FAQ: Live shows with backing tracks - HOW TO?

[DanLights]

Thanks Anssi for doing this, finally a good go to thread on backing tracks. When I'm home I'll post a problem I've been having with my setup (config #1) to see if someone can help me

 

[JonWormwood]

Had a problem with running bt off a macbookpro recently. Stage vibrations were triggering some kind of auto protect shut down or vibrating it so the space bar was 'triggering' causing the track to stop. Happened at a few shows. Any ideas or am I in the right track.

It's probably the velocity sensor or whatever shutting down the HDD. You can disable that. If it's under apple care, tell them your keyboard is all fucked and try to get a new one?

 

[t-rave]

heres what i use...similar to the mp3 thing but alot more performance friendly

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/...lution-incorporating-live-backing-tracks.html

 

[ahjteam]

Had a problem with running bt off a macbookpro recently. Stage vibrations were triggering some kind of auto protect shut down or vibrating it so the space bar was 'triggering' causing the track to stop. Happened at a few shows. Any ideas or am I in the right track.

The cons on configuration 2 is exactly this:

- Can cause skipping


Possible solutions:

- Separate bass cabinet from the floor (the milk crates are good for example) and don't give the drummer a wedge, or at least not a sub-fill
- Putt the laptop on a solid platform with minimal contact to the floor (the milk crates are good here too) and then put something underneath that isolates the vibrations, like iso pads or a towel underneath it (but beware, the laptop generates a lot of heat!)
- If these don't solve the problem, get a cheap laptop (we call them "miniläppäri", and I think they are called "netbook" in English) with Flash hard drive (you can get them for less than 300&#8364, because they don't have the same problem as there is no hard drive that moves.

 

[Estudio Blost]

Hi guys!!...definitely love this thread!!

I'd like to see what do you think about something...

Suppose you're using configuration #2 but with an 8 outputs interface (Profire 2626 in this case)

Say you want to have Outputs 1 & 2 for the stereo backing tracks
Then Outputs 3 & 4 for the drummer to listen not just the click but also the backing tracks in stereo.

We still have 4 spare outputs, so..

Have anyone of you ever been interested in using for example the spare Outputs 5 & 6 (in this case) for the main vocals once being processed by the DAW. I mean, I love adding some stereo delay to my vocals on some parts and this a great way to get good results. You can automate delay parts for each song and forget about it. Just play and sing.

That assuming you don't have a live sound engineer that knows each and every song in detail, when and where each delay goes, and the different parameters of each delay part. In that case, the guy could do the whole thing himself.

Btw. For this example I talk about using 2 outputs for the vocals due to the stereo delay thing, but that's only my choice, it should work fine even using a mono output/mono delay.

Have anyone of you ever had success with some this setup?..

If so, what'd be your approach on the best way of connecting the whole thing on stage?

...just curious.

Thanks for this thread guys......you always rock!!

 

[drew_drummer]

My live triggering rig that I use sometimes:

------------------------------------
Macbook running MidiPipe and Ableton Live.
Ground Control Pro.
Mackie Satellite.
M-Audio MidiSport 4x4.
--------------------------------

So basically I connect the Macbook + Mackie Satellite + MidiSport. This gives me a midi input, low latency sound output, and a sequencer to work with.

MidiPipe is a bit of OSX software that converts midi signals. I use it to convert the program changes from the GCP to midi notes.

Each PGM then triggers a midi note in Ableton Live, which triggers a midi clip inside Live. This clip is pointed at a synth, or it could be a sample... whatever really.

With this setup, I can hit the next preset button on the GCP, and sequentially trigger samples or sequences.

Currently I use it to play a synth line with my foot, whilst at the same time playing guitar.

 

[Charlie E.]

Question.
Instead of relying on the venue's soundguy to feed the backing track back to the drummer, wouldn't it be more reliable to plug both cables into the drummer's mixer and run an aux out with the backing track to the main board? Especially in less than stellar venues with poor setups.

 

[TheWinterSnow]

Question.
Instead of relying on the venue's soundguy to feed the backing track back to the drummer, wouldn't it be more reliable to plug both cables into the drummer's mixer and run an aux out with the backing track to the main board? Especially in less than stellar venues with poor setups.

Thats what sneds in the DAW are for, like I mentioned in my previous post you can setup a stereo out for just the backing tracks, then with the send, send the backing tracks to the other out that has the click, adjust the backing track volume via the send so that the click is audible and hook up the drummer's in ears to the interfaces output.

