Half Stack vs Full

[ahjteam]

After seeing Jimmy Eat World play a 600-1000 person venue recently with each guitarist running a 2x12, I'm almost tempted to down-size my rig, or at least get a 2x12 cabinet. They sounded insanely good and weren't crushingly loud. Then again, that genre tends to lend itself to smaller sized amps and lower volumes, period.

^^that's really really sick and makes so much sense. If I were in a metal or hardcore band I'd run the 4x12 no matter what, I think, but with my band I think we'd actually benefit from the 2x12's.

I remember how I tried to convince you on AIM about an year ago that 2x12" facing inside is sufficient for live monitoring, but you insisted that 4x12" facing the audience sounds better But yeah, in my opinion especially if you aim the 2x12"s inside instead towards the audience, it can help a lot on the FOH sound as you don't get so much stage bleed and you don't need to blast them so loud in the monitors that way either

 

[JeffTD]

We never chatted on AIM until the GTC3? I don't remember that at all, but I would prefer a 4x12 for sure in a metal setting, which I'm sure is what we were discussing.

 

[Trevoire520]

Maybe he's scooping out all of the mids like a lot of guitarists tend to do, he may be getting lost in the mix?

That's what I was thinking too tbh. Raise your mids and be heard!

 

[greyskull]

yep J.E.W are incredible live!
They are one of many reasons i want an AC30. Hope my Marshall G.A.S holds on long enough. or i might just get both!
find pics of live rig!

 

[HeadCrusher]

Unfortunetally JEW don't stop by anywhere near me on their current tour but I've seen them a couple of times an Toms amp (some Orange + 4x12) was aiming towards the back of the stage. Jims AC30 (pushed by some kind of green Tubescreamer - don't know the exact modell) was positioned slightly sideways pointing at him but I guess it's not so loud as the Orange anyway. They were using in-ears at the time.

 

[Omega_Void]

...they aimed the cabinets backwards... I figured it would sound muddy and awkward with a lack of top end or something?

Technically:
Where the wavelength is smaller than the diameter of the cone the sound has a beaming effect and is much stronger directly in front. Below this frequency the sound propagates in all directions more or less equally (speaker is operating "pistonically").

For a 12" speaker that's about 1125Hz.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-wavelength.htm

Since the beam is facing away from the crowd the level of highs would be more uniform from different positions in the audience. You'd have to dial in more highs than if the cab were facing you is all.

 

[amarshism]

They face them backward to get better control at front of house. The 2x12s are for stage vibe I imagine and people in the front row. The backward facing cabs are mic'd up.

 

[egan.]

Aiming the cabinets backwards sounds bad but it's quieter on stage and in the house which is the point. This is a really popular method for guys using ears and also allows the FOH guy to have nearly complete control of the guitar sound in the house (which is ideal if the PA is passable). It's basically the poor mans version of the iso cabs that many tours use these days.

 

[AHChris]

I think halfstacks or even 2x12s with a head look waaay cooler than a fullstack... And if you can´t hear yourself without a fullstack, your doing it wrong!

 

[ahjteam]

We never chatted on AIM until the GTC3? I don't remember that at all, but I would prefer a 4x12 for sure in a metal setting, which I'm sure is what we were discussing.

I don't have the log files as they were destroyed with my pc's hard drive crash, but I found the picture I drew that day, the date was April 28th. Oh well, 7 months is close enough to be "about an year"

 

[if6was9]

If you can't get hear yourself with a 4X12, you're definately doing something wrong with your tone. I've used a 2X12 live for years and it's never been an issue, hell my master volume is rarely above 3 on my jcm 800, which is a 50 watter, never goes above 2 on my brother's Laney gh50L.

I know guys in a death metal band who have the best gear- mode four cabs, peavey jsx+mesa dual rec. Noise gates and boosts out front and they've got such a hard time cutting through when they play cause they just use WAYY too much gain and scoop the mids. I've done sound for them loads of times in a couple of different venues and it's always the same cause of the way they set up their tone. Sounds evil when they play on their own but it doesn't lend itself to a band setting at all. I think the TS has the same problem

 

[xyontheallpowerful]

If you can't hear yourself using one 4x12 cab then there is something seriously wrong with either your equipment or the way you set it up. I use a marshall 2x12 for most gigs and have never had a problem hearing myself onstage.

There's nothing wrong with any of the gear. I've had it checked out just to be on the safe side.

Maybe he's scooping out all of the mids like a lot of guitarists tend to do, he may be getting lost in the mix?

I'm not like most guitarists and my mids are set around 1/2 way to around 2 o'clock. I don't like the whole scooped sound too much. It has it's uses.

