Getting A Punchier Guitar

[Uladyne]

One weird thing you can try (it might totally end up sounding like ass) is to maybe duplicate the guitar tracks, but use a different podfarm preset on them. Something with way less gain, so the transients stay intact. Then blend this in under the main guitars and see if it helps.

 

[NSGUITAR]

Thanks everybody!


I will try every tactic that you guys have shared, and I'll post them too. =)


Thanks again.

 

[ahjteam]

My 5150 being dimed res and bass at 8 has a solid 6db peak at about the 100-150Hz area but is tight as hell. That is a apart of the huge low end punch. LP the extreme highs and at least bump the 10K area and perhaps the 5-8KHz depending if you need more bite. I have found that if you have that general curve and you have some intense palm mute spikes that are solid, removing some of the 250Hz are a few db will bring your guitar into killer bright but punch as fuck tone.

This is very true with real amps as the speakers move the air, but OP said he is using a pod, not a real amp. Atleast I have a huge problem to get a decent low end response with podfarm.

using a multiband compressor on the low end will only flatten the dynamic out which is the opposite of what you would want imo. Its a bout getting that low end transient spike, a fairly decent high pass, a mild scoop in the lower mids and a boost in the upper mids/highs.

if you would've actually read my post, I said to compress the presence (1-6khz), not the low end.

 

[ahjteam]

Okay, since just using words doesn't seem to get us anywhere, I tried this thing... It's basically a faked dual micing and is based on same thing as dual micing, phase difference. The thing is that the added track sound like ass (actually they sound a bit like they were recorded with MD421), but when blended with the original guitar track, they cancel out some nasty stuff like the fizz and bring out some good stuff like the non-fizzy upper mids. Doesn't nessecarily work on faster stuff like what was posted in OP, and it's maybe not the best example in the world as it sounds like Kotiteollisuus, but here it goes anyway.

I duplicated the guitar track and the original track stays untouched. Then added this to the duplicate track: EQ -> C3 Multiband comp -> EQ. Don't go blindly following my example with the exact numbers, use your ears what sounds good to you, so did I. (I dualtracked and did the same thing for both guitars)

Mix with just the original guitars
Mix with just the added guitars
Mix with both combined


edit: "better" after sample: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1338211/guitar_processing_test_after-02.mp3

 

[zvish]

the best trick is to simply duplicate the guitar tracks and put an expander on that duplicate track so you can expand the guitars in a paralel method. If you don't how to achieve it correctly, write it back so i'll take the time to write each step.

interesting!!!!

 

[NSGUITAR]

Okay, since just using words doesn't seem to get us anywhere, I tried this thing... It's basically a faked dual micing and is based on same thing as dual micing, phase difference. The thing is that the added track sound like ass (actually they sound a bit like they were recorded with MD421), but when blended with the original guitar track, they cancel out some nasty stuff like the fizz and bring out some good stuff like the non-fizzy upper mids. Doesn't nessecarily work on faster stuff like what was posted in OP, and it's maybe not the best example in the world as it sounds like Kotiteollisuus, but here it goes anyway.

I duplicated the guitar track and the original track stays untouched. Then added this to the duplicate track: EQ -> C3 Multiband comp -> EQ. Don't go blindly following my example with the exact numbers, use your ears what sounds good to you, so did I. (I dualtracked and did the same thing for both guitars)

Mix with just the original guitars
Mix with just the added guitars
Mix with both combined


edit: "better" after sample: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1338211/guitar_processing_test_after-02.mp3

Thanks dude! Your insight rules and I'm going to try it.

 

[B36arin]

That doesn't sound bad! I'm not the biggest expert on here, but I'd definitely try to play a bit with the signal before it goes through the ampsim, maybe put a compressor there with an attack that will let the transients through but compress the rest. Just be careful to set your make up gain/ampsim input level so that the amp still sounds good and so that it doesn't sound as if your volume pot is at 50%

 

[NSGUITAR]

Yes! I think I might have found the sweet spot!



I did several things:

-I realized the input level of both guitars and bass were cranked all of the way up, and it almost sounded like it was pushing the amp too hard, and not sounding precise enough. So I turned all input down to about 12 o clock.

-The bass tone in the original post was half-assed. I completely changed everything about the bass, and it sounds fucking siiiick now. It really helped to fill out the mix.

-I added a multi band compressor to the guitar chains and compressed about 1k, pretty fierce now.

CHECK IT!:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4985090/NickMetulz3.mp3

 

[ahjteam]

yeah, thats more like it!

 

[NSGUITAR]

yeah, thats more like it!

Fucking love this forum!
notworthynotworthy

 

[Russtopher]

BIG difference!

What did you do to the bass - add more grit? Different sim? EQ? Change of socks?

 

[NSGUITAR]

BIG difference!

What did you do to the bass - add more grit? Different sim? EQ? Change of socks?

Duplicated the bass track.

Track one I added a HUGE highpass filter to it, and added some highmids/crunch.

Track two, I just boosted the low frequencies really. I like it better than using amp sims. A lot more actually.

