Homophobia

the only argument you gave about gays being unnatural was that only straight couples can reproduce.

and just because you have a problem with someone's behavior that is not harmful/a handicap to individuals or society doesn't mean you have any reason or right to dictate said behavior. if you'd rather not see gays holding hands or kissing, don't take your children to places where there might be gay people and keep them at the gun club or whatever.
 
the only argument you gave about gays being unnatural was that only straight couples can reproduce.

and just because you have a problem with someone's behavior that is not harmful/a handicap to individuals or society doesn't mean you have any reason or right to dictate said behavior. if you'd rather not see gays holding hands or kissing, don't take your children to places where there might be gay people and keep them at the gun club or whatever.



ya OK Kramp... drama queen much ?

This is not about "me", this was a discussion about public behavior and why various reactions occur. Your final statement goes both ways.

Anyhow this is what I said regarding why its natural for opposite sexs to pair up apart from breeding. All the denial in the world will not change any of this.

"scientific research has some fairly reasonable explainations as to why the various physical traits of the two sexs are found appealing to each other."
 
Now is this world of mostly male-female couples existant due to some unnatural reason ? Is it all because their elders for some unnatural reason pairs up in a manor that would allow natural reproduction ? Is the higher percentage of males and females that find features in the opposite sex sexually stimulating all because of we've just had it all wrong since the beginning ? That an ill feeling is the stomach of displays of same sex physical affection is all due to this ? Im not buyin

You're very quick to conflate the desire to mate with the opposite sex with a queasiness at same-sex couples going at it. Just because one is a fundamental biological reaction doesn't mean the other is. I don't like mint flavouring, but I don't feel sick when I watch someone eating such. I might feel a bit off if they got stuck into a brew of sheep testicles, as it's regarded as somewhat disgusting in my culture. Other cultures grow up with it and it is not disgusting. I doubt the children of today will feel such queasiness at homo PDA as yourself.



I dont see how "please spare me" is a shit natural response of those not careing to be exposed to homo sexual displays. Its simply a right to feel however anyone wants to feel about it. Certainly not a shit response to having ones children exposed to it.

I didn't say it was a shit response, I just made the point that not all 'natural' responses are desirable, as you seem to assume and base any argument on. Whether or not it's a shit response requires a contrast with some goal. Modern society takes a fairly egalitarian stance, and in such a context it is a shit response. You mightn't share such views, whatever, I couldn't care either way - I like clear thought and consistency of views and actions with values, but you're welcome to your base values ;)


Yes the world we live in today is a forced world in just about every way. Regarding this subject and other politically similar ones we have the desires of 51% imposing them on the remaining 49% that doesnt want them. I fail to see how this addresses everyones sensitivities and amounts to nothing less than bullying, far from the proclaimed desired purpose the liberal PC's base their very arguements on... because they are fuckin hypocrites, plain and simple.

You did not respond to the barfing scenerio, or how about one where most think its pretty gross to see mutilated body parts... unnatural ? imposed on us by our elders ?

You have a stupidly simplistic view of social exchanges if you think a simple majority of preference is the end story. Can't really be arsed explaining it to you, though maybe if you make another thread with horrendous assumptions I'd have a go sometime. I didn't respond to every line you wrote because I addressed the concerns elsewhere. Yes, our responses range on a scale of entirely genetic to entirely learned, with plenty of grey area in the middle. Trying to infer the genetic predisposition of one response because of another is retarded, and as stated elsewhere, genetic responses can be in conflict and not useful in our modern world. Just because your genes predispose you to something doesn't mean it is good for fucks sake.



Assuming this was a sarcastic response, the parallel is that its an example of two different natural responses to someone being exposed to a less than comfortable situation imposed on them because somebody was exibiting the right of freedom to act however they want. This DOES NOT equate into a series of name calling terminology inflicted for the soul purpose of imposing guilt because this person took to one of the two responses I applied.

So you're allowed to find things disgusting and respond in whatever way, but people are not allowed to dislike your response? Great consistency :tickled:



Homos can restrain their desires to nibble till they get home or deal with the variety of responses they recieve in the mean time, cause thats fucking life !

Likewise, you might have to restrain your response, or deal with being viewed as an intolerant bigot, 'cause thats fucking life !' :)

'The status quo is the status quo' type arguments don't really go anywhere interesting do they...
 
lolol

suppose burn victims and disfigured war vets ought to keep out of the public eye since no one wants to see them AMIRITE?
 
