How much £££ to be a step up from DFH

[mattisfrommars]

I've been using ezDrummer/DFH to create drum sounds for my band and would eventually like to record real drums instead of just using sampled ones, especially as I want to make some money recording other bands who wont have/want MIDI files of their drums ready. I record with logic.

The room is (unfortunately) not upgradable unless I get some serious money and invest in studio space, we practice in a pretty small space with home-made bass traps and cardboard on the walls. But if we were recording we could probably hijack a living room with hard wood floors for a day or two.

I'm currently using an edirol fa-101 firewire interface which has 2 phantom power inputs and 6 line level inputs on the back. Obviously, shoving microphones into line level inputs without a preamp is a big no-no so I'll be upgrading to the profire2626 at some point.

Also, I'll obviously need microphones. At the minute the only really usable one I have is an old SM58 so I'm considering either the samson 7 piece drum set (£200 new) or the red5 7 piece set (£150 new or £175 for an 8 piece set)

Ok, after the ramble here are my questions:
Will the sound card I have be sufficient to work well until I get the profire?
Will either of these microphone sets actually sound better than using DFH? (bearing in mind I have verrry limited experience micing up a kit from college, but I'm eager to learn!) Or is it best to wait for a few more paydays and get some better quality microphones and postpone recording drums for a few months?
If I buy the drum mic set and then buy better microphones will I still use any of the mics from the set or will they become obsolete as soon as I start investing more cash?

Thanks for reading my long ramble!

 

[Line666]

Check ebay for the samson kit, I was gonna get the Red5 one as well, but then I snagged the 7kit for just over £100 and I'm pretty damn happy with that purchase. The mics are pretty good for purpose, but don't forget that most of your drum sound has gotta be worked out in the room - proper tuning, fresh skins and decent drums to begin with - otherwise it'll sound bad no matter what microphone you're using.

Your sound card definitely won't be sufficient for drum micing, not if you want to do it properly.

For micing and other tips see here:

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/production-tips/217656-acoustic-drums-metal-guide.html

It will sound better than DFH if you do it properly (much more natural to boot), here's a good drumsound using just the 7kit:

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/...rl-sabian-recorded-7-mics-opinions-tipps.html

 

[mattisfrommars]

Ok, I'm going to get the 2626 and the 8 mic samson set ASAP i think, or would I be better off getting the 7 mic set and a non-samson microphone?

 

[Jarkko Mattheiszen]

Also, be sure to read through this article: http://faderwear.com/guides/aggressivedrums/

Some excellent stuff in there and covers the basics pretty well.

 

[Trevoire520]

Personally I think you would be better off getting a set of triggers and a decent pair of overheads to start off with, you can run your overheads into the mic inputs and triggers into the line inputs. Then you can upgrade your interface and mic's later on as you get more cash.

I mean the Red 5 stuff is ok for the money, I've owned them, used them and sold them. The samson stuff has always seemed like cheap plastic shit to me, though apparently the kick mic is pretty decent. But you're going to end up selling either set later on down the line because it really is low end stuff, so essentially it's money wasted.

Personally I would REALLY recommend you go on ebay and get a nice pair of overheads from a decent manufacturer like SE Electronics, Audio Technica, Rode, AKG, M Audio, Oktava, Studio Projects. With the current recession there are some serious bargains on ebay at the moment so you should be able to get a good deal. Pick up a set of drum triggers (DDrum Pro or Roland, not DDRum Redshots) to trigger samples from. The drums you capture in the overheads and the real cymbals will give you a more real feel to your drum tracks even though you're still using samples.

Then as you get more cash you can buy new mic's for snare/kick/toms. For snare or toms Shure SM57's or Audix I5's are cheap and are used on plenty of commercial records (though never buy SM57's off ebay)

Just remember, he who buy's cheap, buys twice. You'll save money in the long run by getting quality stuff from the start.

 

[mattisfrommars]

Aha, every time I make a decision I feel like a complete ass because it's seems obvious when someone points out an alternative.

Ok, first thing on the agenda is the 2626 and learning pro tools (although the limited track count is pretty off-putting). And then I think I'm gonna go for a pair of used Rode NT5s if i can find em on eBay.

 

[Trevoire520]

You'd be surprised how little the track count will effect you. Lets look at an example:

Overheads (stereo)
Hat/Crash1
Crash2/Ride
Snare Top
Snare Bottom
Tom 1
Tom 2
Tom 3
Tom 4
Kick
Room
Snare Trigger
Tom 1 Trigger
Tom 2 Trigger
Tom 3 Trigger
Tom 4 Trigger
Kick Trigger
Snare Replaced
Tom 1 Replaced
Tom 2 Replaced
Tom 3 Replaced
Tom 4 Replaced
Kick Replaced
Bass
Rhyth Guitar 1
Rhyth Guitar 2
Rhyth Guitar 3
Rhyth Guitar 4
Clean Guitar 1
Clean Guitar 2
Lead Guitar 1
Lead Guitar 2
Vocal 1
Vocal 2
Vocal 3
Vocal 4
Strings/Keys
Subdrops

Thats a fairly extensive session and it's still only 38 tracks. Of course you might have guitar DI's but they are only needed for reamping.

Personally I find the input limit much more annoying but even that's not too bad. I can still mic up a 6 piece drumkit without much bother (just have to drop a room mic)

 

[mattisfrommars]

Personally I find the input limit much more annoying but even that's not too bad. I can still mic up a 6 piece drumkit without much bother (just have to drop a room mic)

How many tracks can you record simultaneously on PTMP?

 

[TheDriller]

How many tracks can you record simultaneously on PTMP?

18

I think

 

[MetalJonesy]

im a big fan of the Samson S Kit for its price!! the kick mic is cracking and the SDCs are really cool too!

 

[Trevoire520]

18

I think

Yep

 

[mattisfrommars]

After reading http://recordinghacks.com/2010/04/03/drum-overhead-microphone-technique-comparison/ I'm more inclined to go with Trevoire's suggestion of buying a good quality matched pair of condensers and then going with samples for the rest of the kit to augment the OHs. At least til I can afford the Samson kit 5 as well for dynamic close mics to beef up the sound

 

[ParsonsMatt]

...

Thats a fairly extensive session and it's still only 38 tracks.

1 track for strings/keys?

Mmm..

 

[Trevoire520]

After reading http://recordinghacks.com/2010/04/03/drum-overhead-microphone-technique-comparison/ I'm more inclined to go with Trevoire's suggestion of buying a good quality matched pair of condensers and then going with samples for the rest of the kit to augment the OHs. At least til I can afford the Samson kit 5 as well for dynamic close mics to beef up the sound

I stopped reading after I read he was doing coincident omni's. Pointless much?

1 track for strings/keys?

Mmm..

Well it depends on how much you're using stuff like that in your productions. Alot of bands don't use any keys/strings etc at all.

For my band I get my strings parts sorted using midi and aux tracks and then bounce the whole lot down to a stereo track.
If you want to tweak everything all the way through the mix then you can just stick to the midi & aux tracks as you're not using any of your audio tracks anyway.