 

[ahjteam]

Question.
Instead of relying on the venue's soundguy to feed the backing track back to the drummer, wouldn't it be more reliable to plug both cables into the drummer's mixer and run an aux out with the backing track to the main board? Especially in less than stellar venues with poor setups.

If the sound guy is wasted or high as fuck, I even encourage you to do so, but if the guys are sober and professionals, it's highly a preference questions if you do have extra outputs. (edit: now that I re-read your question: DON'T do it) My personal opinion is that since you are usually always anyway getting a signal from the FOH/monitor engineer, I don't see the benefit since I think less is usually always better. Less cables is always less cables and less hassle and less stuff in the monitors is always cleaner sound. Personally I prefer to use just 1 TRS input for the click and 1 XLR input for the music (also the amount of sends in the mixer is usually the limiting factor on this). Also it couldn't be more simple while still being totally usable. If there comes a panic situation, troubleshooting is also way faster with just two inputs.

Personally I dispise stereo click and in general I prefer to mono for everything when it comes to monitoring, even on stereo sources. If you have a stereo click or background track and for some fucking reason one of the cables, channels or DI-boxes are accidentally out of phase, that can fuck your shit up real good. If there is a mono instruments in the background track, it can get almost totally cancelled out on the floor wedges or becomes really fucking annoying on the headphones and in worst case scenarios can ruin the whole show. Has happened way more often than I would've wanted.

That assuming you don't have a live sound engineer that knows each and every song in detail, when and where each delay goes, and the different parameters of each delay part. In that case, the guy could do the whole thing himself.

Btw. For this example I talk about using 2 outputs for the vocals due to the stereo delay thing, but that's only my choice, it should work fine even using a mono output/mono delay.

Have anyone of you ever had success with some this setup?

The stereo image rarely matters in live settings, so mono delay is more than enough usually. And if there is a sound engineer, just let him do his thing. If you want to have specific delay stuff for specific songs at specific times, hire your own sound guy. Simple as that.

 

[Charlie E.]

Thats what sneds in the DAW are for, like I mentioned in my previous post you can setup a stereo out for just the backing tracks, then with the send, send the backing tracks to the other out that has the click, adjust the backing track volume via the send so that the click is audible and hook up the drummer's in ears to the interfaces output.

Except I wanna do the iPod thing so this wouldn't apply

 

[ahjteam]

Except I wanna do the iPod thing so this wouldn't apply

ah, now that I re-read what you meant, please don't do that.

 

[Charlie E.]

Just so there's no confusion.
I mean plugging both ends of the Y cable from the iPod into a small mixer. The drummer can then control how much click he wants etc.
Then use an Aux out and route only the backing track to that. Run that to a DI and into the main board.

Why should I not do this? Especially at venues with broken or no monitors or any available returns.

 

[DanLights]

Just so there's no confusion.
I mean plugging both ends of the Y cable from the iPod into a small mixer. The drummer can then control how much click he wants etc.
Then use an Aux out and route only the backing track to that. Run that to a DI and into the main board.

Why should I not do this? Especially at venues with broken or no monitors or any available returns.

I've been doing exactly this at rehearsals, (haven't had the chance to do it live) and it works perfectly, except I can't seem to find a small mixer that has pre-fader aux, I use a behringer xenyx something but the aux is post-fader so if the drummer moves his volumes then they affect the FOH send and viceversa, and I can't give the drummer the Aux for the click cause the fader needs to be open in the main out for it to work, get my drift?

What mixer are/would you be using Charlie? Or anyone, any good idea on this?

 

[Charlie E.]

It's a Mackie VLZ 1202. I honestly don't know if the aux is pre or post but I'll give it a try either this weekend or next and let you know.

Edit: just checked. Apparantly the auxes have a pre/post switch so I should be good to go.

 

[ahjteam]

Why should I not do this? Especially at venues with broken or no monitors or any available returns.

The no or broken monitors is not a problem because you are using the in-ear monitoring system, remember? If they don't have any available returns, you won't hear anything from the band anyway. If you insist on taking the signal directly to your mixer, most DI-boxes do have a THRU link. Just take it from there.

 

[gmo18t]

Hi,

for "CONFIGURATION 1 - stereo setup" i've found a near "all-in-one" solution like this.
Link to manufactuerer here.

