I love bootleggers!
- Thread starter Harvester
- Start date
J-Dubya 777
It NEVER ends
They haven't started the cleanup in the attic yet. I could make him a care package, perhaps do a CIIC logo in coon turds? I'll use ones with lots of corn & seeds!
PurpleCrayonWriter
Just a Kid at Heart
Please give me more credit than that. I know the difference between a Metallica and a Circus Maximus. I'm talking about a principle, here. I've seen very small jam bands like Particle (years ago when they just started) do this. How much "dough" is needed to take the soundboard CD, duplicate it, and hand it to fans in a plain cardboard sleeve with a band sticker slapped on it? Charge them ten bucks and you likely make a 50-60%% profit with each sale -- on something you wouldn't have made any money on at all.
I also know the difference between the set list for a jam band and one for a prog/power metal band. Again, I'm talking about a principle.
One of the rules of thumb in marketing is to see what works and then duplicate it. This is especially true in direct marketing. Look around to see what others are doing. If it works, use it. If it doesn't, don't.
The jam-band approach works. Why? Partly because their sets change every night. Partly because they're known for taking risks on stage and their fans want to see them go out on a limb. Partly because fans know they can pay $10 after the show to get the show handed to them, in glorious soundboard (albeit un-mixed) quality -- the holy grail of traders.
So if I was in a prog/power metal band, I'd look at that business model and see what I could do to emulate it. If that meant taking more "risks" on stage, mixing up set lists, experimenting...I'd do it.
As far as selling the material after the show is over (after all the fans have gone home and the band has moved on) goes, how much does it cost to offer down-loadable shows to fans, charging them $10 to $20 per show? Next to nothing, frankly. Web site bandwidth. Maybe a webmaster to watch over it all. An electronic way -- perhaps PayPal -- to collect money. You make the show available on your web site, you make artwork available as a pdf, and -- bingo! -- you have a profit center second to none. If you do that for every show, stockpiling a list of down-loadable performances over time, you have a source of income that could last well beyond the band's existence, just sitting there...waiting to be tapped. Such a venture would likely excite the hell out of fans, generate tremendous word-of-mouth advertising, and increase the visibility of bands. It's possible that the first few prog/power metal bands that did this would gain a lot of new fans and make fistfuls of money.
Keep in mind, one of the reasons why this business model works for bands like Pearl Jam -- or jam bands like Phish, or Ratdog -- is because true fans want it all. They'll buy anything and everything just to have their favorite band on CD (or tape), in their hands, to enjoy, study, talk about, and refer to for the rest of their lives.
I did this with the Grateful Dead's music -- years ago, before the Live Archive people pulled all of the Grateful Dead's down-loadable soundboard recordings off their site (at the request of Weir and Hart, I think). It was legally there, and even -- according to Phil Lesh -- approved of by the band. So I made use of it. I now have on my hard drive sound board recordings of entire decades of the Dead's shows: 1969, 1970, 1972, 1977 -- you name it. There's something incredibly cool about being able to look at a book that lists all the gigs they played and to be able to go to your archive and pull out that very show to hear for yourself. I can almost recreate the Dead's 1970 tour, city by city. I also did this with Pearl Jam back in 2000 or 2001 when they released their entire word-wide tour on CD to thwart the bootleggers. I bought all of their discs. Every single one. For their entire world-tour. It's probably worth a fortune now. But that's beside the point. The point is, I dug PJ enough to want to hear, say, 57 versions of "Elderly Woman Behind the Counter in a Small Town," my favorite PJ song. I have in my hand right now PJ's Detroit Michigan, October 7, 2000 CD. It's a plain white cardboard sleeve of a show I attended. It didn't cost much. But I was freakin' there, man. So, to me, it's priceless.
That's why the business model works. Fans who are really into the music want to be able to hear their favorite bands, warts and all.
That's the market bootleggers serve.
So, I only suggested this idea as a way to (1) stop bootleggers, (2) return money back into the hands of the bands, (3) allow Glenn a cut of the proceeds as well for all shows recorded and sold during his festival.
If my idea sucks, no worries. I just tossed it out there. I don't like bootleggers. But I do like to see bands make a shit-load of money. And I like to hear shows I attended months or years after I was there. So I'm a fan of the business model shared by Pearl Jam, Phish, Particle, the Dead, and other bands.
But, I've taken up enough of everyone's time with my drivel. Thanks for reading this!
Cheers,
Bill
urinalcakemix
man who plays drum
Yes, yes I AM comparing these bands. Why? Simple. Both are niche scenes. Both have passionate fans, and both do not get the proper mainstream push that they deserve. Bonnaroo in Tennessee as well as a few other festivals in the US are on par with the euro metal scene come summer time, as there are MANY open field festys in the US featuring many of these jam artists.
