Help! 6505+ 112 odd clipping-ish distortion on recordings?

[cboysen]

Hi - I've been struggling with this problem for months, maybe even years now. I bought a 6505+ 112 which I'm very satisfied with, except for one thing - The amp is making some odd clipping-ish distortion 'on top' of the regular distorted sound. I've checked every parameter digitally, and there is no clipping.

I just swapped out all the tubes to

Winged =C= 6L6GC
v1 Tung-Sol ECC83 ressiue v1
v2,3,4 JJ ECC803s
v5 Sovtek 12ax7 LPS

Which massively improved the sound, but the odd clipping remained the same, if not even more pronounced, since my amp has become much more detailed and full sounding after the retube.

I've included a clip of some random power chords, which seems to be the most affected by this problem. You can clearly hear how the clipping remains rather strong, even though the chords ring out.



and just to avoid misunderstandings - my rig is:
EMG81(18v) - TS808 - Decimator G-string - 6505+ 112 - koch loadbox - Scarlett 2i2 Line in - LePou cab2 - Catharsis s-preshigh

I've tried to make the chain simple - only doing EMG81 - 6505+ 112 preamp (FX send) - Scarlett 2i2 line in - LePou - Catharsis s-preshigh.
But unfortunately this changes nothing. Also tried to disable the batteries from the active pickups, but that didn't do anything either.
My next bet is a new audio interface or output transformer- But that's a big operation..

Could someone please help me with this - I'm quite desperate to figure out what the problem is.

Kind regards
Christian

EDIT: Just tried to put the TS808 between my guitar and the audio interface, like a boosted clean signal - and whoa!! .. Same stuff happens.. so it IS a digital clipping somewhere inside that cheapo focusrite interface..
I bought it at thomann.de - Could I complain about such 'faultiness'?

 

[TheWinterSnow]

That is amp distortion, plain and simple. You want less of it, lower the high knob and pull some 4-6KHz out in post processing.

Just the nature of the (EMG -> OD -> 5150/6505 -> V30 -> SM57) beast.

You are better off to make judgement on the tone AFTER you have drums, bass and dual/quad tracked guitars in a mix.

 

[cboysen]

That is amp distortion, plain and simple. You want less of it, lower the high knob and pull some 4-6KHz out in post processing.

Just the nature of the (EMG -> OD -> 5150/6505 -> V30 -> SM57) beast.

You are better off to make judgement on the tone AFTER you have drums, bass and dual/quad tracked guitars in a mix.

Not to be disrespectful, but I really have a hard time believing that ... I've heard plently of 6505+ amps recorded, single-tracked, without drum/bass/vocal etc.. and I've not heard similar problem. This stuff remains the same even if i change pickup. It also remains the same if all I do is use a TS808 to the interface..

Kind regards

 

[Sloan]

do a clip without the 'suspected' 808. I think i'm hearing what your talking about. a really high fizz type of thing.

 

[AntonioPetrole]

No idea why but the Revalver version of the 6505 does the Same exact thing and it was boggling my mind, unfortunately I couldn't find an answer online. I'm interested as to what this could be

 

[cboysen]

No idea why but the Revalver version of the 6505 does the Same exact thing and it was boggling my mind, unfortunately I couldn't find an answer online. I'm interested as to what this could be

I tried to hook up the amp to my 1x12 cab that it came with.. i've converted the amp to a head for convience.. so long time since i used that.. but the distortion remains.. maybe not as prominent, but it's there..

I'll try to make a recording of the TS808.. it could be something like a diode clipping of sorts?.. and if so it's the inheret gain-structure of the amp - and I might be looking into the EVH 5150 mini .. but that's quite a move.. just for that..

And sorry WinterSnow... I guess you're right, but I tried to double and quad-track it, and it didnt really seem to help on the situation..

Christian

 

[cboysen]

do a clip without the 'suspected' 808. I think i'm hearing what your talking about. a really high fizz type of thing.

Yeah exactly - around the 4-7khz orso.. (like WinterSnow said .. )

The odd thing is, when I hear recordings of the 6505+ or other High.gain amps .. like Ola Englunds amp tests.. I hear no such High-fizz distortion..

 

[Behind]

Your amp is not the problem. Try another guitar and see what happens.

