Half Stack vs Full

[sirscratch01]

I know while tracking guitars you want to get those speakers moving a decent amount and that can be controlled with the volume knob. But in a live setting without mics, you sometimes hve to push the amp well beyond recording volume so i was just curious if using two 4x12's (lets say two mesa OS cabs one running out of each 4ohm jack of a dual rectifier) actually spreads the work between the two cabs giving you the same volume or does it crank each cab the way one would be cranked basically giving you twice the volume.

Just wondering as i had a chance to use this rig at a show last night (borrowed a friends mesa cab to add to mine) and it sounded amazing. I wanted to know if that extra clarity came from the speakers not trying to destroy themselves to recreate the sound, or just from having an extra 4x12 right in my face haha. Either way im totally gassing for a second mesa cab now.




EDIT: Sorry, just realized this should probably have gone in the equipment section.

 

[egan.]

I've never been on a stage that required more than one 4x12 per guitarist. Often times when you see more than that they aren't even all plugged in. I think what you are describing has more to do with getting the rig on ear level (which I personally hate for guitar and love for bass) than it does with volume or power distribution.
The other thing is often times it makes sense to run guitar rigs quieter live than you would for recording. In small club situations all you are doing is limiting the FOH guys ability to bring you up in the mains-- which will carry low end much better into the house than the guitar cab will.

 

[PostMortem1666]

The other thing is often times it makes sense to run guitar rigs quieter live than you would for recording. In small club situations all you are doing is limiting the FOH guys ability to bring you up in the mains-- which will carry low end much better into the house than the guitar cab will.

Exactly. I have been trying to tell my band's other guitarist this for ages but he won't listen. He always has his amp loud as hell.

 

[Executioner213]

I use a full stack, but mostly because I use a Mesa 2:90 and can have both cabs at separate volumes. I can set the bottom one to whatever is needed for the soundman to be happy, and I set the top just to supplement what I need to hear myself...which is usually really not a whole lot. I usually have my bottom cab turned up to 3.5-4, while I have my top at 2 (assuming from 0 to 10, and straight up is 5). I don't like having 1 volume for both cabs in that its easy to get carried away...

 

[Calippo Tecks]

I play both with a full stack and sometimes with one speaker cab.
I can tell you it's definately not twice as much volume, twice as much speakers doesn't mean twice the volume. The only thing that makes it better is that the top cabinet is more right into your face(ears). On the other hand playing with one cab (use the slanted) is 80% as good as 2 cabs imo. You can also play in stereo on that cab which mostly sounds better. Yesterday for example I played with my mesa roadster and one marshall 1960a cab using two different speaker cables and it really sounded badass, even better then when I am using two cabs. The best thing you can do is just try it out yourself, just use one cab on stage and u'll see that you don't need two. I mostly use a full stack because that simply looks much cooler too.

 

[sirscratch01]

One head and one cab with two speaker cables? I was under the impression that that can blow the output tranny, I actually know someone who had that happen to his head after he let someone set up his rig for him. The guys saw two outs on the head and two ins on the cab and said "fuck it"....and then so did the amp. Either way i know one is enough I've been using one mesa cab for years with no problem (and I agree with the keeping it low for the FOH guys thing) but i was just wondering how the power distrobution worked out. Plus two cabs does look waay cooler.

 

[ahjteam]

I am usually mixing five kinds of bands:

A) A single guitarist that plays into two guitar amps
B) Two guitarist plays to two full stacks
C) Two guitarists plays to half stacks/combos
D) A single guitarist plays into a half stack
E) A single guitarist plays to a pod/similiar, no stacks

and I have to say that the option D is usually the loudest option from the stage, but the difference is very minimal

 

[xyontheallpowerful]

I know this thread is old but I came across it whilst looking for something else...

It doesn't matter if you are using 1 4x12 or 2 of them the volume always stays the same; of course depending on the amps you are using (taking into account stereo rack amps).

However, when using 1 4x12 all the power is sent to that cab, when using 2 cabs the power is split between them. Again, this only works if you're using a MONO amplifier to power them.

I found something that should give everyone a laugh... I found on another thread the reason for having a bottom cab is: "The bass comes out the bottom cab and the treble out of the top"... unless they're using a crossover between the preamp & power amps it's not the case. Just sit in front of the bottom one and get blasted to hell the same as you would the top cab. The only difference being more bass if there is more wood in the cab (eg. Marshall 1960B) or different speakers/EQ applied.

I wish I knew where I found that thread. It was funny.

Anyway, when I was playing live with band (haven't played live in a bout 3 months! ) no matter how much I turned up my 50watt stack I was never much louder than the drummer! So the full stack always got mic'd up... we would mic up everything including the drums & DI the bass from his 350w Amp... being a Sound Engineer I was always obsessed with getting a decent balance. Most of the time the bass & drums were very low in the FOH mix because they were bloody loud on stage.

Why do I use a full stack? 1) I always dreamed of having one so I bought one (over many years)... 2) It looks cool! It's the ultimate icon of any form of Rock.
Did I always plug in both cabs? Yes. Why? because I couldn't hear myself at the best of times with just the 1/2!

