How do make guitar more glue?

Fr0zen

Member
Mar 13, 2011
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0
6
Germany
Hi sneapsters,

im currently mixing a song and have problems gluing bass and guitars together. I already gave the bass a bit distortion, HP guitars at about 100 Hz, then cut some at around 140 Hz to make the bass shine more in this area, and on the other hand, cutting the bass around 230 Hz Area to make the guitar more audible there. Im looking for a tone, where you cannot hear the difference between bass and guitars, sounding like one instrument instead of two (hope you understand what i mean :D).

So I'll link you some files, perhaps any1 could give me some advices. I actually quite like what the bass sounds so far (perhaps a bit "farty"?) and think it interacts well with the drums, but the guitars just dont fit. But perhaps there is something im overlooking here and the fault is not in the guitars? ;)

Drum + Bass: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7398241/17.mp3
Drum + Bass + Guitar: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7398241/bgd.mp3
Drums: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7398241/drums.mp3
Bass: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7398241/bass.mp3
Guitar: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7398241/guitars.mp3

Really appreciating any comments!
Cheers d00ds.
 
I really lke the bass tone on the drums+bass file, but the guitars seem to be masking too much of the bass grit/distorsion on the full mix, I mean the bass is heard quite clearly, but I can mostly hear the clean sound, you could try to find a bigger space for the bass distorsion to come through, somewhere around the mids/lowmids, you're letting the clean bass through at 140 hz as you said, but the distorsion harmonics are higher than that, and personally I don't normally like guitars to have big presence around 200/400 hz but that's personal and it also varies greatly depending on all variables. No offense, but it sounds like you're just following an instruction manual in spectral eqing, try using your ears more before going straight to 140 and 230, there are endless options when mixing bass and guitar into a wall of sound type of tone.

Oh and this should be in Rate my mix section, it's specifically about your issue, not a general production tip IMO
 
thanks for your input dan, it really brought me a step forward. Your assumption about the "followed instruction" is actually spot on, im really new to audio engineering and am not trusting my ears a lot, so i read a lot instead of just trying to find out what sounds good with my own ears. Maybe thats a fault, idk...

I posted it here in the production tips cos i thought there would be general hints to get that wall of sound like tone.
 
thanks for your input dan, it really brought me a step forward. Your assumption about the "followed instruction" is actually spot on, im really new to audio engineering and am not trusting my ears a lot, so i read a lot instead of just trying to find out what sounds good with my own ears. Maybe thats a fault, idk...

I posted it here in the production tips cos i thought there would be general hints to get that wall of sound like tone.

we all fall in that trap, it's normal. My honest advice, would be to start Eqing with your eyes closed. Sounds gay, actually feels gay when you do it, but it helps to actually hear what you're doing. grab a band, and sweep it around, or go up and down slowly while listening carefully. This works wonders with Low and highpass filters, I always filter that way. And another tip, try not to mix instruments in solo too often, when you're eqing 90% of the time you should be doing with all instruments playing, cause context is everything when mixing
 
I like some of the sounds you are getting but to me the issue seems to mostly be with the guitars. In the drum+bass+guit clip the guitars are way too loud and the high mids/highs are completely dominating. When you have something sticking out that much its impossible to sound glued. You're doing something I do alot too though, and everyone does to some extent. You don't have the whole song down yet so you're trying to make it sound like a whole production when there isn't one there. Try to mix knowing that other things will need to be in there. Those guitars will kill vocals and everything else too. I have a habit of making guitars too bright sometimes too, but when I do it the whole track suffers. Also be careful of the volume of any one instrument. Remember they are working together to create a bigger picture. For instance, if you want those guitars to sound big and punchy then you have to let the kick and bass do their job. They will emphasize what the guitar is doing if the guitar isn't completely covering them. Also be very mindful of the performance. When things arent locking up you immediately kill impact. In the beginning chuggy part everything is a little off from everything else in places which will cause problems you can't fix with any EQ or compressor. Notice in the second part of the clip everything starts gel'ing better because everything is more locked in.

Now on to more specifics. Just for shits I did a 10 min mix of your raw tracks to try to bring down some of the things that were bothering me so I could be a little more specific. I also tried to take into account what you might be going for since you definitely accentuated things. Resist the urge to make your guitars sound like a razorblade. You can't solo guitars when you EQ unless there is just something terrible in there you need to find to remove. In the case of your clip 2k and up was just chainsawing me so I used a shelf EQ to bring down a bunch of that starting around 2k. I also took a generous scoop out of 500-800Hz. It made the guitars a little less cluttered so your bass could be heard a little better. The lowend was also pretty thin but a lot of that was also because the mid-high end was boosted a lot. I think its good you are HPing things but when doing them make sure to listen with your other tracks going so you can hear when you've thinned it out too much. If you have to take them that far because the lowend is already there but it sounds off then you have to look at what istaking up that space that your guitars want to be in. So I boosted a bit down low until I could hear it starting to mesh with the bass more. Overall wanted to try to keep the character of your guitars intact since you obviously chose that sound because you liked it but also make room for some other things.

