How many releases do you buy a year?

How many releases do you buy a year?

  • 0 - 25

    Votes: 25 34.2%
  • 25 - 50

    Votes: 24 32.9%
  • 50 - 100

    Votes: 15 20.5%
  • More than 100

    Votes: 9 12.3%

  • Total voters
    73
I get where you guys are coming from, but skyrefuge is not wrong. As the music industry has "collapsed", more music than ever has been produced. And more to the point, more great music has been produced than ever. There will always be music. There will always be great music. Will musicians ever be compensated the way they once were? Probably not. But the cold hard truth is, that's the way of this world. Technology has damaged many, many industries. It just the harsh reality of it.
 
There are tons of bands wih passion that are unable to put out music due to "lack of interest," i.e. not enough fans buying their music because they can download their music for free. To claim that these bands lack passion for what they do is inane.

Guess I will *never* understand not paying for music I enjoy because I can pirate it easily and quickly.

Strawman. He never once advocated piracy and consumes his music legally.

Sorry, but I just can't get on board with any of this. It comes down to telling bands they should spend their time and money, and maybe - maybe - we'll throw them some pocket change.


Not that I fully disagree with you, but is this not the foundation for business? A company invests capital to sell a product and then the market decides whether or not it wants to buy it. If the market isn't interested, the business collapses.

I mentioned iTunes. It took almost 10 years for iTunes to become profitable. Spotify has been around for almost 10 years now and it's still not profitable either. Why is this somehow easily overlooked, but bands should be somehow coddled and should never have to lose money? Because they're "cool"? Bands have to work to be successful, like anyone who starts a business and sells something. It's not a free lunch. They have to earn the market's dollars if that's what they want.

I'm not happy with seeing the music business continually struggling either, so don't get me wrong. I would like to see more CD sales in general - but Spotify isn't the cause of that. If anything, it's been offsetting piracy by large degrees according to industry stats.
 
When you compare the size of FLAC to MP3, you're talking about a 4x size difference.

Ok, just to be clear, here you're talking about costs for the digital distributors (Apple, Google, Amazon), which, I suppose are now technically part of "the music industry", but as technology companies previously unaffiliated with music, they aren't really what I think of when someone talks about "greed in the music industry".

The entire music catalog of these services would take around 200-300TB of disk space. Turn them to FLAC and they'd need around 1000TB (1 petabyte). While that is certainly a cost, let's see how it compares: it turns out that if every Gmail user had only 2MB in their inbox, that would also equal 1 petabyte of storage. And in terms of bandwidth, the streaming services provided by these distributors must swallow at least an order-of-magnitude more bandwidth than one-time downloads do. In other words, I think quadrupling the bitrate of their music catalogs would go nearly unnoticed in the storage/bandwidth costs for these companies.

So if it's not a choice made by the distributors for cost reasons, could it be a choice made by the labels for control reasons? They don't want "lossless" digital versions of their music out there? It's hard to make that conclusion, since HDtracks sells FLAC hi-res versions of many major-label releases. And it's now quite some time ago that the labels realized how counter-productive it was to attempt to limit "what gets out there", and removed DRM. So it would seem weird for them limit FLAC for those reasons.

Finally, it seems odd that the music industry wouldn't be trying to sell something like FLAC as "higher quality" (whether it was or not) at a higher price, in order to make more money. And in fact, this did happen with "iTunes Plus", when simultaneously, Apple doubled their bitrate, removed DRM, and raised their prices. But presumably they have data (and the music industry remembers the failure of SACD and DVD-Audio) revealing that once the quality reaches a certain point, the vast majority of consumers just don't give a shit, and won't pay any more money.

So my best guess at the moment is that bitrates sit where they are because it serves the most customers the best: 1) the quality is good enough for the vast, vast majority of their customers; 2) having a single bitrate available eliminates customer paralysis from the paradox of choice; 3) they don't complain about having too little space on their devices (or about their devices being too expensive due to the need to contain 4x the storage).

As for changing formats in the future: in a world where everyone is already moving away from downloads and over to streaming, it shows that consumers are caring less and less about "ownership" of music at all, so they most definitely don't care about the particular format that music is encoded in.

In an ideal situation for both consumers and the industry, they wouldn't even know the name (MP3, AAC, FLAC) of the format they're listening to, just as no one gives a shit about the video encoding used by their cable company. And that's happening with streaming. Even a nerd like me has no idea what format Spotify files are. All that music lovers really want is to be able to push a button and hear a song that makes them happy. The vast majority of times when music touches our emotions, we're in some place (a concert, a car, a club, etc.) where the environment "degrades" the audio far more than the encoding, and we still love it. The obsession over format seems to only happen when we forget why we love music in the first place.
 
