How Usury Conquers the World

[Norsemaiden]

[ame]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279&hl=en[/ame]


I found the above video link "Money as Debt" in an article in The Times

http://timesonline.typepad.com/environment/2008/09/limits-to-growt.html

This is an incredibly informative and fascinating video - full of essential practical and philosophical revelations.

Please do watch it and say what you think.

 

[razoredge]

There is alot of stuff there that pretty much goes in circles... no pun intended. About all I can say is for the longest time I thought that money was created by the government. I have been aware that gold did not cover the money printed for along time now and have never cared. Gold means nothing to me and its only value in my opinion is for making jewelery and should be brought to that level. I have one gold painted car and its perty enough form me, that is the value I place on gold.

Debt - I have lived a life relatively debt free, a few car loans, some small business loans, never have had a credit card and bought my house which is paid in full on a owner held mortage of 10% which I quickly paid off when my economy was great, before productivity as a value was removed from my country. I currently have one car loan, our first new car and the only reason we went for it was it was during an interest free General Motors selling campaign. Still a car is a money pit, just a necessity to get to work, a damn expensive one in current times but every last dime goes toward the principle for me currently. I have no interest going out anywhere. Of course my interest on my savings is something pathetic like .45%, something unheard of in previous decades.

As for money, its what I am paid in and I only spend that which I have in my posession so I have never really played the game, only maybe around $6-8000 in total interest over the decades.

As for the government debts, I agree totally with this, they should tell the banks "fuck off" and just write their own money for what they need to get done and what is needed to make payrolls. Its all about work, we need a bridge, make the money to buy the materials and pay the labor force, same for say fighter jets, military payroll, whatever.

In the case of my country (U.S.) fuck all other countries, we have the natural resources to do just fine and be self sufficient if they feel we need to back up any paper value with anything... we dont need to do business with them. Most would flounder without our consumerism of their products and that would be a joyous event to watch. I've always been attraced more to a fair barter system than that of Kings and Queens who produce NOTHING

 

[Blowtus]

very, very interesting. I thought the suggestion that money shouldn't be created to stimulate growth a little enviro-biased - if it is created at the same exponential rate that technology improves there would seem to be no issue, but that may just be my very limited understanding of the ideas speaking.

A critique of it I found here - http://studimonetari.org/articoli/moneyasdebtcritique.html - suggested that an outcome of the ideas in the doco would be a tax-free society. Government creates the money it needs, with the corresponding increases in productivity through tech and infrastructure spending taking care of inflation. I wish I had a decent understanding of it all so I could shake this feeling I'm being taken in by left wing conspiracy stuff

 

[Norsemaiden]

very, very interesting. I thought the suggestion that money shouldn't be created to stimulate growth a little enviro-biased - if it is created at the same exponential rate that technology improves there would seem to be no issue, but that may just be my very limited understanding of the ideas speaking.

A critique of it I found here - http://studimonetari.org/articoli/moneyasdebtcritique.html - suggested that an outcome of the ideas in the doco would be a tax-free society. Government creates the money it needs, with the corresponding increases in productivity through tech and infrastructure spending taking care of inflation. I wish I had a decent understanding of it all so I could shake this feeling I'm being taken in by left wing conspiracy stuff

Don't you worry - Adolf Hitler would be 100% behind this documentary. He knew the goldsmiths very well. His decision to break free from the international banksters and for Germany to print it's own currency and have nationalised banks is one major reason for WWII.

And did you know that Islamic states have always forbade usury? Terror indeed! Bomb Iran!

“Those who devour usury will not stand except as stand one whom the Evil one by his touch hath driven to madness. That is because they say: “Trade is like usury,” but God hath permitted trade and forbidden usury. Those who after receiving direction from their Lord, desist, shall be pardoned for the past; their case is for God (to judge); but those who repeat (the offence) are companions of the Fire: They will abide therein (for ever).”
- Quran Verse 2:275 (Chapter Al-Baqara)

http://indianmuslims.in/why-riba-usury-is-haram-in-islam/

I hope all who watch the video pay attention to the part that expains how, if you allow usury, the money lenders will eventually have all the money, and all the valuable property as well. It is stunning! And of course they buy our governments.

On this issue you find a common cause between Islam, Nazism and Communism - with the exceptions only being either someone benefiting from usury or an ignorant sucker.

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

Say I were to loan an ounce of gold to someone. What incentive would I have to do so except for the anticipation of the return of a greater quantity of gold? Likewise for silver or fiat currency.

Interest is necessitated on account that debtors are humans, i.e. they have the uncanny tendency to do stupid things with money or act with malfeasance and defraud, both human attributes. Thus, all other things being equal, if 3% of my gold is defaulted upon, I would have to charge approximately 3% interest just to break even.

That said, if interest is prohibited, there will be no loans, and one of two things will happen. Either those who require credit will do without, letting the economy suffer, or government will simply print money on its own, which will cause rampant inflation as government throughout history has been careless with its currency. From the Ming Dynasty to the more recent example of Zimbabwe, any time (un)elected officials have access to printing presses, they act irresponsibly. That said, 'everything is worth what the buyer will pay for it'; if they wish to use gold, let them use gold; if they wish to use silver, let them use silver, if they wish to use warehouse certificates for wheat even, let the marketplace decide the yardstick with which it arbitrates.