You're very quick to conflate the desire to mate with the opposite sex with a queasiness at same-sex couples going at it.

Sorry but you are being evasive through out this discussion, I just addressed Krampus on this, it has to do with traits of the opposite sex that are stimulating to each other where same sex is not. Doesnt really have to do with poping babys out every 10 months.
Just because one is a fundamental biological reaction doesn't mean the other is.
Possibly a misprint but true as Im reading it

I don't like mint flavouring, but I don't feel sick when I watch someone eating such.
I despise cottage cheese and yes it makes me sick to see it on the table, same for the smell of parmasian (sorry if thats a misspell)
I might feel a bit off if they got stuck into a brew of sheep testicles, as it's regarded as somewhat disgusting in my culture. Other cultures grow up with it and it is not disgusting.
As with most foods there is plenty of pussy to eat and it comes quite natural to normal males.
I doubt the children of today will feel such queasiness at homo PDA as yourself.
We could also de-sensitise them to human delimbing, that would be a proud moment
I didn't say it was a shit response, I just made the point that not all 'natural' responses are desirable, as you seem to assume and base any argument on.
They should be accepted and easily understood without the need to slander people with ignorant names
Whether or not it's a shit response requires a contrast with some goal. Modern society takes a fairly egalitarian stance, and in such a context it is a shit response.
Did you miss the part where modern society consists roughly to the equivalent of 51% imposeing thier ideas on 49% or the loudest criers imposing their beliefs on those just wanting to get through the day ?
You mightn't share such views, whatever, I couldn't care either way - I like clear thought and consistency of views and actions with values, but you're welcome to your base values ;)
AGAIN : 1) This isnot about "me" 2) the subject at hand revolves around various reactions to gay PDA and yes they are very basic to understand but NO they do not equate into "fear of homos" and calling names is only going to piss people off, as I intentionally illustrated in many posts.
You have a stupidly simplistic view of social exchanges if you think a simple majority of preference is the end story.
Covered in above paragraph but what is stupid is people that cant understand. Same as people that cant understand gays just were born a bit off and prefer their own body type, however my personal conclusion is that today in our "modern world" the gays are having more trouble accepting these very SIMPLE things.
Can't really be arsed explaining it to you, though maybe if you make another thread with horrendous assumptions I'd have a go sometime.[/qoute] I fail to see any "horrendous assumption" on my part but if you care to show me in a quote I might find the error of my ways. I have only been giving the reason for the variety of reactions that might occur and why they dont equate into the necessity of name calling or "fear of homos"
I didn't respond to every line you wrote because I addressed the concerns elsewhere.
I just did and not to be an ass either, there was just that much to address... but anyhow I see alot of your stuff as distractions and evasive to the basic understanding of natural reactions and the right to have them free of being called names.
Yes, our responses range on a scale of entirely genetic to entirely learned, with plenty of grey area in the middle.
Thank you, the gay PDA that is the subject I have been discussing comes naturally to those who only find the opposite sex physically appealing and the same sex gross in a sexual context. Thats all, not instantly "homophobes" "bigots" "prejudice", "bla, bla, bla"
Trying to infer the genetic predisposition of one response because of another is retarded,
Huh ?
and as stated elsewhere, genetic responses can be in conflict and not useful in our modern world.
Yeah ? According to which side of the story ? As I stated previously natural responses need to be accepted and "modern society" needs to grow the fuck up and stop verbally spanking everyone like little pissed off bitches everytime someone shows that they are human.
Just because your genes predispose you to something doesn't mean it is good for fucks sake.
In regards to this subject, you are saying because someone is born naturally attracted to the opposite sex and sexually rejecting to the same sex is bad ? Ookay!
So you're allowed to find things disgusting and respond in whatever way, but people are not allowed to dislike your response? Great consistency :tickled:
key word for those serious about a "modern society"... UNDERSTANDING... big word but quite useful. People can dislike something all they want so long as they are not ignorant enough to not understand whay certain things occur. We dont like the fire buring our hand, so we learn not to stick our hand in it... more primal shit ya know
Likewise, you might have to restrain your response, or deal with being viewed as an intolerant bigot, 'cause thats fucking life !' :)
What would be interesting is for someone to prove that 99% of people do not restrain, infact I would say the ball asses on all current social issues have been spared much due rath, but most people prefer to be passive or avoiding. Currently I would have to say on this subject the gays are the aggressors.