If you do not have more guitars, try connecting the one you have to the focursrite and record the same power chords. Use an amp modeller this time.

Is the problem still there?

 

[cboysen]

Your amp is not the problem. Try another guitar and see what happens.

If you do not have more guitars, try connecting the one you have to the focursrite and record the same power chords. Use an amp modeller this time.

Is the problem still there?

Hmm .. I can try that, but doubt my guitar is the problem.. If so you'd have seen a lot more threads about the EMG81s causing this.. but either way.. I'm pretty clueless..

Has anyone heard/had similar problems?

 

[Behind]

I have no doubts about it. It sounds just like string oscillation. No amp issues here.

It could be caused because your guitar needs a set up. That happens too if the string gauge needs to be increased in order to match your tuning.

 

[cboysen]

I have no doubts about it. It sounds just like string oscillation. No amp issues here.

It could be caused because your guitar needs a set up. That happens too if the string gauge needs to be increased in order to match your tuning.

Sorry for being thick-headed, but I barely made it through physics class, only passing because I had a 'flair' for electronics.. But what's string oscilation? - Standing waves or something?

My guitar should be setup alright? - The tuning is D standard and using .11 gauge

 

[Behind]

This is string oscillation:



It's basically the movement of the string when it's played. Each guitar resonates in a different way and the strings vibrate depending on things like wood, intonation, string gauge, tuning... Oscillation is not a problem by itself. The problem comes when it oscillates/vibrates incorrectly due to some problem with the guitar. I'm not an expert on this topic and maybe someone could explain it in a more detailed way. I just know this by the experience I have with my own guitars and I'm absolutely sure that this "clipping" thing you mention comes from the guitar.

 

[cboysen]

This is string oscillation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INqfM1kdfUc

It's basically the movement of the string when it's played. Each guitar resonates in a different way and the strings vibrate depending on things like wood, intonation, string gauge, tuning... Oscillation is not a problem by itself. The problem comes when it oscillates/vibrates incorrectly due to some problem with the guitar. I'm not an expert on this topic and maybe someone could explain it in a more detailed way. I just know this by the experience I have with my own guitars and I'm absolutely sure that this "clipping" thing you mention comes from the guitar.

Interesting.. so it's has nothing to do with the amount of gain, but actually how the rectificaton enhances certain resonances and causing the oh-so-beautiful clean guitar tone to become a nightmare of weird wavelengths, when you put an amp or a guitar pedal in front?

In any case - I have thought of changing the pickups to some bare knuckle pickups, but that wouldn't help the problem would it?

The guitar is a JH-600 ESP LTD with Kahler Trem

 

[Behind]

Interesting.. so it's has nothing to do with the amount of gain, but actually how the rectificaton enhances certain resonances and causing the oh-so-beautiful clean guitar tone to become a nightmare of weird wavelengths, when you put an amp or a guitar pedal in front?

That could be the reason

In any case - I have thought of changing the pickups to some bare knuckle pickups, but that wouldn't help the problem would it?

Passive pickups tend to cause intonation problems when placed too close to the strings, so it could even worse your problem. In any case, a good setup shouldn't cause any problem at all. There's almost no possibility that EMG are causing this, as they have weak magnets that don't modifies string vibration.

 

[cboysen]

That could be the reason



Passive pickups tend to cause intonation problems when placed too close to the strings, so it could even worse your problem. In any case, a good setup shouldn't cause any problem at all. There's almost no possibility that EMG are causing this, as they have weak magnets that don't modifies string vibration.

Hmm... so then what could it be .. my guitar tech seems to be quite the pro guy.. but it's quite some time since I had the guitar in for service.. but it just seems really odd.. Can't really get my head around it ..

 

[cboysen]

So - I tried to make some recordings with my guitar directly into the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, and some with a TS808 in front with various settings.

This is an experiment to see if whether or not the high-fizz clipping-ish distortion will occur without the 6505+ 112 (thus pointing out the guitar to be the source of the problem) - See the description on the sound cloud page for setup details

So what you should be looking for is a 'trend' in the guitar tone / gain-structure - If it IS the guitar, there should be an inherent clipping-distortion (freq.peak at 4-7khz) on all the distorted tracks, and boosted accordingly when the gain is turned up, both on the TS808 and Virtually.

