How to get loud master?

[bryan_kilco]

While I've been searching and researching on this topic, I still don't know a whole heck of a lot about it. Is it absolutely necessary to need external gear to achieve a "comercial" level master? Or does it lie within expensive plug-ins?

It seems most people are only using slight EQ, Comp, and limiter in their Master chain, and I feel I have a pretty loud master, then come in here and listen to some of your guys mixes (not even mastered) and they blow mine ("home mastered") right away.

 

[AdamWathan]

Read this thread: http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/production-tips/278894-getting-your-loudness.html

Then buy Ozone

 

[paladin shredder]

g-clip is sometimes the only thing i'll have on my master bus. The most important thing is making sure the mix has a good balance, and that no particular frequency range is eating up your headroom.

 

[bryan_kilco]

Read this thread: http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/production-tips/278894-getting-your-loudness.html

Then buy Ozone

so is this Ozone really that worth it? It does look interesting....

 

[reg3n]

this http://www.sonnoxplugins.com/pub/plugins/products/limiter.htm
Make your mix as loud as possible trying to avoid high peaks as much as possible make it "stable", then put a transparent limiter like this, and you're all set! well... apart from a millon more things you've got to do of course :]

 

[AdamWathan]

so is this Ozone really that worth it? It does look interesting....

Andy Sneap used just Ozone to master the new Dimmu Borgir and Sturgis has used it a lot as well, it's a fantastic plug and definitely pro-level stuff at a really reasonable price!

 

[RiF]

I don't want to discourage you, but a loud master doesn't come from the mastering gear (be it plugins or hardware). The maximum loudness potential lies in the mix. If the mix is good, any limiter will get it up to "commercial loudness".
This GS thread might be a good read as well.
If I don't get my mixes to full loudness, I know that I need to go back to the mix.

 

[bryan_kilco]

thank you all! I think most of my problem lies in my low end and maybe my mid-high end.....I played around in Mono and EQ'd a bit to bring a bit more life to the mix, then switched to Stereo and it definitely made a big difference, especially in the wideness of the guitars.

I have a question though....say, in Reaper, your Master meter at 0.0 dB and above by, I think 6 dB(?) is a yellow or tan area in the meter, before the red....

Now, when trying to achieve maximum loudness, should I still be keeping that meter below 0.0 dB, even though my limiter is in action? Im sorry if this isn't making sense....I just wasnt sure if the little tan/yellow area in the meter was representing headroom or if it was a "bad" sign.

 

[reg3n]

you should aim your peaks to -12db, and if anything sounds too loud compared to the other tracks, get it lower, don't rise everything else, you'll notice your limiter/maximizer does a better job like that and your stuff sounds REALLY loud.

Track "colder" , but don't over-do, as with everything, or you'll lose "real" signal too.

You really should read this thread http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/production-tips/278894-getting-your-loudness.html , the guys already pointed that out.

 

[bryan_kilco]

Yeah, I read thru a few of those threads.

What I meant wasnt more along the lines of the mix before the master....but rather during the master stage. I track at -18db, and usually keep everything around there....and my master will peak around -12 like you said....but once I add slight comp and then start trying to lower the threshold on the limiter, I want to be as close to 0 db as possible. My question is....if my limiter is set to say -0.3 db ceiling, and I'm turning the threshold down, my Master meter will start going over 0.0 db but there's an area before the meter will turn red. I can obviously hear clipping once it's in the red, but not so much in the tan/orange/yellow area. I just wasnt sure if I was trying to get TOO much out of it.

 

[RiF]

I track at -18db, and usually keep everything around there....and my master will peak around -12 like you said

Nice!

....but once I add slight comp and then start trying to lower the threshold on the limiter, I want to be as close to 0 db as possible.

If you want "commercial loudness", you don't want to be as close 0 dB as possible, you want to be at 0 dB as OFTEN as possible!

My question is....if my limiter is set to say -0.3 db ceiling, and I'm turning the threshold down, my Master meter will start going over 0.0 db (..)

Unless you have a crap limiter, if the ceiling is at -0.3 dB, you'll NEVER go above that. The limiter is taking care of it.

(..) but there's an area before the meter will turn red. I can obviously hear clipping once it's in the red, but not so much in the tan/orange/yellow area. I just wasnt sure if I was trying to get TOO much out f it.