There was no problem with my rig in the studio (no different to how it was used live previously and after) and there was nothing added to my signal except reverb & delay as I always record 100% dry. I know things change when it comes to the venue and the way it sounds.

I can almost promise you it was down to the drummer. He really loved over-tightened, over-tuned drums. His favourite being a Piccolo snare which completely ripped your head off when hit (it also sounded like someone hitting a tin can). He had a massive rack-mount kit with drums that just about spanned most of the frequency rang of my guitar. Combine the frequency range with the sheer natural volume of the kit (plus him getting into the track and giving it a real beating) and you can get an idea. Add on top that between sound check and the gig starting he'd be hovering around the desk. I even caught him on film once turning himself up when everything was nicely balanced.

Unlike most guitarists I don't want to be high in the mix as I love to hear the whole band clearly. The only exception is when it comes to solo's and I want it to cut through nicely but not be over-the-top. I never had any problems cutting through during rehearsals.

That's what I was thinking too tbh. Raise your mids and be heard!

See above.

I think halfstacks or even 2x12s with a head look waaay cooler than a fullstack... And if you can´t hear yourself without a fullstack, your doing it wrong!

Again see above. I would like to get a 2x12 for portability but I would never trade the stack for it.

 

[greyskull]

I know this thread is old but I came across it whilst looking for something else...

It doesn't matter if you are using 1 4x12 or 2 of them the volume always stays the same; of course depending on the amps you are using (taking into account stereo rack amps).

However, when using 1 4x12 all the power is sent to that cab, when using 2 cabs the power is split between them. Again, this only works if you're using a MONO amplifier to power them.

I found something that should give everyone a laugh... I found on another thread the reason for having a bottom cab is: "The bass comes out the bottom cab and the treble out of the top"... unless they're using a crossover between the preamp & power amps it's not the case. Just sit in front of the bottom one and get blasted to hell the same as you would the top cab. The only difference being more bass if there is more wood in the cab (eg. Marshall 1960B) or different speakers/EQ applied.

I wish I knew where I found that thread. It was funny.

Anyway, when I was playing live with band (haven't played live in a bout 3 months! ) no matter how much I turned up my 50watt stack I was never much louder than the drummer! So the full stack always got mic'd up... we would mic up everything including the drums & DI the bass from his 350w Amp... being a Sound Engineer I was always obsessed with getting a decent balance. Most of the time the bass & drums were very low in the FOH mix because they were bloody loud on stage.

Why do I use a full stack? 1) I always dreamed of having one so I bought one (over many years)... 2) It looks cool! It's the ultimate icon of any form of Rock.
Did I always plug in both cabs? Yes. Why? because I couldn't hear myself at the best of times with just the 1/2!

ahh ... seen the photo..
A decent head would help matters immensely.. which the AVT is errrrr not

 

[xyontheallpowerful]

ahh ... seen the photo..
A decent head would help matters immensely.. which the AVT is errrrr not

I agree but I can't complain at the sound that head produces, I've often had people coming up to me asking me how I get the sound I get and when they see it's just a little AVT they're shocked.

It's a case of a lack of funds to get the new head. Any recommendations? I managed to get a pretty good deal on the cabs and happened to have just enough money to get them at the time. I already had the AVT head with matching cab which is why I'm using it atm.

I've played through various Fender amps, Various Marshalls and I would love to know which Mesa I played through when purchasing a Strat & 7 String Ibanez...

Anybody tried the Egnator Tourmaster? I know this is a "Metal Forum" I play anything from Blues-Metal including some Jazz, occasionally delve into the classical realm and various other things so I need the amp to be as versatile as possible with regards to suggestions.

For clean work I love the Fender Twin Reverb, I can't make my mind up on which of the Marshalls for a rhythm/lead and I would also like a Mesa just to spice things up a little. I have read elsewhere on the net that the Tourmaster is capable of all these tones? Some of the examples on the net also prove this.

 

[PaulSOCW]

I know guys in a death metal band who have the best gear- mode four cabs, peavey jsx+mesa dual rec. Noise gates and boosts out front and they've got such a hard time cutting through when they play cause they just use WAYY too much gain and scoop the mids. I've done sound for them loads of times in a couple of different venues and it's always the same cause of the way they set up their tone. Sounds evil when they play on their own but it doesn't lend itself to a band setting at all. I think the TS has the same problem

I did a gig the other week and as we were using the other bands cabs our guitarist had to run his peavey xxx thru a mode 4 cab.
Ive never head that XXX sound so bad.
No amount of tweaking the eq seemed to help either.