Help Needed 100% Natural Drums - No Samples

[guitarguru777]

So this mix is my first attempt at really getting something thing going without samples and trying to tweak the drums to sound as good as possible. With my current setup.

Nothing is really edited yet and there are a few sloppy spots but you get the idea. I dig the mix other then the drums they are just really lacking SOMETHING and I am not sure what it is.

Here are the full details:
Drums: Tama Star Classic Birch
Heads: Evans G2 Clear
Snare: Pearl Jordison Jordison
Cymbals: Sabian 14, 16, 18, Dark Crash's
China: Ziljian Hand Hammered
Ride: Sabian Hand Hammered
Hats: Sabian AAX


Oh's: Audio Technica AT2020
Kick: Sure Beta 91
Snare: Sm57 Top Only
Rack Toms: e609
Floor Tom: 835

My main issue is not being able to get the Toms to sound "Big and Full"

Here is my plugin chain for the kit:

OH's: 1176 Emulation 3:1 Ratio Thresh -20 Attack 4ms Release 650ms High Pass EQ at 150hz, Medium Room Verb 30/70 mix

Kick: Tube Tech comp 4:1 Ratio Thresh -10 Attack Medium Release Medium
EQ to Taste

Snare: Modern 1176 Emulation: Ratio 4:1 Attack 3 Release 7 Shaving about 3 DB off. Just a High pass EQ at 150 Medium Room Verb 40/60 mix

Toms: Same settings as snare on comp same EQ, same verb.

The whole kit other then kick is then bussed out to a drum verb "small room" just for some ambiance.

The toms just sond really thin and boxy and I cant figure out WHY. Even soloed.

http://www.jasoncohenitservices.com/a_change_of_pace.mp3

320Kbps

Any feedback is helpful.

 

[Charles J]

definitely not terrible by any mean but i'm hearing some weird phase issues with the snare.... it's hard to locate where it's coming from sometimes.

i always start from the BASIC CORE of any drum recording to try and deduce why something didn't come out as well as I'd like and more importantly, HOW to fix it.

my initial thought is the room you recorded the drums in (or where the drums were PLACED in the room) could be part of your problem....

also, i don't see a room mic listed....

to get a rockin' all natural drum sound, *I* personally feel it's ESSENTIAL (if you're looking to go au' naturale') to have at LEAST a spaced pair of room mics setup in omni in the best sounding spots of the room......

i personally prefer M/S stereo room mic'ing about 12ft. from the kit in ADDITION to a spaced pair of LDC's in omni...

you may not have had the luxury of the extra inputs or mics so i understand to an extent.

first thing i'd do is get that snare EQ'd to get rid of all the nasty stuff.....

try a transient designer type plug on the OH tracks with the sustain raised as high as you can get it without getting just a wash of sound. i've done this with some success when I didn't have room mic'd tracks available.... it'll bring out more of the life and breath of the room....... =D

 

[guitarguru777]

Ya there is DEFINITELY a phase issue with the snare, the guys cymbal setup was retarded, all his crash's on the left and his ride only on the left. I tried a few different OH setups but it was SOOO unbalanced, I totally forgot to think about the snare. The room mic was lost due to my partner at the studio being a douche and moving the mic then not checking it before he tracked ....

I haven't messed much with the whole M/S thing, but Ill give it a shot.

 

[LeSedna]

I'd say there is something lacking right from the beginning, maybe your mics placements are not perfect, and the room is definitely lacking ? Usually I find that well recorded drums should sound pleasant by themselves or with just a comp on its bus. Maybe the drums themselves don't sound that good ? Do you have proper overheads and room tracks ? I mean do they sound good solo-ed ? they do so much in the drum sound so they have to be top notch. I'm no expert though, never recorded drums myself (I mean properly).

 

[LeSedna]

BTW ermz posted a while ago but recently a zip file with drum tracks only, I don't remember what's inside but it's maybe worth checking that out.

 

[gabriel g.]

OH and stereo Room is essential for my drumsounds.
Last session my adat cable fucked up, and I got a clock sync error so the spdif
unit worked in 48khz in a a 44.1khz session.

End of the story, the OH tracks where fucked in 3 songs.
I ended up only using the stereo Room and it sounds great.
I use spot-AB with two small condenser mics (bayerdynamic opus 53)
both pointing at the snare with the exact same distance (around 4,5 meters) building a trangle with the snare.
If the drums sound great in the OH and in the Room channels you are good to go.

In your sample I only hear super highpassed OH tracks and no room track.
There is your problem besides the snare is horribly tuned.

Make it simple
Use a stereo AB and balance the mics so the snare is in the center.
Same for the room.

Lowcut the OH at MAX 400hz and the room at MAX 250hz
and then throw in the close mics

 

[B36arin]

A 400 Hz hi-pass filter is pretty extreme for death metal, in a mix like this you should really keep the HP filter pretty low(personally I'd say around 100 Hz). There's lots of low end information(especially for the snare) at around 125 Hz in the OH tracks. Try to make the OHs sound as good as possible and then use the close mics to supplement the OHs.

 

[AllanD]

Personally I'd cut a lot of mids in the toms, and if you already haven't I'd use some transient designing on the snare to give it more attack.

 

[Trevoire520]

Whole thing just seems to be missing alot of beef and thump I think. By the sounds of it you're going to really struggle getting any decent lows out of the snare.