PROS:
- robust metal housing
- 1/4" stereo headphones out
- headphone preamp with volume control
- 2x XLR master-out (active dual channel DI+ground lift)
- selector switch for master output (left, right, both)
- Master volume control
- stereo line input via ipod docking connector or seperate 1/8" stereo jack
- stereo aux in (RCA) with adjustable level
- 1/8" remote control input
- powered by external plug or via phantom power over XLR
- some simple mixing capabilities

for example, you can e.g. route the left input channel (e.g. klicktrack) to headphone left+right(!) and the right input channel (e.g. backingtrack) to the right XLR out ...
... or blend some backing to headphones too etc.

CONS:
- no remote control device available (just in planning)
- ipod on docking connector isn't very stable (can loose contact)

I will mount a |_| formed peace of metal on this box to hold the IPOD better in place and make it more robust for live situations.
Anyway controling of an IPOD on stage isn't a joy ...

Next issue with an IPOD is the limited level of its headphone output (don't know if the lineout on the docking connector is also a bit low).
Our drummer complains about a to quiet click sound, even if the headphone volume on the "SM Pro"-Box is maxed (same, when using IPOD phones directly) .

I'am thinking about to use a Sony PSP as MP3 source player, connected via cable to the "SM Pro"-Box ...

What are your expierences with MP3 players for live backings ?

- GMo -

 

[ahjteam]

this

Without having any personal experiences on the apparatus, but just from your description it sucks for the application. You need SEPARATE volume control for the click track and music for the drummer, because they usually are blasting the click loud as fuck on their headphones compared to everything else. Also with that setup you would also need an input for the rest of the band mix too and many venues don't have two extra sends and XLR to RCA adapters.

Just keep it simple;
- mp3 player -> 1/8" stereo minijack to dual mono 1/4" jack adapter cable (like this or this)
- music: left plug to DI-box (like this or this or this) and to FOH
- click: right plug straight to drummers mixer (like this or this or this or this or this or this)
- XLR return from the FOH to a new channel to drummers mixer for full band mix

 

[Charlie E.]

The no or broken monitors is not a problem because you are using the in-ear monitoring system, remember? If they don't have any available returns, you won't hear anything from the band anyway. If you insist on taking the signal directly to your mixer, most DI-boxes do have a THRU link. Just take it from there.

I guess I just figured I'd dumb it down to prevent any mistakes. Getting a return from an inexperienced engineer or as you put it someone who may be high or drunk makes me nervous.
I'm an engineer myself and even when I'm very careful shit happens sometimes.
However the THRU option sounds great! Dunno why I didn't think of that before.
I was also pondering a little more and realized that I could use a Y cable for my guitar mic and plug that in to our mixer too in case the venue has no returns. Then I could use a second aux for myself (I just ordered a wireless in ear monitor) and my drummer would have no problems hearing me either.

 

[gmo18t]

Without having any personal experiences on the apparatus, but just from your description it sucks for the application. You need SEPARATE volume control for the click track and music for the drummer, because they usually are blasting the click loud as fuck on their headphones compared to everything else.

there is SEPERATE volume control for each channel ! This box is very versatile (see Manual).

Also with that setup you would also need an input for the rest of the band mix too and many venues don't have two extra sends and XLR to RCA adapters.

we need only the solution for 1 clicktrack (mono) to drummer and 1 backingtrack (mono) send via XLR to FO. Doesn't need "rest of the band mix".

My main problem is to find the right MP3-player with a high enough output level or i need a good advice how to process the click track to be loud as hell
Other solution would be using a mini mixer as "afterburner" for headphone output. But this seems a little bit oversized to me. Eventually there is a cheap and handy (pocket-)headphone amp ?

Just keep it simple;
- mp3 player -> 1/8" stereo minijack to dual mono 1/4" jack adapter cable (like this or this)
- music: left plug to DI-box (like this or this or this) and to FOH
- click: right plug straight to drummers mixer (like this or this or this or this or this or this)

that's all together in the SM-Pro Box, so it's just a touch more simple

- XLR return from the FOH to a new channel to drummers mixer for full band mix

not needed, our drummer want to hear "click only".

We already used the solution (devices) mentioned by you in earlier gigs. But it was still to much fiddling around.
In the best case with the SM-Pro Box you need only one phantom powered connection to FO and a headphone connection for the drummer.

- GMo -

 

[Keregioz]

I use configuration 1, mp3 player -> Y-cable -> click to drummer and backing to foh. We do it in rehearsals and one time on an actual live show and it was ok. The only problem is I don't have independent volume control of the backing track on stage, only the soundguy can control it.

I have a question, how important is for the backing track to be stereo? Because I always thought that no one can really tell the difference in live situations.