There are tons of bands wih passion that are unable to put out music due to "lack of interest," i.e. not enough fans buying their music because they can download their music for free. To claim that these bands lack passion for what they do is inane.

Guess I will *never* understand not paying for music I enjoy because I can pirate it easily and quickly.

This really confuses me. There is more music (well, at least Metal) being released now than ever before.

Full lengths per year according to Metal-Archives:

2014 so far - 3,146
2013 - 5,771
2012 - 5,314
2011 - 4,725
2010 - 4,244
2009 - 4,056
2008 - 3,728
2007 - 3,239

This does not include demos and EPs.

Who are these tons of bands that are unable to release music? Do they have fans who would fund them to begin with? Are they established acts with legions of downloading fans who are stripping their pockets?
 
Doesn't matter. Netflix is streaming in 4K now! If there's a market for it, the companies will obviously want in on the revenue stream, and the profit share.
Completely agreed. It's appears to be a niche market. There are customers who want it, but apparently not enough to force the major providers to provide it, especially since it would cost them. That said, the music industry is hardly known for getting ahead of what their customers want.

The point being, if there's money to be made, companies will find ways to make money. Passing on an opportunity to potentially make money is the exact opposite of greed. :)
I get where you're going, and you're correct on that end of it. But greed takes on many shades in Corporate America.

To be fair, there ARE a couple of ways to legally obtain FLACs. Bandcamp (as you pointed out) offers lossless downloads, and there are a few others if I'm not mistaken.
Not enough and not consistently. If I could, I would buy every single thing I could from BC.

Vote with your wallet, yes, but it doesn't make us entitled to pirate content we aren't entitled to own either.
Agree 100%.
 
This really confuses me. There is more music (well, at least Metal) being released now than ever before.

Full lengths per year according to Metal-Archives:

2014 so far - 3,146
2013 - 5,771
2012 - 5,314
2011 - 4,725
2010 - 4,244
2009 - 4,056
2008 - 3,728
2007 - 3,239

This does not include demos and EPs.

Who are these tons of bands that are unable to release music? Do they have fans who would fund them to begin with? Are they established acts with legions of downloading fans who are stripping their pockets?

I'd be very curious as to how many of those bands released full length albums and aren't just demo bands with cool artwork and 3 songs. Then I'd be curious as to how many of those bands track in studios with real instruments and aren't just programming drums and editing everything in pro tools because nobody can afford to do proper sessions in a real studio. Then, I'd be curious as to how many of these bands regularly tour. Indeed an assumption, but I'm willing to bet you'd get very different numbers - and of those numbers compared to bands from 10,20, 30 years ago, would be much smaller.

We can debate the details, but the reality is that the music industry has lost a ton of money, and while there are in fact bands that are willing to be hobby bands or basement bands or demo bands or whatever, let's not ignore the reality that many of us, including yourself, go to shows to see "professional" bands. A band like Morbid Angel for example, would almost certainly never exist in today's climate as a new band. They recorded records with real gear, at real studios, and did real touring to get where they are today.

When people say that they're afraid of bands going away, they're saying they're afraid of losing those kinds of bands. I'm not sure if you're okay with that, but it does concern me personally. I wouldn't like to see a scene full of hobby, "apartment" bands. I think it's cool to a degree, but it shouldn't be the standard.
 
I'd be very curious as to how many of those bands released full length albums and aren't just demo bands with cool artwork and 3 songs.
List does not include demos.

Then I'd be curious as to how many of those bands track in studios with real instruments and aren't just programming drums and editing everything in pro tools because nobody can afford to do proper sessions in a real studio.
Good music is good music regardless of where it's recorded. Especially considering Metal when many of the bands do not need or want the highest caliber recordings.

Then, I'd be curious as to how many of these bands regularly tour.
Would be interesting indeed, but this discussion is solely about album piracy. It's very easy to download an album. Not as easy to download a concert.

Point is, there is significant growth in the amount and availability of recorded music.

We can debate the details, but the reality is that the music industry has lost a ton of money, and while there are in fact bands that are willing to be hobby bands or basement bands or demo bands or whatever, let's not ignore the reality that many of us, including yourself, go to shows to see "professional" bands. A band like Morbid Angel for example, would almost certainly never exist in today's climate as a new band. They recorded records with real gear, at real studios, and did real touring to get where they are today.
Again, not talking about touring or shows. Talking about recorded music. Releases bought per year. Not concerts attended. That's a valid discussion but would take this thread on even more of a tangent than its already taken.