Back to the point ;-).
How hard you can limit a mix depends on the mix. Every mix distorts when going thru a brickwall limiter, but the question is if the mix is still halfway enjoyable after brickwalling it to death (most commercial mixes aren't).
My rule of thumb is, that I should be able to shave of some 4 dB with a brickwall limiter from the mix without destroying it. If it then get's in the area of "commercial loudness", I am very happy.

 

[waltz mastering]

My question is....if my limiter is set to say -0.3 db ceiling, and I'm turning the threshold down, my Master meter will start going over 0.0 db but there's an area before the meter will turn red. I can obviously hear clipping once it's in the red, but not so much in the tan/orange/yellow area. I just wasnt sure if I was trying to get TOO much out of it.

Getting the frequency balance right in the mix is paramount to getting a master that translates to loud and clean. Eq is your friend and rms numbers usually don't mean to much.

 

[AdamWathan]

Getting the frequency balance right in the mix is paramount to getting a master that translates to loud and clean. Eq is your friend and rms numbers usually don't mean to much.

Definitely, perceived loudness is a much much different beast than RMS... The only reason RMS can be compared on most bigger name mixes is because they all know how to balance the mix properly in the first place. I can hit -7db RMS on something that still sounds quieter than a Sneap mix at -10db because the frequency balance is all wrong.

 

[Zozobra]

Getting the frequency balance right in the mix is paramount to getting a master that translates to loud and clean. Eq is your friend and rms numbers usually don't mean to much.

Truth.

Your master buss will clip at ANY frequency over its peak.

But your ears dont percieve them all as equally loud.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher-Munson_effect

You hear mids and high mids (especially high mids) preferentially. So maybe you make a mix thats a little light in the mids and high mids and has a tonne of low end thats stopping you from getting it any louder. But you still have headroom in higher frequencies, which seem louder to your ears, so use it.

Its all about the right ballance. No one range overwhelming any other.

 

[pikachu69]

Can you post a clip of a track your having fun with?

 

[Trevoire520]

I really like FGX for getting shit loud without sounding squashed. Getting the frequency balance of your mix right is clearly the most important part of the whole process though.

 

[bryan_kilco]

Can you post a clip of a track your having fun with?

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6443251/Mix 1 MP3.mp3

Just a little 1:00 thing I made the other day...nothing perfect, though I did take some time to sorta get the parts tight, but I was mainly just messing around. I really can't seem to get everything bright and big sounding without dumping loads of EQ (my high end clarity just doesnt seem to be there?).

Also.....tinkering around with automation and I wasn't quite sure how to set the EQ so the boost wasnt so high in the beginning and only happened at the break where I wanted it....so I think it may be a tad bass-heavy because of that.

Any pointers would be very much appreciated.

EDIT: and this is after the "mastering".

 

[pikachu69]

Hey man thanks for posting.
After listening to your clip I would have to agree with the above comments about a 'balanced' frequency range being the key to a loud master.
Take a look at the frequency curve of your track:

Now, compare this to a track taken from a 2010 release mixed by someone on this forum whom we all love, no need to name the track I think that may derail your thread.

The bright solid lines are your track, the lighter ones in the back is the reference track.
Yours have a very mid scooped thing going on, so your mix is predominantly bass and treble. Midrange is the main area of focus for our hearing range and with so much of it 'gone' it seems well, quieter.
I think the thing I try to keep in mind is the end user and their playback systems. Most home stereos and ipods etc will only have a typical 'rock' setting with the classic shape. If you do that to a mix that already has that shape then it will seem to not translate well and will cause ear fatigue very quickly.
as you can see with the reference track, the frequency plot is very flat, thus really allowing the playback source to use its own eq as intended.
Thats why the reference mix will sound good on any playback source.

I think you may need to use far more high and low pass filters when mixing, though, rather than pumping mids into it, tame the extreme lows and highs and this will bring the mids back into focus and give you more apparent loudness in your master.

I hope this helps, just my 2 cents .

Cheers.

 

[philby82]

Hey Pikachu, could you please tell me what that plug is that you used to do that frequency analysis?

 

[bryan_kilco]

Pikachu, thanks for that! And yes - what are some good plugs to do something like you did there? I use an analyzer in Reaper but I'm not sure if it's quite the right thing....

What's weird is, I usually crank the mids/high mids in my guitars in the mix a few db to try and bring them to life a bit, and it seems odd that my waveform is so mid-scooped. I will take this into consideration and continue tweaking!