 

[Paulie!]

I'm thinking a main reason people think the bass is coming out of only the bottom cab is because a lot of the bass vibrations radiate from it into the floor, that and I feel like bass freq. tend to stay near the ground...

And the main reason for the clarity from a full stack would be the second cab at ear level.. and you can play 1 head w/ two outs through 1 cab, assuming the cab is set up for stereo (1 plug per 2 speakers) I ran my laney through a Behri stereo cab once, it actually sounded really good.. I miss my laney

Sorry, I know this is old but I had to throw 2 cents on here since it's been a while since I posted anything relavent...

-P

 

[Trevoire520]

Did I always plug in both cabs? Yes. Why? because I couldn't hear myself at the best of times with just the 1/2!

If you can't hear yourself using one 4x12 cab then there is something seriously wrong with either your equipment or the way you set it up. I use a marshall 2x12 for most gigs and have never had a problem hearing myself onstage.

 

[TravisW]

Wow. Most of the time, I've wound up running only half of my speaker cab.

 

[Virgil.]

If you can't hear yourself using one 4x12 cab then there is something seriously wrong with either your equipment or the way you set it up. I use a marshall 2x12 for most gigs and have never had a problem hearing myself onstage.

Maybe he's scooping out all of the mids like a lot of guitarists tend to do, he may be getting lost in the mix?

 

[amarshism]

2 quads looks cooler and can also aid with stage projection when playing larger venues. I've always run one quad at club size venues, but I've been on a few tours using two side by side with a 57 on one and a condenser on the other.

 

[JeffTD]

After seeing Jimmy Eat World play a 600-1000 person venue recently with each guitarist running a 2x12, I'm almost tempted to down-size my rig, or at least get a 2x12 cabinet. They sounded insanely good and weren't crushingly loud. Then again, that genre tends to lend itself to smaller sized amps and lower volumes, period.

 

[amarshism]

I've seen photos of their live rig which had multiple amps (2x12s, quads) mic'd up pointed backwards from the stage. When you're on in ear monitors, stage volume is really only there for the front row. But I can totally see a 2x12 being more than adequate for a venue that size.

 

[amarshism]

And how amazing are Jimmy eat world live!

 

[Harry Hughes]

IIRC, wasn't John Petrucci rocking a 2x12 for Chaos in Motion tour?
When I saw them live on the tour in 2008, heaps of 4x12s on stage that had to be dummy cabs, and remember seeing in the DVD that there was a 2x12 mic'd underneath a blanket. No issues hearing him, although the acoustics of the venue suck dick.
If you're not recording the gig, I don't think it really matters whether you run a hardware amp modeler device to FOH or use a 2x12.
Of course, if you're an international band and you're provided with 4x12s for your backline, or you're recording, sure, a 4x12 is the way to go, but otherwise it makes sense to reduce stage volume if possible.

Meshuggah was just totally crushing when I saw them earlier this year (relatively small venue). The sound was way tighter than the other two bands who were supporting them (Whitechapel, and some other band, called Today Dies, or some shit, I dunno, regardless of their name they were generic and boring as fuck) and I'm certain it was partly due to them going straight to FOH with the Axe FXs and Bass POD XT Pro.
Definitely blew out of the water the misconception that PODs can't cut through the mix, cos goddamn, Dick Lovgren was sure as fuck getting heard that night.

 

[JeffTD]

I've seen photos of their live rig which had multiple amps (2x12s, quads) mic'd up pointed backwards from the stage. When you're on in ear monitors, stage volume is really only there for the front row. But I can totally see a 2x12 being more than adequate for a venue that size.

And how amazing are Jimmy eat world live!

Yeah, I guess they just ran smaller stuff this time because of the venue size, as it was a stop between LA and San Francisco dates. Jim ran a VC30 2x12 combo, and Tim had what looked like an Orange combo powering an Orange 2x12 cab, but the combo was facing backwards.

So what you're saying though is that they aimed the cabinets backwards? My other guitarist works at a local venue we play at and said a band came through doing the same thing and that it sounded awesome; no piercing highs and everything was pretty even, but I figured it would sound muddy and awkward with a lack of top end or something? Might have to try it!

Actually, thinking back, JEW wasn't even running in-ears at that show, which I thought was really impressive. They were absolutely astounding live - tons of energy and WAY heavier than I was expecting being familiar with the albums. Massive sounding as a band and they all are really tight at what they do.

 

[amarshism]

Yeh I'll try find the photos. They had vox 2x12s facing the crowd, but it was a photo from behind and up on like the lighting rig or something. Behind their rigs/riser was like an old 800iirc powering a quad, some vox and orang combos and I recall seeing an orange 2x12 with a head. I'll try find the photo, I think I found it here. And yeh, a devastatingly tight live band. Saw them on the soundwave festival this year and they were phenomenal, even in a big arena. Would def prefer to see them in a 300-750 sized club though.

 

[JeffTD]

^^that's really really sick and makes so much sense. If I were in a metal or hardcore band I'd run the 4x12 no matter what, I think, but with my band I think we'd actually benefit from the 2x12's.