Funny, but sad truth as well...

The difference to a scene now versus 10-20 years ago? = money.
I think money is a component of it. However, I maintain, the biggest problem is interest. Not enough people are interested, especially at the age of a typical concert goer, with respect to the music we typically discuss. Look at this forum; Glenn has to bend over backwards to get 1,300 people to this show. This show, which is on Friday and Saturday night. This show, which you have plenty of advance notice for. This show, which is held at an exceptional venue and magnificently run. This show, which features bands you will likely never have a second chance to see again. And he struggles to get 1,300 people out of country of 300,000,000. The problem, quite simply, is a complete lack of interest.
 
The problem, quite simply, is a complete lack of interest.

Yup. We're forgetting that at one point, heavy metal was "in". It's no longer "in". Right now, around here, what's "in" is boring-ass hipster-indie-rock. Young ladies with ukeleles and young men with skinny jeans whisper singing to an acoustic guitar. They wear clothes that don't fit right and collect vinyl from artists who no longer make music. That's what's in. I don't get it, but these guys play shows EVERY SINGLE NIGHT in DC and are never in want of an audience.

Metal has it's own unique audience, but we're a minority. So even when we give metal fans every single advantage (booking way in advance, weekend gig, lots of great music), there's still only so many people who will go because even the guys who saw Judas Priest in Heavy Metal Parking Lot aren't into metal anymore because it's too loud or too scary or whatever lame-ass excuse exists for people who don't like metal.
 
Yup. We're forgetting that at one point, heavy metal was "in". It's no longer "in". Right now, around here, what's "in" is boring-ass hipster-indie-rock. .

Don't forget the boring-ass hipster-metal, too.



Frankly the Atlanta metal scene is thriving. We have three local record labels with national (and int'l) distribution, packed shows on those dreaded weeknights, etc. And it's only growing. There was even a pretty solid article in Creative Loafing about it today. http://clatl.com/atlanta/metal-sadistic-ritual/Content?oid=8460765
 
If metal isn't "in" how does Metallica pull off Orion Fest? or better yet how does VOLBEAT book a show here at the Greensboro Coliseum? Certain types of metal are still VERY in, it just doesn't happen to the be the metal that most of here enjoy. Plenty of Monster Mayhem type festivals running around the country this summer too. Again, ALL metal festivals.

I agree with Zod and Glen that a lack of interest is hurting PP, but lack of funds for some people definitely keep them away, despite their desire and interest to come. Travel, hotels, food, tickets, etc. It adds up even if staying in a hotel way out of town like we do to cut back on costs and luckily I live within driving distance to ATL here in NC, but adding a flight cost to my trip would suck that is for sure.
 
The money factor is the main one I think. For my case, I'd love to go to PP every year, I wanted to come every year, but didn't until 2012. But being from Canada, flying is very expensive ($550) from here. Add to this lodging, tickets, meals and everything else, and for me, it'll cost more than $1200 to attend this year. I'm not sure I'll be able to attend next year, even if the line-up is killer. I'll have to see how it goes then. So, the interest is really there, but the money factor can hurt. It's not everyone with a family that is able to spend that kind of money "only for a music festival". Or is willing to spend that money for his sole benefit, while it could be spent for a vacation with the whole family for example.

However, for "regular" people in their 40s and more, it's quite clear that the interest to attend most metal shows is not there anymore. There are not lots of fools like me that will drive 5 or 6 hours to be able to see a band they love. Most of the time they won't even buy tickets to see the band in their own city...
 
I agree with Zod and Glen that a lack of interest is hurting PP, but lack of funds for some people definitely keep them away, despite their desire and interest to come. .


Agree..but only to an extent with the economy excuse so to speak (does not apply to international attendees). Now, don't get me wrong as I truly know individuals experience hardships all the time that prevents them from attending. However, that crutch cannot be used to the extent I'm seeing the numbers trend over the past few years and hearing the same thing.

Case in point...

We see posts frequently stating folks cannot afford to go. Jen takes the time to respond and point out ways to make it work on a shoestring budget. She literally cuts their estimated expenses in half if not more. Does that make a difference? Nope. That person wants to fly in, stay at the Artmore with only their buddy, eat out every meal, drink all day in the venue, and buy merch. Those creature comforts win out over the desire to actually attend the show if they cannot have them.