Of course I used a compressor with 4:1 ration too.

 

[cloy26]

sounds great. Huge improvement.

 

[rispsira]

I think as mentioned earlier the kick drum is all that's holding your sound back from being a monster. If you get more meat on it and less click it will make the whole track punch, your guitars sound good as they are. Excellent playing and structure also.

Great work man!

i am no sound engineer, but i too have to say that as Fear above states; the click is great for that style but a bit less of the highs and youre good to go!

nice and tight well done!

 

[TheWinterSnow]

if you would've actually read my post, I said to compress the presence (1-6khz), not the low end.

I know what you meant, I was stating that because compressing just the low end seems to be the common practice for some guitarists.

As for POD I am not sure how it works but for the life of me I cannot get a heavy punchy aggressive sound from an ampsim without it being really wooly and muddy, then when I eq out the low mids, it sounds thin.


Back to OP: Lack of punch is totally coming from the overall mid scooped mix especially the drums which contains way to much 12kHz+ and not enough high mids.

 

[AerialThesis]

Could you explain that method please? Sounds interesting

You start by duplicating a certain track that needs more bounce or punch.

You then put an expander on both tracks with a neutral setting on the first track so the plugin only stands as a compensation delay so both tracks don't go out of phase.

Then on your second track you adjust the expander's settings so you accentuate the peaks in an almost apparent way.

(ex: Attack around 220 us to a couple of ms, Hold around 80 ms to 130 ms, Release between 700 ms to 1.5 seconds, Ratio between 1.01 to 1.5, Range between 4 to 16 dBs and the Threshold at 0 dB so it's constantly working on the dynamics.)

Then you can mix both tracks together and your able to add dynamics in a paralel method by simply raising the duplicated track's fader.

You can sometimes add a compressor on each track as one is at a neutral position so it can still work as a compensation delay and the other one will work on compressing what you previously accentuated with the expander.

You then need less compression to get the punchy sound you wanted and if your compression settings are well set, the result will be overly punchy for that duplicated track.

(Ex: Attack around 100 ms so the peaks wont get compressed, Ratio being less than 2.5 sometimes more around 1.8, Release to taste and a treshold that always makes the compressor work around 2 to 4 db's of compression)

You can finally mix that overly punchy duplicated track with the original and you'll get a nice control on how much fat and punchy you want your track to sound while still being able to automate that quantity of punch troughout the song to make those quieter bits sound untouched and those louder bits sound more controlled but still fat and punchy.

You can also seperate expansion and compression on different tracks too if you want by having 3 identical track working together with one having both plugins at a neutral position and the others having one of both plugins at a neutral position. You can than control the volume between the original signal, the compressed signal and the expanded signal.

Good luck! Have fun and feel free to try this in every situation where you need to work the dynamics of an instrument or a whole song without compromising (processing) the original signal.

 

[colynomial]

Second mix sounds much better man- it acutally sounds great.

Just wanted to add two things to what's already been mentioned about punch since I tend to obsess about this kind of thing myself, haha.

First of all, in my experience the PodFarm cabinet impulses just seem really sterile and flat. The only way I've ever seemed to get a heavy tone out of it PodFarm is undergaining slightly and quad tracking. That said, certainly a lot of people on this forum get great Pod tone and your tone is pretty mean sounding but I've never had much luck with getting the low-mid punchy tightness from PodFarm.

Second, I think the combination of kick and bass has a lot more to do with the punchiness of a mix than guitars. A lot of the mixes I find most appealing in terms of punch have kick samples which actually move my subwoofer (albeit in a controlled fashion). You may want to reconsider your kick sample selection or perhaps add a little more sub-lows to the present sample. As you've mentioned, re-mixing the bass guitar helped and has a lot to do with our perceived perception of the guitar tone.

Great work though man and a sick tune.

 

[AerialThesis]

I suggest listening to the album "Minus The Herd" by Ion Dissonance for guitar tracks that actually punch in corelation to the kick's punch as if they were forming one clear punch.

 

[NSGUITAR]

Hey dudes!


I've finished the skeleton of the song thus far.


There are a few parts that I need to add/subtract certain things, especially the ending.. I just copied and pasted a bunch for the time being, until I'm ready to record it for reaaaalll. There are also parts where I will be playing different chords as well.

But I completely eq'd the kick differently. Took away some highs, and added lower frequencies to it.

Check it:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4985090/NickMetulz4.mp3

 

[Ermz]

You might find that one of the problems is an overly scooped guitar tone. Sure PODFarm usually isn't the best starting point for tone, but if you retain some more mids and allow the mix to sound fuller you may get some additional punch. POD guitars naturally tend to sound somewhat flat and 2 dimensional, so it's hard to squeeze punch out of them. I would suggest trying a bit of slow attack, fast release compression, to see if that initial grab and duck does something for you. Hard knee SSL style comps should work for this. If it's too out of what after this, hit it with a limiter on the back end.

A large part of the problem is spectral though, so don't look solely at dynamics. Make sure the tone, at its source, is sounding nice and full.