When people say that they're afraid of bands going away, they're saying they're afraid of losing those kinds of bands. I'm not sure if you're okay with that, but it does concern me personally. I wouldn't like to see a scene full of hobby, "apartment" bands. I think it's cool to a degree, but it shouldn't be the standard.
I'd absolutely prefer to see a scene full of people who make music for fun rather than people who make music for money.
 
Sorry, but I just can't get on board with any of this. It comes down to telling bands they should spend their time and money, and maybe - maybe - we'll throw them some pocket change.

Hmm? You're already on board with that, and always have been.

Unless you're secretly an 18th century duke, paying musicians in advance to compose music for you in a patronage system, or you've only been interested in music since Kickstarter came along, then you've always implicitly told bands that they should first spend their time and money on making music on spec, and then you'd decide whether to pay them or not. There are tens of thousands of musicians who you've effectively told "fuck you, I don't like the music you made, so I'm not buying it".

Then, as far as "pocket change" goes, unless you've been cutting $1000 checks directly to all the bands you like, pocket change is all you've ever been giving them. A dollar per CD split among 5 band members was never going to pay their rent.

Stupid musicians, trying to pay rent and eat food. Passion should sustain them.

Yes, any musician trying to sustain themselves on passion alone would be stupid. Luckily, most of them are not stupid, and long ago determined that music would not sustain them, and so they have regular jobs to take care of the food and rent part.

Not that that means they shouldn't be paid for their music, just that competition and luck has always meant that they shouldn't rely on that income for much. And there won't be a very dramatic difference in their overall income whether their music-income comes from CDs, downloads, or streaming.
 
List does not include demos.

Ah, whoops.

Good music is good music regardless of where it's recorded. Especially considering Metal when many of the bands do not need or want the highest caliber recordings.

It's true that good music will always be good music, but like I said, you'd never have an album that sounds anywhere near like Covenant or Angel Witch or Necroticism on protools with fake drums, over edited guitar takes, autotuned vocals (yes you can tune screaming vocals - it's done all the time) and not real takes with real gear in a real studio. The tone of a record is in fact significantly different when it's done on the cheap, as opposed to being recorded in a real studio.

Would be interesting indeed, but this discussion is solely about album piracy. It's very easy to download an album. Not as easy to download a concert.

Well first of all, it's not about piracy, it's about buying albums (or if we're to be more specific, consuming music legally). The people who are bringing up piracy in this discussion are really wrong here, because neither you, nor I, nor Zod, skyrefuge etc advocated pirating intellectual property so far in this whole thread. That turned into a discussion about the reality of the fact that the music industry has losing revenue considerably. And yeah, much of that is to piracy, but I suppose some of the folks here might hold that Spotify and other streaming services contribute to it too.

Now second of all, touring will always be relevant to a discussion on music industry, because both are focal points of revenue for the music business. If sales of recorded music die, you will see MUCH less touring for new bands because the incentivization for a label to support new acts will go down considerably. Hate to say it, but this is happening right now and it's very sad.

Point is, there is significant growth in the amount and availability of recorded music.

I don't disagree with you at all. However, I'm interested in the semantics brought up here. No accusations or anything, but a few people are saying this in this thread and I do think it's important to note that while recorded music is being put out, the "professionalism" of it all - so to speak, deserves inquiry.
 
I'd absolutely prefer to see a scene full of people who make music for fun rather than people who make music for money.

That's certainly your prerogative, but I must note that all of the world's greatest art has always been motivated by money, not by charity. The fact remains that if music became solely motivated by "fun" as opposed to money, we'd be seeing much fewer "professionally made" albums and almost no live shows.
 
I do think it's important to note that while recorded music is being put out, the "professionalism" of it all - so to speak, deserves inquiry.

Inquiry-executor here. In a random sample of 10 bands with 2013 releases, every single one was a full 4- or 5-member band with a band photo and a human drummer listed. To my ears, all but one (Bellator - 'The Dogarn Experience', available on Spotify!) sound as good as the median-level audio quality for a metal album in 1988.

But even if we go crazy and assume 60% of these bands did "unprofessional" recordings in the bass-player's bedroom, that would still leave us with at least 5 times the number of "professional" albums released released in 1988.

So we aren't losing "quality" releases, and looking at the chart, any correlation between metal album releases and music industry revenue is completely invisible:
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Inquiry-executor here. In a random sample of 10 bands with 2013 releases, every single one was a full 4- or 5-member band with a band photo and a human drummer listed. To my ears, all but one (Bellator - 'The Dogarn Experience', available on Spotify!) sound as good as the median-level audio quality for a metal album in 1988.