Our preferred genres of melodic prog & power are not popular with the generation that still has the hunger to experience the music live rather than from the recliner. The older folks that previously attended this festival have essentially moved on in life and lost interest in the music.

All good things eventually end and this festival is no different.
 
If metal isn't "in" how does Metallica pull off Orion Fest? or better yet how does VOLBEAT book a show here at the Greensboro Coliseum? Certain types of metal are still VERY in, it just doesn't happen to the be the metal that most of here enjoy.
Metallica does what they do based on nostalgia, no different than the reason any of the 80s bands draw. As for Volbeat, they have an odd cross over appeal. Good for them, but I don't think it's representative.

Plenty of Monster Mayhem type festivals running around the country this summer too. Again, ALL metal festivals.
The more aggressive forms have definitely garnered a strange level of popularity. The Heathen/Pagan thing is perhaps the most perplexing of all.

Our preferred genres of melodic prog & power are not popular with the generation that still has the hunger to experience the music live rather than from the recliner. The older folks that previously attended this festival have essentially moved on in life and lost interest in the music.
Unfortunately this is true.

All good things eventually end and this festival is no different.
I believe it was Gandhi who said, "If you bring ProgPower to an end, I'll kick you in your ding-ding." Hmmm... maybe not Gandhi. Perhaps it was Churchill? Yeah... that seems like something Churchill would say.
 
To say metal isn't "in" is so completely wrong; if anything it is more "in" than ever it has been. Yeah, yeah mention the 80s but honestly bands were dealing with the same issues they do today. Most of the bands discussed hear or bands people here play in would have fair no better 20-30 years.
Now we do not have video channels any longer, a assortment of metal mags on the shelves, etc like once there was but this does not say metal is not "in". There is now simply different outlets for this exposure (internet) and not only did it replace but it opened up exposure to to people wider than ever before.

Going to a mainstream retail store like FYE I see a larger metal section than I ever saw in a store through the 80s and 90s; obviously someone is buying it for it all to be the store.
I can't understand the metal is not "in" theory, if anything metal is bigger than ever no matterr if it is core, hipster or whatever, in a whole it is pretty huge.
Hell just look around at the popular culture, metal in some form is everywhere. When I can order a pizza from Domino's and they are using Miden font on their website that kind of says a little something that metal has made some impact. Everyday I go out I see tons of kids sporting some type of metal shirt, that did not happen in my teens. Man metal is simply everywhere that is just the bottom line; regardless if it is your particular flavor, hell it is never mine, but still it is everywhere.
As for Metallica doing the thing hair bands do and riding nostalgia; could not disagree more, as much as I hate that band I give credit where credit is due. Metallica as brought in generations of new fan bases like I have never seen any other band do and it was never based on what they were. I don't think Bon Jovi has been able to do that, certainly
Poison hasn't.
 
If metal isn't "in" how does Metallica pull off Orion Fest? or better yet how does VOLBEAT book a show here at the Greensboro Coliseum? Certain types of metal are still VERY in, it just doesn't happen to the be the metal that most of here enjoy.

Yeah, more specifically.

Hell just look around at the popular culture, metal in some form is everywhere. When I can order a pizza from Domino's and they are using Miden font on their website that kind of says a little something that metal has made some impact.

This kind of thing is regional. I grew up in an area where nobody listened to metal or even knew what metal bands really were. As far as metal being in our mainstream culture, there are certainly little highlights here and there, but it's hardly mainstream to go to a metal show that isn't headlined by a band like Metallica. Or Kiss. Those bands are still very mainstream, it's true. But smaller original bands? People in this area are more likely to see an original band if they play the current type of "in" music, which is hipster indie rock.
 
Yeah, more specifically.