Onto the bass. It sounds cool by itself but you have to figure out what role you want it to have in the song. Is it just there to support the stuff on top of it? Are you aiming to actually be able to hear it or just feel it making the guitars bigger? If you want it to be heard but not completely clobber the guitars room you'll have to thin it out a good bit between 250Hz-1k. Again its about listening to it in the context of the mix and not by itself. I'll admit it sounded cool by itself but as soon as you put the guitars in there they are fighting and then it becomes and issue of whether to EQ or if something is just too loud. In this case I felt it to be an EQ issue. There's plenty of room for everything but not if you have everything going balls out all over the place. In the little mix I made everything is still overblown and needs more control in my opinion but I made everything super loud so you could at least hear it all punching through. So for the bass I cut the mids a good bit. It didn't sound as full alone as your original track and but it made it possible to bring it up in the mix without killing the drums or guitars completely so you could actually hear it more if that's what you wanted. So I left the lowend alone, cut some mids and brought it back up around 1k-3k so you could hear a little of that rattle. So again it comes down to what role you want it to play. Is it there to be felt? Heard? Character? I chose to have it hold down the lowend, be heard and and while it still has plenty of mids it leaves room for the guitars. On the drum track I just did a little cut between 4-5k to bring your kick click down a little since I was killing the highend on everything else and the click was sticking out a little more than I liked.

What really helped me start to get better though was asking myself what I was trying to do overall and what I wanted certain instruments role to be. Works out much better than trying to get everything to sound badass alone and then cramming it together or cutting or boosting just because you read it somewhere. Remember those things you read are good to know only if you know why you are doing them. If someone says to do a big cut between 200-400Hz understand why you're doing it and what you're combating so you know when to do it or when to leave it alone. That and when you encounter a problem you're more likely to have an idea what needs to be done instead of just randomly turning knobs hoping it gets better. Also try mixing into a bus compressor. I try not to take off more than 4dB at the loudest point. It'll be more glued and hit harder if I go farther but it also starts sounding smaller so that seems to be a sweet spot for a lot of people in regards to bus compression.

I know this is long winded and I repeated myself a lot but I think understanding the concepts are important if you want to improve. I'm constantly still struggling but by having this mindset I'm finding that I struggle less and I'm sure as time goes on I'll get better and better. I'm actually doing preproduction with a band right now where I have the same kind of situation. They want it to sound raw, but modern, have a big nasty bass, and big guitars. So the battle rages on. :loco:

Anyway this mix is not great by any means but it's the best I can do in 10 mins! :D Everything is loud and hopefully it'll give you some ideas.

2nd clip is the preproduction I'm working on where I'm dealing with a similar instrument situation. Static mix (no automation) and everything was EQd for the middle part so FX are a little too much in the beginning but I like them in the mix. Take it easy dude! Good luck!

Your clip - http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8643460/exmeh.mp3
My prepro - http://soundcloud.com/mesa4x12er/roughy
 
holy guacamole, thank you so much for your help, especially Mesa4x12er! I didnt expect an brilliant answer like that, im still stoked even after the 3rd time reading (and hearing) it :D.

One thing you mentioned was the little untight performance on the first chugs that i noticed as well, so i just copied the the second part and replaced the first one - it instantly got better.

About the guitars, i boosted the area around 2k quite a bit cos i compared my guitar-eq-curve with a soloed guitar track of lamb of god that i liked. But obviously i boosted just with eyes and not with ears which is, as i know now, a big mistake. I even have the impression that boosting guitar with eq after tracking always sounds strange. Btw, i posted that song 6 months ago to find out what was wrong with the guitar sound, but nearly everyone liked that guitar sound back then. Funnily i barely used any eq on the guitars back then, so i think my post-eq just destroyed it alot :D. Here is the link if you are interested: http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/production-tips/678065-what-heck-wrong-these-guitars.html

With the bass, to be honest, i dont know yet where i want it to have. I guess i just have to try out what suits best, ill experiment with it a bit. Currently im at work, but when i come home ill try to create a more balanced mix with your help :).
 
It makes me happy to see newcomers actually listening and learning instead of "demanding a solution" as many seem to do lately (like "tell me what freq to boost already and stop yapping about source material!"), I think you're on the right track, and you are 100% right about it sounding odd when boosting too much. Fact is, our ears are much more sensitive to Eq boosts than to cuts so it always pops out more and sounds unnatural, a common tactic is to always cut before boosting. Guitars need more mid presence? Cut mids from bass or vocals to make space for it instead of boosting the guitars, makes for a mix that breaths more if you know what I mean. Boosting is fine but make sure it's really needed and that cutting elsewhere doesn't solve it. And it's to constantly be A/Bing your changes to make sure it's actually making it sound better and not worse, as you mentioned happened to you before. When we've been mixing for several hours in a row, we tend to lose perspective so be careful with that
 
Your guitars are pretty undergained and your bass is not sitting well. Put some more gain on your guitars to thicken them up, and perhaps add some more distortion to the midrange of the bass. The bass also needs less mids, especially if you're going to be putting vocals over this.