Doesn't matter if the band has 4-5 people. Even mid sized bands with labels these days don't have the kinds of budgets that existed a few years ago, so even bands with real drummers put out records with fake drums. It's a horrendously common thing even NOW. Bands can't afford to do real takes, so the mixing guy cuts and pastes in pro tools. In fact, if you listen to Heartwork vs Surgical Steel for example, it's pretty obvious which album was recorded with real gear without crazy editing with a band that had time to make a record, and a record that took a fraction of the time that has hyper edited everything.

This is why so many of these records sound like garbage when they get released on vinyl and it's such a joke that so many people buy them for anything other than the visual aspect. Listening to digitally recorded records on an analog format - it sounds awful!

And that's medium to BIG sized bands. Most of them cannot afford to make albums with real gear anymore. Let alone the bedroom bands that do everything on a macbook.

People got super buttflustered when Protest the Hero kickstarted a record asking for 100k. That's what recording on a real budget at a real studio with real gear costs. Most budgets these days are below 10k, especially for new bands. Imagine if there were NO budgets because labels made even LESS money?

As dcowboys said, and I totally 100% agree with him, good music's always going to be good music. I listen to electronic music, hip hop - Godflesh is one of my favorite bands. "Fake" stuff is fine and good by me if it's good. But it's going to be a sad day when studios shut down because they can't keep the lights on, producers have to work out of their homes, and records will never sound the same ever again - because rock (and metal) music budgets go down the tubes.


edit: in fact, this is such a big issue that even the Wall Street Journal ran a piece on it a while back (and Dave Grohl made a very awesome documentary called Sound City about it!)

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304591604579288531126033944
 
Hmm? You're already on board with that, and always have been.

Unless you're secretly an 18th century duke, paying musicians in advance to compose music for you in a patronage system, or you've only been interested in music since Kickstarter came along, then you've always implicitly told bands that they should first spend their time and money on making music on spec, and then you'd decide whether to pay them or not. There are tens of thousands of musicians who you've effectively told "fuck you, I don't like the music you made, so I'm not buying it".

Then, as far as "pocket change" goes, unless you've been cutting $1000 checks directly to all the bands you like, pocket change is all you've ever been giving them. A dollar per CD split among 5 band members was never going to pay their rent.



Yes, any musician trying to sustain themselves on passion alone would be stupid. Luckily, most of them are not stupid, and long ago determined that music would not sustain them, and so they have regular jobs to take care of the food and rent part.

Not that that means they shouldn't be paid for their music, just that competition and luck has always meant that they shouldn't rely on that income for much. And there won't be a very dramatic difference in their overall income whether their music-income comes from CDs, downloads, or streaming.

Come on, are you really going to equate the fractions of pennies Sabaton gets when you stream Heroes with what they get when I buy the album on CD?

The way you consume music is perfectly legal, but in the end I think it devalues the music and harms the artists.
 
...and records will never sound the same ever again - because rock (and metal) music budgets go down the tubes.

But records have never sounded the same. Albums (especially metal albums) recorded in the 70s don't sound like albums from the 80s don't sound like albums from the 90s.

As technology advances, it leads to new techniques, that lead to new sounds. Just as there is no objective thing such as "good music", there is no objective thing as "good production". Someone innovative (or just high, or poor, or trolling) records some music with a certain sound, people like it, and it springs a new trend, where other artists want to copy that sound.

As one example, in just Scandinavian metal alone, we had Skogsberg/Sunlight -> Pytten/Grieghallen -> Nordstrom/Fredman, but there are broader levels of sonic trends that cross all genres. So for every point in time, we have an idea of what "good" production is, but it's a different idea than what that meant 5 years before, and what it will mean 5 years after.

So if this bedroom-recording-sound becomes dominant, then that will just become "the sound of the 20-teens", and the studio-produced sounds of the previous decade or two will start sounding old and dated.

(and I'm not convinced that sound will become dominant anyway, or that it's anything demonstrably different than current in-studio recording where all those "tricks" are already being used anyway. You sort of contradict yourself when you decry the time-pressure in a studio that leads to these "tricks", since lack of time-pressure is a huge advantage of bedroom-recording.)

In other words, stop being such a stick-in-the-mud old man! :goggly:
 
Come on, are you really going to equate the fractions of pennies Sabaton gets when you stream Heroes with what they get when I buy the album on CD?