This kind of thing is regional. I grew up in an area where nobody listened to metal or even knew what metal bands really were. As far as metal being in our mainstream culture, there are certainly little highlights here and there, but it's hardly mainstream to go to a metal show that isn't headlined by a band like Metallica. Or Kiss. Those bands are still very mainstream, it's true. But smaller original bands? People in this area are more likely to see an original band if they play the current type of "in" music, which is hipster indie rock.

popular culture extents beyond the region.
So Judas Priest in car commercials is small? Sorry I can't buy it; metal in one whatever forms it takes is actually quite big and bigger than ever before. Did you see the 90s, now then it was not really around. Were you even alive in the 80s, then it was not as big as people might have you think it was.
 
popular culture extents beyond the region.
So Judas Priest in car commercials is small? Sorry I can't buy it; metal in one whatever forms it takes is actually quite big and bigger than ever before. Did you see the 90s, now then it was not really around. Were you even alive in the 80s, then it was not as big as people might have you think it was.

Exactly....people love to think you could just turn on the radio and hear Iron Maiden and others.

Fact was that the only metal that was played was glam rock / hard rock. At that time as well if you were into the underground you didn't listen to that stuff. Sure MTV had hard rock videos in rotation but not real metal vids. Sure there was magazine on the shelves in stores but like Jeremy said...it isn't like many think it was.

I was blessed living near a large city so there were many stores with great selections of metal tapes so I was able to get stuff easily. I am sure many in smaller towns had a harder time.

I do think metal is as big as ever. I think that also could be the issue with low turnouts...people have gotten spoiled with so many shows and festivals.

I hear people say line ups stink for certain shows and festivals but 10 years ago that same person would have gone because there were fewer back then. Now it takes a killer line up and more to get people in the door at shows.
 
As much as I think folks are making good points about the economy and a loss of interest in the music, I think that Bob has touched on another very important point. I remember being in my late teens and early twenties and having a lot less choices when it came to what shows I would see. Nowadays, it seems like everybody and their mother is touring in hopes of winning back some of that cash that they no longer see from album sales (which wasn't much to begin with). Because I live on a fixed income and I make a point of saving up money throughout each year to enjoy myself at ProgPower, I tend to limit myself to seeing one show in my area each month. Whereas I may have had two shows to choose from at the most in a given month ten years ago, I now have months when I'm struggling to decide between five or six shows. In the Chicago area, the month of September alone is making me choose between Kamelot, Joe Satriani, Saxon, Steve Hackett, the Melodic Rock Fest, and Helloween. Thankfully, my band is opening for Helloween, so that takes care of that show. However, when one is a fan of all of these acts, how does one decide which show or shows to choose?

This brings me to another point. I believe that metalheads in general are more open-minded in this day and age. Of course, I don't include myself in that group (I will never get down with the growlies), but there are a lot of kids out there these days who don't distinguish between the more melodic metal and the more extreme stuff. To them, it's all metal, and it's all good. Unfortunately, these younger folks have even less money to spend on shows than I do. The over-saturation of the market is going to hurt a lot of bands, whether they're just starting out or well-established.

One reason why I think this over-saturation occurs now more than ever (besides the ever-growing presence of the internet) is because heavy metal is one of the only genres of music wherein a great percentage of its fans are musicians themselves. So many people who grow up listening to their favorite metal bands think to themselves, "Wow! What these bands are doing is awesome! I want to try that!" By contrast, you don't often see a bunch of bros listening to Jack Johnson and saying to each other, "Let's do this!" The interesting thing is that a lot of these metal fans turn out to be pretty good at making this music as well. Just look around on this forum and see how many of us are in bands, and good ones at that. Sadly, we're all fighting for the same audience, and what's even sadder is that most of that audience is only made up of us.

By no means do I feel that I know all the answers. If there's anything upon which I think we can all agree, it's that there are a bunch of factors playing into this problem.


Stay metal. Never rust.
Albert
 
Al....as much as the space time continuum will shatter with this statement....I agree 100%. I think it is just over crowded now. There is no reason why any festival is not selling out way before the show date. I think people are almost content with what they have in their hometowns now and they feel they don't need to travel. There are the ones who still travel and love doing it. But now since so many tours hit and there are more locals shows people have become content.

Like we both pointed out...even in early 2000 there was not a whole lot of bigger acts touring. So when tours did hit people made sure they were there. I think most of us know each tour that happened because it was like..."wow, I never thought I would see them". now it seems you almost forget who was in town in the past few months.

While it is great to have so many options it also has hurt it. Like I said...if it is a band I want to see...I will do my best to go and see them. I have missed shows because of my job and it stinks but I never get to mad because I know there will be another cool show in a short period of time coming up.
 