People can view others how ever they feel so long as they realize stuff like intolerant bigot simply bounces back at them. Myself, living in a society that preaches 0 tolerance, I like to adhere to it
'The status quo is the status quo' type arguments don't really go anywhere interesting do they...
On this subject the statis quo being pushed is anyone that responds in anyway adverse to what we want to do will be called any thing we feel from this list of names because we refuse to understand why peoples is people
 
Now I am 100% sure you have rabies.

In this thread you have gone from being fanatically pissed off at modern society for being a bunch of PC liberals to arguing that it is not wrong to be heterosexual to calling homosexuals unnatural to saying that gays were "born a bit off and prefer their own body type."
 
I just did and not to be an ass either, there was just that much to address... but anyhow I see alot of your stuff as distractions and evasive to the basic understanding of natural reactions and the right to have them free of being called names.


Yeah ? According to which side of the story ? As I stated previously natural responses need to be accepted and "modern society" needs to grow the fuck up and stop verbally spanking everyone like little pissed off bitches everytime someone shows that they are human.

I think these two paragraphs are the crux of disagreement :)
'Rights' are just a social construction of stuff that is deemed ok. You don't have any 'right' to anything you deem 'natural'. Rape is a fairly natural action but you'll cop worse than names if you engage in it. I agree with you that acceptance of personal tastes is good, but when personal tastes create negative issues for others (ie being raped, or made to feel uncomfortable because of who you like to kiss) then others in turn exercise their own personal taste and respond with laws and social stigma.
 
lolol

suppose burn victims and disfigured war vets ought to keep out of the public eye since no one wants to see them AMIRITE?

good lord are you simple minded

ignoring the fact that in a previous post you said something nearly indicating that, which I knew you did mistakenly... cause Im not simple.

In this context, that of the subject being discussed... that of natural responses, what happens to disfigured people is they might be stared at as in keep drawing the eye, or an initial reaction of shock, it sucks but happens. Like the person with a bad eye and when making eye contact while talking to them you become confused and your eyes dart back and forth from one eye to the other. All natural and innocent. At the same time disfigured people dont go out for the soul purpose of making a sexual scene or statement. Further on a whole PDA is considered to be unessessary and questionable and again very infrequent, it still seems to be a big issue for gays though, I'm not sure why that is.
 
Now I am 100% sure you have rabies.

In this thread you have gone from being fanatically pissed off at modern society for being a bunch of PC liberals to arguing that it is not wrong to be heterosexual to calling homosexuals unnatural to saying that gays were "born a bit off and prefer their own body type."

you have extreme comprehension issues but as I said you love to engage in distraction and not have to produce any thought from yourself.

"to arguing that it is not wrong to be heterosexual"

this implies rabies in what way?

"to calling homosexuals unnatural"
"born a bit off and prefer their own body type."

how does this cause you problems ?

"fanatically pissed off at modern society for being a bunch of PC liberals"
this does not represent all of modern society, this regards ball assed PC liberals imposeing their beliefs on ALL

Blowtus indicated before a structure to stick too, if you want to participate please stick to it or admit to youself you just cant present a decent debate toward anything.
 
I think these two paragraphs are the crux of disagreement :)
'Rights' are just a social construction of stuff that is deemed ok. You don't have any 'right' to anything you deem 'natural'. Rape is a fairly natural action but you'll cop worse than names if you engage in it. I agree with you that acceptance of personal tastes is good, but when personal tastes create negative issues for others (ie being raped, or made to feel uncomfortable because of who you like to kiss) then others in turn exercise their own personal taste and respond with laws and social stigma.

I dont see how they contradict each other, must be a matter of interpretation

I dont agree rape is natural but that is from my personal... ??? traits ??? I have walked away from many willing girls because I was not getting the feedback I need to proceed. I simply have never been able to imagine forcing myself on a girl, I wanna have a mutual good time, not force it or simply be "allowed".