Get some parallel compression going on your spot mic's to start with. This will really help to bring out some sustain and give the drums power. Watch out for high frequency wash caused by the bleed in the spot mic's, if it's bugging you then throw a steep low pass filter on before the compressor and sweep it down until it stops fucking with your cymbals.

Kick sounds too small, like you've eq'd it to sound good for fast clicky metal stuff, which obviously isn't what's going on here. Give it a nice big bump in the lows (probably 50-80hz) to give it some thump. Try bell and shelf and see which you prefer. Sounds like you've already pulled out quite a bit of 400hz-ish low mids.
Ease up on the gate, nothing wrong with letting it sustain a little for this kinda band. Really need to get the kick hitting you in the chest.

Same idea for the toms. You've got bags of articulation and attack there which is great, it just needs some lows to back it up. Go for a bell boost and sweep it around the 80-120hz area to find where the lows for each tom lie. They'd probably benefit from a cut between 400-800hz. Again sweep it around and see what works for each tom.
Personally I find myself not using compression on toms these days unless I really need to control the dynamics, so give that a go and see if you prefer it.

Snare give it a low shelf boost around 200hz, maybe a cut around 500hz. I think you're going to struggle here though as it's tuned very high.

As has already been said don't be afraid to leave some lows in the overheads, sometimes you can get away with only high passing around 120hz or so.

I've once done a simulated room mic by duplicating my overhead tracks, doing a low pass to make them darker, maybe adding a tiny touch of room reverb and then smashing them with an 1176. Blend this in underneath your main overheads and it can add some nice beef. Doesn't always work though.

Maybe try a plate reverb instead of the room you've got on just now, or go for a longer room verb. Reverb should really help add the tail and wash to the drums. You'll know when you've got it right as if you mute the verb it'll suddenly sound very unexciting.

Overall don't be afraid to be heavy handed with eq and compression, natural drums normally need alot of processing especially when the kit and room aren't world class. If you get it right though there's a real life you can get that doesn't really exist with sampled drums. You're at the mercy of the drummer though and if he hits inconsistently or without enough power then you're pretty much fucked.

 

[guitarguru777]

Thanks for all the advice guys Ill implement some of this tomorrow and see how it goes. The snare in this thing is really driving me nuts, no matter what I do no body at all. I may have to blend a sample in.

The kit is amazing and it sounds incredible in the room, I am starting to think I am over thinking things with the OH's maybe go back to me CO2's instead of the AT2020s

 

[greyskull]

Toms sound thin? Adjust your compression, You're either compressing to0 fast or too hard.

 

[ahjteam]

I'll check it when I get home, but without hearing and judging just from the settings you posted, you are most likely killing the stuff with bad compression (too fast attack and too long release) and too much high pass filtering.

 

[LeSedna]

Could you upload the drums only with no compression nor Eq applied to them, raw with just volume and panning ?

 

[guitarguru777]

Uploading raw drums now.

http://www.jasoncohenitservices.com/raw_drums.mp3

 

[AudioGeekZine]

Thanks for all the advice guys Ill implement some of this tomorrow and see how it goes. The snare in this thing is really driving me nuts, no matter what I do no body at all. I may have to blend a sample in.

Sounds like (from your description) that the snare is out of phase with the overheads. if polarity button doesn't fix it you can try adding a small sample delay to the snare.

The kit is amazing and it sounds incredible in the room, I am starting to think I am over thinking things with the OH's maybe go back to me CO2's instead of the AT2020s

My condolences, both terrible mics.

 

[AEL89]

I remember posting in your last thread about natural drums... Make sure the snare is equidistant from both overhead mics. It might help to imagine the centre line of the kit (it cuts through the kick and snare) when positioning your overheads. I think ahjteam had a useful picture of this that may help. Have you considered selling both your overhead mics and putting that towards a new pair?

Have you thought about a pair of chinese ribbons for OHs? I use some for room mics but they'd be equally cool for overheads - especially for the style of drums in the clip you posted.

 

[guitarguru777]

So I am guessing my pink center line I have been using is shit, and I should be using the blue one. (thats a guess as to where it should be to keep the snare in phase)

 

[AEL89]

So I am guessing my pink center line I have been using is shit, and I should be using the blue one. (thats a guess as to where it should be to keep the snare in phase)

You've got it. Its easier to space your overheads if you use that as a reference. Now just take a piece of string or a tape measure and make sure the capsules of the microphones are the same distance away from the centre of the snare.

 

[drew_drummer]

Sounds to me like you mic'd the snare too close to the skin, so all of the body is happening outside of the microphones flame tip. Same with the toms too.

The kick isn't too bad, has a nice click to it. But there only really seems to be a very short amount of decay - the texture isn't there for me. Are you gating it quite heavily???

Not getting any sense of the room at all from this recording. In that case, I'd trigger from the main drums some samples, but try to route the samples to a reverb, and take the main samples out of the mix. Thus giving you a room tone that you can shape alongside the main drums.

 

[heshian46]

You've got it. Its easier to space your overheads if you use that as a reference. Now just take a piece of string or a tape measure and make sure the capsules of the microphones are the same distance away from the centre of the snare.

Yea your snare will be in phase, but your stereo cymbal spread will be fucked. You'll need to find a happy medium between the two in order to get even separation.