mum runs a singing group in a local town, about half of the people who join have never done any serious singing before and many have terrible problems with intonation. After a year or so, if they go relatively regularily they all end up capable of singing in tune. Now my mum is quite a good singing teacher, but there are MANY better ones out there.
I am still a firm believer that if you're gonna say you're a carpenter you should be able to cut in a straight line and also that with the exception of people with serious motor and/or mental problems EVERYONE can cut a straight line if they are prepared to put in the work. Same goes for singing.

Apologies for a rather convoluted and repetetive answer :Spin:

 

[ahjteam]

Autotune is basically just a variation of vocoder, which came in to the market in 1930's and was popular in the 1970's funk and electronic music like Kraftwerk.

 

[Machinated]

Good points.

However, I think most people could sing in tune if they put in some decent practice. In primary school (tiny rural place, only 35 students) we had 4 part harmony going on with the whole school and all the students over about 8 who'd been there for more than a year or so could sing in tune. My mum runs a singing group in a local town, about half of the people who join have never done any serious singing before and many have terrible problems with intonation. After a year or so, if they go relatively regularily they all end up capable of singing in tune. Now my mum is quite a good singing teacher, but there are MANY better ones out there.
I am still a firm believer that if you're gonna say you're a carpenter you should be able to cut in a straight line and also that with the exception of people with serious motor and/or mental problems EVERYONE can cut a straight line if they are prepared to put in the work. Same goes for singing.

Apologies for a rather convoluted and repetetive answer :Spin:

yeah, i dont disagree with you at all. you see where im coming from though, its kind of like having dj's who know FUCK ALL about music being able to create really cool songs.

or even, think of all the shitty guitarists that are famous. i bet in the studio they had someone there to tune and set up their instrument for them, coax a decent take out of them, and then as soon as the song is a hit they are hailed as a hero. like based on talent they shouldnt get anywhere, but evidently they have something to offer that people of a lot more talent dont.

pretty vague answer, but yeah its not all bad (even though a lot of bad has come of it).

EVEN STILL, despite the autotune effect being way overused, especially in pop I like the fact it will sound dated. it just means music with it in will remind us of these years. i dont expect all music to be timeless and when it does sound dated its not like it will nauseate me anymore than it does now. well, actually im so used to it that it doesnt really bother me, its just an effect like anything else.

 

[theRev]

EVEN STILL, despite the autotune effect being way overused, especially in pop I like the fact it will sound dated.

Probably you guys are discussing about 2 things of it's own:

1) someone is discussing like they are referring about using Autotune to, uh, TUNE the vocals and adjust some errors


2) some other guys talks about they are referring to the CHER autotune effect, which is not what the Autotune software is created for in the first place.

For me you should clarify that bit, because some posts just seems to talk about how "the CHER fx is bad". The autotune workflow I like to talk about is the one where you fix some notes in such a transparent way that people can't even understand if you inserted the Autotune or Melodyne plugin at all in the DAW.

 

[John_C]

yeah, i dont disagree with you at all. you see where im coming from though, its kind of like having dj's who know FUCK ALL about music being able to create really cool songs.

or even, think of all the shitty guitarists that are famous. i bet in the studio they had someone there to tune and set up their instrument for them, coax a decent take out of them, and then as soon as the song is a hit they are hailed as a hero. like based on talent they shouldnt get anywhere, but evidently they have something to offer that people of a lot more talent dont.

pretty vague answer, but yeah its not all bad (even though a lot of bad has come of it).

EVEN STILL, despite the autotune effect being way overused, especially in pop I like the fact it will sound dated. it just means music with it in will remind us of these years. i dont expect all music to be timeless and when it does sound dated its not like it will nauseate me anymore than it does now. well, actually im so used to it that it doesnt really bother me, its just an effect like anything else.

True.....

It's a bit tricky but i guess it can be expressed as the difference between an arranger, a composer and a musician. Agreed about the dating thing, it'll really fix an era in music, just like an 80s pop snare!

about the idea of what to aim for: It does make people aim high, but in a lot of cases it makes people aim much too high. It's the same effect as girls getting boob jobs, aiming at an unrealistic standard and ending up made of plastic.

 

[JeffTD]

or even, think of all the shitty guitarists that are famous. i bet in the studio they had someone there to tune and set up their instrument for them, coax a decent take out of them, and then as soon as the song is a hit they are hailed as a hero. like based on talent they shouldnt get anywhere, but evidently they have something to offer that people of a lot more talent dont.

This is a great point - not to say that he's shitty, but I can tell you guys proof positive that Jackson Browne is by far the worst guitarist and singer in 'the Jackson Browne' band - doesn't change the fact that he's an incredibly talented songwriter, and if it weren't for studio tricks (back in his day, ghost musicians as Egan mentioned), he wouldn't have sounded as good as he did.

 

[Menthal]

Is it possible to have a good sounding auto-tuner in real time, so people can use it live?

 

[Skinny Viking]

^ Yes but you have to be VERY precise with the settings ... there are various videos on youtube you can find that show the outcome otherwise ... just look for anything like "auto-tune live fail" or something similar

 

[egan.]

Antares used to make a box (before the plugin actually). You could obviously just use the plugin if you were mixing on a Venue as well. Auto is never as good as graphic but it does get used all of the time live. If you search YT their are some examples of it going horribly wrong. The Billy Joel national anthem comes to mind.