Who you like to kiss - theres a time and a place for everything, good ideal to adhere to, for those that cant or wish to push issues will have to deal with their discomfort because discomfort goes both ways, takes two to tango baby

Social stigma - is forcing others to adhere, through guilt, works on young ones, or gumby adults, but for so many it simply bounces
Laws- are way out of control and being forced by ball asses, currently in the US against the agreement of massive amounts of the population, its always good to see it come around and choke those once mislead aka hypocrites
 
Further on a whole PDA is considered to be unessessary and questionable and again very infrequent, it still seems to be a big issue for gays though, I'm not sure why that is.

Is it really a big issue? Can you link some articles or news stories illustrating this?

I don't think I'll respect your wishes telling me to stick to a "debate formula" when you insult my intelligence in every single reply to my posts.

The rabies thing is in response to the way you meander and word-vomit all over the place in the Philosopher thread (and other threads) on here. e.g.

razoredge said:
Who you like to kiss - theres a time and a place for everything, good ideal to adhere to, for those that cant or wish to push issues will have to deal with their discomfort because discomfort goes both ways, takes two to tango baby

Social stigma - is forcing others to adhere, through guilt, works on young ones, or gumby adults, but for so many it simply bounces
Laws- are way out of control and being forced by ball asses, currently in the US against the agreement of massive amounts of the population, its always good to see it come around and choke those once mislead aka hypocrites
 
Is it really a big issue? Can you link some articles or news stories illustrating this?

I don't think I'll respect your wishes telling me to stick to a "debate formula" when you insult my intelligence in every single reply to my posts.

The rabies thing is in response to the way you meander and word-vomit all over the place in the Philosopher thread (and other threads) on here. e.g.

maybe because you dont contribute anything intelligent ? Then want to say I "word vomit" ? alrighty then, quite ironic considering your posts.

The big issue is that for some reason this is a big issue to many gays.
 
Originally Posted by razoredge
the word homophobia to me is nothing more than a diminutive weapon used againt those unwilling to accept IN YER FACE homosexual activity. Nothing more, nothing less. Phobia = irrational persistant fear. No one is a feared of homos = bogus term. I guess it makes the term itself a phobia because its a totally irrational name to call people... used by people that are afraid of straight people firm in their beliefs of what is appropriate behavior.

Homophobia is a bogus term, however "queer" is not because that is exactly how most straight people feel inside upon observing same sex, sex acts.... yet out of decency we have dropped the term and adopted the term "gay" which only 30 years ago meant something totally different and was in common use under its origional defination.

It is not that you are ‘unable’ to accept homosexual behaviour in your presence, but simply that you are ‘unwilling.' I would like to suggest that this unwillingness is, in a sense, phobic, but not in the reductive sense of a homophobia but rather of an expanded anxiety of gender and sexuality.

Gender and sexuality do not exist as fixed ontological essences but are instead conditioned as constructs of performativity within a social episteme (cultural way of knowing/ordering). Even a cursory genealogy of gender or sex will reveal the errors of essentialism when one considers the differing historical meanings of ‘man,’ ‘woman,’ ‘heterosexual’ and ‘homosexual.’ These differences are not definitional but culturally hermeneutic; we do not gain knowledge of what it means to be a ‘man’ from a dictionary but by encountering ‘men’ in their worldly situation.

With gender and sexuality this epistemic conditioning (into a cultural world of being) takes place by what Judith Butler calls an act of interpellation. Below I'll summarise some Butler's ideas on gender. I'll give notes and summary of the Routlege Guide (passim). Gender and sexuality exist in the peculiar category of interpellations that occur without the acceptance of the subject. When a child is born and the doctor proclaims “It’s a girl” he is acculturating the baby into the performativity of a gender, conditioned and determined by the discourses of its cultural world. This is why de Beavouir notes that “one is not born a woman but becomes one.’ The biological body and its genitals do not meaningfully exist prior to this act of interpellation.

Because of this predetermination of interpellation, when one designates behaviour as “homosexual” one is not automatically summoning a “homosexual” subject to answer to that designation. Ethical interpellation must allow the voice of the summoned, of the Other, to respond, in the same way that, when summoned in public by a policeman yelling “hey, sir!”, you confirm your subjectivity by turning to face him. Criminal acts (including criminal sexual acts) may be defined as those towards which there is no ethical requirement to allow a mutual affirming of the act of interpellation (note: when criminals do take the opportunity to plead guilty they are treated more favourably)

Because of the primordial violence of their interpellation, there are no fixed ‘male’ or ‘female’ subjects. ‘Heterosexuals’ and ‘homosexuals’ are not stable subjective identities. Rather, these roles do not exist outside of their performative occurrence. A subject does not perform ‘homosexual’ or ‘heterosexual’ acts; these acts are themselves the sole criteria of the sexual designation and are not stable but subject to the vicissitudes of discursive flux.