Clean Guitar



TS808 Zero Gain


TS808 9 o'clock Gain


TS808 12 o'clock Gain


TS808 3 o'clock Gain


TS808 Max Gain





Guitar Rig s-preshigh


Guitar Rig Sm57 Recto


LePou LE456 s-preshigh


8505 s-preshigh


Revalver 6505 s-preshigh


TS808 Boosted Revalver 6505 s-preshigh



Kind regards
Christian

EDIT: If you're willing, try to compare the link from my first post with some of the high-gain links in here - The 'trend' should become more 'obvious'.

 

[Maybelater]

I would try a different guitar or re amping it with known good stems. JMO

 

[cboysen]

I would try a different guitar or re amping it with known good stems. JMO

Splendid idea!! - Where do I find such DI's?

I don't have a reamp box, but I can always try to do it virtually anyhow..

EDIT: Found a Rose of Sharyn DI from here.. I'll try that asap..

 

[TheWinterSnow]

Not to be disrespectful, but I really have a hard time believing that ... I've heard plently of 6505+ amps recorded, single-tracked, without drum/bass/vocal etc.. and I've not heard similar problem. This stuff remains the same even if i change pickup. It also remains the same if all I do is use a TS808 to the interface..

Kind regards

You are falling into a trap that I did/still sort of do, over-analyze and hear things in your mixes that you don't in others but is still there. I listened to some pro mixes and my own and its there. Its your high-mid presence, your best options are to dial your amp differently, use different impulses etc. I find that overly harsh upper mids tend to be more exaggerated with impulses than mixing a real cab and the s-preshigh naturally has a lot of that nastiness to begin with (which can be a good or bad thing). Also, it gets worse the more the highs are removed, the Line 6 Amps especially the Spider valve actually sounds like your clips in the room with a cab.

I said it in another post, bring your highs down and if you need more brightness, turn up your presence on the amp. The 6505 series amps get pretty nasty with higher high settings and calm down and get this nasally plus metallic sound when turned down, too much and you loose all the frequencies that allow the guitar to cut through.

You don't want to get rid of it, if it is too much, tame it with post eq. This a frequency area that has been talked about a lot around here as being a nightmare to get right and well as you have experienced, it is a nightmare.

I tried to hook up the amp to my 1x12 cab that it came with.. i've converted the amp to a head for convience.. so long time since i used that.. but the distortion remains.. maybe not as prominent, but it's there..

Its an inherent operation of a high gain amp, incorrect AE techniques can unexpectedly make it worse. With all good forms of art, it just takes time and practice.

Hmm .. I can try that, but doubt my guitar is the problem.. If so you'd have seen a lot more threads about the EMG81s causing this.. but either way.. I'm pretty clueless..

EMGs, especially the 81 is known for making the high mids more abrasive, and that is why fanboys use them, and its the same reason you use an OD pedal in front of an amp. People who don't care for that type of sound play passives, so it comes down to a YMMV scenario. Still EMGs will not cause that kind of abrasiveness...bad amp dialing, amp micing/wrong impulses are the huge culprit of this. Under the right conditions EMGs are just edgy.

 

[cboysen]

I tried the Rose of Sharyn DIs.. and god do they rock.. I don't understand how JeffTD gets such a punchy DI sound..

But to my surprise, the distortion is still there even on his tracks.. not as much, but still there.. so I bet you're right, unfortunately(!).

Would it make any sense putting an active DI box between the line out signal of the koch Loadbox 2 and the scarlett 2i2 - Using the mic pres instead of the line-level signal? I know the Koch is line level, but would the impedance match up better with the active-DI way? Or is it all because he got a fancy RME FF800 audio interface?

I guess I just have to play around with the EQ for a bit.. the problem is, I need to knock up that pres. knob all the way, otherwise my tone will sound dull .. or like 'blanket'-ed.. the annoying part is that it all depends on the psychological sound level.. at normal volume, the amp is dull with a pres. around 5-6, but at brain-frying level its alright - So i Guess I have to go with the max'ed out way?

I hope that the drum crashes will disguise the fizz a bit though, or rather 'make up' for it, when I EQ it down