Agree..but only to an extent with the economy excuse so to speak (does not apply to international attendees). Now, don't get me wrong as I truly know individuals experience hardships all the time that prevents them from attending. However, that crutch cannot be used to the extent I'm seeing the numbers trend over the past few years and hearing the same thing.

Case in point...

We see posts frequently stating folks cannot afford to go. Jen takes the time to respond and point out ways to make it work on a shoestring budget. She literally cuts their estimated expenses in half if not more. Does that make a difference? Nope. That person wants to fly in, stay at the Artmore with only their buddy, eat out every meal, drink all day in the venue, and buy merch. Those creature comforts win out over the desire to actually attend the show if they cannot have them.

Our preferred genres of melodic prog & power are not popular with the generation that still has the hunger to experience the music live rather than from the recliner. The older folks that previously attended this festival have essentially moved on in life and lost interest in the music.

All good things eventually end and this festival is no different.

...and yet those same folks will spend 400 bucks a ticket to be on the floor to see Journey. Or Rush...

Maybe you have to charge a lot MORE? :Smokedev:
 
popular culture extents beyond the region.
So Judas Priest in car commercials is small? Sorry I can't buy it; metal in one whatever forms it takes is actually quite big and bigger than ever before. Did you see the 90s, now then it was not really around. Were you even alive in the 80s, then it was not as big as people might have you think it was.

I was born in the 80's, and my only exposure to metal was through my brother who went to see Poison and Cinderella. In the 90's, I still didn't really know that metal existed. In my neighborhood music store, there was no metal section. Our rock stations only played grunge. I didn't learn about metal until my senior year of high school, all because of Napster. Like I said, there's big regional differences. I still meet people who have no idea who Dio is and who's only knowledge of Black Sabbath extends to their knowledge that Ozzy was on a reality show.
 
I was born in the 80's, and my only exposure to metal was through my brother who went to see Poison and Cinderella. In the 90's, I still didn't really know that metal existed. In my neighborhood music store, there was no metal section. Our rock stations only played grunge. I didn't learn about metal until my senior year of high school, all because of Napster. Like I said, there's big regional differences. I still meet people who have no idea who Dio is and who's only knowledge of Black Sabbath extends to their knowledge that Ozzy was on a reality show.

Yet Black Sabbath is still well known enough to headline an arena tour and Lollapalooza last year.

The 2013 Music Midtown announcement came out a few days ago. Some band called "Imagine Dragons" is billed pretty high. Really high. Above Weezer, above Jane's Addiction, above Phoenix and Cake. And I've never heard of them in my life. Does this mean their style of music is not big because I have never heard of them? The answer is pretty obviously no.

Does the fact that you meet people who don't know of an 80's musician (yes I know Dio's career extended long past the 80's, but the overwhelming majority of his popular material 30+ years old now) mean that metal isn't "big"? Absolutely not...
 
Yet Black Sabbath is still well known enough to headline an arena tour and Lollapalooza last year.

The 2013 Music Midtown announcement came out a few days ago. Some band called "Imagine Dragons" is billed pretty high. Really high. Above Weezer, above Jane's Addiction, above Phoenix and Cake. And I've never heard of them in my life. Does this mean their style of music is not big because I have never heard of them? The answer is pretty obviously no.

Does the fact that you meet people who don't know of an 80's musician (yes I know Dio's career extended long past the 80's, but the overwhelming majority of his popular material 30+ years old now) mean that metal isn't "big"? Absolutely not...

Imagine Dragons is awesome!
 
Does the fact that you meet people who don't know of an 80's musician (yes I know Dio's career extended long past the 80's, but the overwhelming majority of his popular material 30+ years old now) mean that metal isn't "big"? Absolutely not...

Like I said, it depends on the region. I never said that metal wasn't big, just that it's not big around here enough for original metal bands to be able to play to big crowds every single night. Compared to what IS big around here, it's not a big player. If you pick up one of our newspapers, you'll see lots of ads for indie rock shows and none for metal. They didn't even do a story when the new Sabbath album was released.

But this is a non-argument. Everyone sees things differently, depending on their region. If you're lucky enough to have a thriving metal scene that welcomes newcomers, that's great.