The term ‘queer’ is suggestive of continuing movement, and becoming. It comes from a Latin root meaning ‘across,’ which in turn derives from the Indo-Latin torquere, to twist. This continuing process beautifully describes acts of gender subversion that point to the ‘truth’ of gender (and sexuality): that neither homosexuality nor heterosexuality are ‘natural’ fixed identities but that the field of human sexuality must remain plural and open, never being confused with the identity of a subject.

To borrow from linguistics, sexual acts are not perlocutionary, constative utterances of description, describing a sexual subject in the same way that we might describe the weather as being “a sunny day” but are illocutionary in their perfomative utterance; revealing sexuality in their very performativity. (See Salih, and passim for the above paragrraphs)

The fact that you find the term “homophobia” diminutive while expounding upon its danger as a weapon against perceived heteronormativity bifurcates your hostility to a structure of ‘self’ and ‘Other,’ or ‘Normal’ and ‘Deviant.’ like Zizek's argument that extreme right wing nationalists identify a “threat” from immigrants that are supposedly both lazy and hard working at the same time (simultaneously able to “take our jobs” and “sponge on welfare”), the simultaneous belittling and fervent denouncement of the term “homophobia” creates a mythical Other against which to better define the self.

That this Other is apotropaic is revealed by the wider phobia that it wards against. A phobia of the instability of sexual identity and the arbitrary and unnatural construction of heterosexuality. When revelling in their queer, performative instability it would seem that homosexual acts still carry the power to subvert. I would therefore encourage the rampant outbreak of homosexual acts of kissing in public, particularly in fast food outlets, and can already suggest the advertising slogan: “A visit to McDonalds makes it gay!”
 
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To borrow from linguistics, sexual acts are not perlocutionary, constative utterances of description, describing a sexual subject in the same way that we might describe the weather as being “a sunny day” but are illocutionary in their perfomative utterance; revealing sexuality in their very performativity.

Although I quote only this paragraph, the query applies to the whole more generally...

I don't understand the distinction you try to make here. Am I mistaken or is it typical pomo style critique and allowing fixed / objective / essences for some but not all things, with logic to the choice based only on what the critic desires people to question? How is a sunny day judgement qualitatively different to a homosexual judgement? Either they both call upon social constructions or neither, I don't see how you can cut it both ways...


Sorry if you were only trying to stir Razor... queer mcdonalds :tickled:
 
Although I quote only this paragraph, the query applies to the whole more generally...

I don't understand the distinction you try to make here. Am I mistaken or is it typical pomo style critique and allowing fixed / objective / essences for some but not all things, with logic to the choice based only on what the critic desires people to question? How is a sunny day judgement qualitatively different to a homosexual judgement? Either they both call upon social constructions or neither, I don't see how you can cut it both ways...


Sorry if you were only trying to stir Razor... queer mcdonalds :tickled:

I am suggesting a linguistic difference. If I declare "it’s a nice day," I'm taking a public stand upon myself as one-who-is-enjoying-the-weather, at once naming and disclosing/describing my being-before-the-elements. The ‘truth’ of the nice day is neither essentialist nor relative, but a potentiality for coming-to-be in different worlds of cultural meaning. (We are always bound to our cultural world but this binding becomes tenuous on the few occasions when we adopt a purely theoretical/Cartesian subjectivity and – for example – describe a ‘nice’ day by noting the geometric shape and position of the clouds, the angle of the sun and the particular hue of the surrounding colours.)

A heterosexual act (per Butler), by contrast, ought not to involve a public stand as a heterosexual subject because sexualities do not meaningfully exist as cultural subjective identities but are constructed by social performativity in such a way that they only exist in their performance. Linguistically, homosexuality performs itself in its utterance, in the same way that answering “I do” at a marriage ceremony performs an act of marriage but unlike marriage it does not reveal a subject because sexualities are empty of subjective content. They are acts not identities.
 
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