That said, in lieu of the 'goldsmith' model, one would simply have to demand a certificate certifying that in his safe rests a quantity of gold with one's name on it. If there is not, that is called 'fraud'. If one wishes to have one's gold lent out, one is certainly entitled to a cut of the interest, otherwise what is preventing one from keeping it safe for one's own use, as surely that is safer than if it is lent out?

At any given time, I keep no less than 10 oz. gold and 500 oz. silver stored in my residence, automobile, or both, since I trust in 5'000 years of precious metals as a store of value much more than in any country's fiscal restraint. Hitler would have not liked this, as he prohibited ownership of more than 5gr gold, for use only on rings...tyrants dislike precious metals as their control over the economy ensures control over the people.

Finally, I do not loan for less than 20% compound interest, what with the credit crunch and all. It used to be 15%

 

[Norsemaiden]

The practice of making money out of money just so happens to have the effect of ruining the world. This is why it has historically been prohibited or at least heavily limited.

see the time-line on this page

http://www.affil.org/consumer_rsc/usury.php

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

One would not enter into such a contract if if it was not beneficial for one's own purposes. Let those who wish to pay interest pay it, but those that do not wish to can do without as we have no obligation to lend money unto them at a loss.

If it ruins things, why do so many people accede to usury?

(Disclaimer: though he does not partake in usury, he makes money off money on a daily basis.)

 

[Norsemaiden]

One would not enter into such a contract if if it was not beneficial for one's own purposes. Let those who wish to pay interest pay it, but those that do not wish to can do without as we have no obligation to lend money unto them at a loss.

If it ruins things, why do so many people accede to usury?

(Disclaimer: though he does not partake in usury, he makes money off money on a daily basis.)

But really it should be just as acceptable to execute all usurers shouldn't it? If it's beneficial to do that after all?

 

[razoredge]

yes that was a real idiotic thing to say being as no one can get anywhere due to the economic structure without borrowing money. This idiot posts as if people can get a house or a car without a loan. The entire system of credit has really made a mess and feeds strongly into inflated pricing. So typical today to think in payments rather than value of what is being bought.

 

[Fenrisúlfr]

But really it should be just as acceptable to execute all usurers shouldn't it? If it's beneficial to do that after all?

It would not be beneficial, as if they acquired capital, they know best how to use it. Idiots do stupid things with money, so a fool and his money are soon parted. One who is rich may be said to have demonstrated his financial sense (until he demonstrates otherwise), and thus knows best how to allocate capital. Thus, a fool would not invest his money, but a rich one would, the latter creating jobs, infrastructure, research, progress.

That said, I benefit from usury even though I pay interest, precisely because I know best how to allocate capital. The one who lends me money benefits because he is compensated for the use of his money, and I am compensated for the interest because I can get a higher return on capital than the interest charged.

Say I have a $20K margin account and know a security shall move higher. I borrow $180K against it and use $200K to buy said security, of course with a stop-loss so that my account does not go to 0 should the margin be called. At 10x leverage, an 8% move yields an 80% return on capital. Even if my interest rate is 8%/yr, in the time I have used said margin, the rate is negligible.

Additionally, it is the peasantry who time and again have demonstrated a lack of financial sense. You do stupid things with money, yet cry 'usury' when you are made to reap what you sow. It is also your lack of knowledge of the financial system that allows for simplistic proposals without regard for their consequences. Why should we not execute debtors in a vicious manner for our own amusement as the Romans executed the silly xians, or throw them into prison where they must pay 6d for a crust of bread and 1/- to rent a flea-infested pillow for the evening? It would be beneficial for us, but to what end?

Say your wish was granted, and everyone who loaned money at interest was executed, and interest rates were set at 0%. No loans...no expansion of business or access to capital to make necessary infrastructure repairs...you peasants return to the Middle Ages within a few generations. Perhaps that is where perfidious ones as yourself belong, shovelling dirt and dying at twenty-five from your seventh birth. We the rich, in our quest for profit, have built this modern world for your enjoyment and expect comparatively-little in return, but upon hearing such things, I may be of the view that we must become blood-thirsty in the interests of self-preservation, as of course IQ correlates to income and you should know how bell-curves work.

You say eat the rich, I now reply with Swift's Modest Proposal, and not in jest.

 

[razoredge]

when a business is expanded on its own profit works far better than one that is circle jerked by stupid investors that know nothing. Its just a slower but more solid process. However when puppet masters become pissed off because someone is not playing the game they destroy them by a choke hold. The population lends money to investors everyday but recieve nothing in return other than closed down or run down businesses, exported jobs, products and utilities inflated beyond the increase of labor. Money disappears all the time but where did it really go ? Shistered by the gamers on Wall Street. All through actions that are illegal elsewhere in the real world.

 

[Iron Bug]

banks don't sell money. they sell time. the only thing we can buy is time. a person can make whatever he needs himself, but it would take too long. rapidly evolving technologies caused differentiation in industry, demanding some kind of universal measure for exchange. so human race invented money as equivalent of work, i.e. time, wasted for manufacturing some goods. and still, when you take a loan in bank that just means that you plan to got some profit from this bargain (otherwise you're just fool). when your deposits are stored in bank and you get your percents that means you loan money to somebody else for development of their business and so you get a part of their product.
ppl often underappreciate the importance of such institutions as banking system. while it's impossible in modern society to live in other way.
note, I said 'society'. because living apart from society makes it possible to get rid of money, too. it's a difficult way. but I knew some ppl that lived like that. so, if you are not satisfied with loans and percents you always may leave to a forest and live there for free.