That wasn't really my plan, my point was just that very few musicians have ever been able to make a living from their music, regardless of the format of the day. We all throw them just pocket change, we always have, and changing formats have done little to change that.

But sure, I can get specific too. If I listen to the album on Spotify 25 times (which is just once a month for two years), Sabaton will get as much money from me as they will from you. If I listen to it 50 times, they'll get twice as much from me as from you, you cheap artist-hating bastard! :loco:

The way you consume music is perfectly legal, but in the end I think it devalues the music and harms the artists.

I'm sure a 19th century visitor to the symphony, upon seeing your practice of producing music from a shiny piece of plastic when the band isn't even there, would think your method devalues the music and harms the artists too. And you'd likely look at his strange old-fashioned ideas with the same bemusement at which I look at yours.
 
That's certainly your prerogative, but I must note that all of the world's greatest art has always been motivated by money, not by charity. The fact remains that if music became solely motivated by "fun" as opposed to money, we'd be seeing much fewer "professionally made" albums and almost no live shows.

We'll just have to agree to disagree here.

First, you really can't compare art made in the year 2014 to art in older times. A lot of times, art was previously reserved for the rich, the literate, etc. Now, creating art is easier and cheaper than ever. There are government programs that fund music education in school. Anyone who is interested in any type of art can type a few keywords into Youtube and instantly have high-quality instructional videos. If you'd like to compare the motivations of a couple teenage Scandinavian Slayer fans interested in loud guitars and Satan to that of someone being commissioned by the King of [Insert European Country Here] to write a piece, that's certainly your prerogative, but I'm not sure you'll find many who agree with you.

Second, do not confuse taking advantage of financial gain, or accepting it, as being motivated by it. There are plenty of artists who are motivated by the love of art or need to create who are damn good at it, and rightfully receive financial compensation for it. But the dollars are not the motivators.

Third, throughout history there have been numerous examples to discredit your point. Poe, Thoreau, Van Gogh, and on and on and on. You might argue that these are exceptions to the rule, but I believe there are more than enough to discredit your claim.

Fourth, regarding current art, there really hasn't been enough time passed to note 'greatest' or what have you. There isn't enough historical perspective.

And lastly, back to the genre of music being discussed, Metal. Is great Metal motivated by money? I do not believe that 14-year old Ihsahn had dollar signs in his eyes when penning "I Am the Black Wizards". Dead did not bury his clothes with dead animals in hopes of being noticed by any Norwegian tabloids. "Show No Mercy" wasn't a cash-grab. "Abominations of Desolation" a plan to fund Azagthoth's college education. I'd like to see your list of greatest Metal records that were motivated by money, to be honest. This can be very easily expanded to other genres of music, too.
 
But presumably they have data (and the music industry remembers the failure of SACD and DVD-Audio) revealing that once the quality reaches a certain point, the vast majority of consumers just don't give a shit, and won't pay any more money.
As I said earlier, I acknowledge that the primary driver for this is the size of the market segment. Still, the reason they don't just allow the option of download FLAC, is they don't want to own the increased IT costs.

As for changing formats in the future: in a world where everyone is already moving away from downloads and over to streaming, it shows that consumers are caring less and less about "ownership" of music at all, so they most definitely don't care about the particular format that music is encoded in.
Technology changes and advances rapidly. To think we discovered the final file format for music in 1995 is highly, highly unlikely.

All that music lovers really want is to be able to push a button and hear a song that makes them happy.
Had you said "most people", than yes, that would be true. If we're talking "music lovers", not true. Many metal review sites contain dynamic range ratings these days. Look at the vinyl revival. Look at our fellow board member's refusal to abandon a physical medium. People care about format.

The vast majority of times when music touches our emotions, we're in some place (a concert, a car, a club, etc.) where the environment "degrades" the audio far more than the encoding, and we still love it. The obsession over format seems to only happen when we forget why we love music in the first place.
While an aspect of that is true, don't discount that people very quickly want an improved sound. The wife and I have been car shopping. One of the first (probably, the first) and most frequent upgrade option offered by car manufacturers is an upgraded stereo. Go to any gym and you can see the massive transition from free Apple iBuds to premium headphones. To see people wearing $100 - $300 headphones at the gym is absolutely commonplace. People will always care about how their music sounds.
 
I'm sure a 19th century visitor to the symphony, upon seeing your practice of producing music from a shiny piece of plastic when the band isn't even there, would think your method devalues the music and harms the artists too. And you'd likely look at his strange old-fashioned ideas with the same bemusement at which I look at yours.

Or you could skip your hypothetical time machine and ask the members of your favorite current bands what they think.