Both scenes are very musical, and offer infectious, addicting types of music for people who become enthralled with more than just the music but the lifestyle as well. While the jam bands are less precise overall- both scenes are Very technical, and have extreme levels of musicianship (in most cases- theres exceptions to both sides). Other than raw sound, the only differences I see in these cultures/genres is that Metal is WAY oversaturated, and the jam scene seems to be undersaturated with your B and C level bands-- After the top "A" Level jam bands, there seems to be a significant dropoff in talent, draw, and recognition, whereas it seems Everyones in a metal band these days on the local, semi-national and "B" and "C" level.
The tape trading has helped propel a number of bands into their success, where illegal downloading has brought metal back to life.
Also, let it also be known that PHISH is the king of setlists. Not Pearl Jam. I will also go as far as to say Phish is absolutely the most progressive band to come out in the last 20-25 years period, in terms of technicality, musicianship, song-writing, mixing up their sets, and their ability to dabble in several different styles. I will argue til the day I die that they are more progressive than Dream Theater. But thats a completely different argument altogether.
I don't really know what my point is, but I support tape trading, and I think it has a purpose, and I believe that if used effectively that it can be a very useful tool for bands to gain free exposure and reach out to fans that they never would have heard of otherwise, and get them to come out to a show and buy a T-shirt, which always has been where bands make their money.
AeonicSlumber
srs
- Aug 14, 2008
- 4,893
- 0
- 36
I just explained to you why this doesn't and won't work. Nobody would buy 50 crappily recorded unofficial live bootlegs from a startup band, especially now when sales are so low. Therefore it's too much of an expense for the band.
lol no.
It's not that it sucks, it's just that it won't work, nor is it anything revolutionary. There are sites like CDBaby.com that allow you to pay a small fee to get your music on iTunes, Napster, Spotify etc. It's just that nobody is going to buy cheaply recorded bootlegs if your band has a small following and no name.
PurpleCrayonWriter
Just a Kid at Heart
Man, I wish I could be as sure of myself as you seem to be.
I never wrote anything about "crappily recorded." Soundboard recordings are excellent and often preserve an accurate representation of the night's gig. The bootlegger Glenn posted about has a crappy recording. A soundboard recording from the band would not be.
Did I write anything about a "startup band"?
I tried to explain that there's very little cost involved. You dupe the soundboard CD, shove it into a cardboard sleeve, and sell it for $10 (or $8 or $15 -- I don't know) to fans who paid for it the night of the gig. How much expense can there be? How is a band out much of anything? Especially to make it available as a download on their web site? I don't see the enormous, prohibitive cost you write about.
I didn't write anything about it being "revolutionary." In fact, I specifically wrote that it would be based on an already-existing (successful) business model.
I'm probably not explaining myself clearly. You seem to think I'm talking about Tom's Garage Band that plays semi-weekly for neighborhood kids.
Do you honestly think a band like Pagan's Mind or Circus Maximus or Crimson Glory or After Forever or Leaves' Eyes or [fill in the blank with virtually any PPUSA band] are bands with "a small following and no name"? They play to thousands during their tours.
I would pay top dollar to hear After Forever's PPUSA set. Ditto for any appearance by Circus Maximus. Or Freak Kitchen. And I'll bet I'm not alone.
Even if a band sold just 50 CDs at $10 apiece, that's $500, which would more than pay for cardboard sleeves and band stickers. Do that 4-5 times during a tour (or every night) and you've picked up a few thousand dollars. Subtract the outlay for the materials and you realize a profit -- a profit you would not have made had you not done it.
Plus, most importantly, it thwarts the bootleggers, and puts money in the pockets of those who deserve it.
I apologize if I'm not explaining this more clearly.
Maybe the difference between us is that I'd be willing to try it. I'd buy the materials, buy or lease the equipment, and give it a try. If it doesn't work, so what? I'm not out much. If it does work, I have a source of income I didn't have before -- and have, potentially, put turds like Gerardo out of business.
Bill
Bill,
I like your idea. I think your reasoning is very sound. I guess it's a matter of doing the research and getting an idea of how many people there are who are willing to purchase the recordings.
As for AeonicSlumber, I wouldn't get too concerned with what he posts. He's basically the new Barking Pumpkin. If you don't get the reference, just ask any of the old timers on this forum.
Stay metal. Never rust.
Albert
I like your idea. I think your reasoning is very sound. I guess it's a matter of doing the research and getting an idea of how many people there are who are willing to purchase the recordings.
As for AeonicSlumber, I wouldn't get too concerned with what he posts. He's basically the new Barking Pumpkin. If you don't get the reference, just ask any of the old timers on this forum.
Stay metal. Never rust.
Albert
Diabolik
Member
I agree 100% with PurpleCrayonWriter. I know that the Pixies did this on thier last tour and it worked out well. If it was a great show I just saw...I would definetly pick it up. I wish bands would put out more tour dvd's. I dont care if it isnt the best sound or picture...it is cool to see different shows from each city or country and what the band does day to day. I am a sucker for that type of stuff. There are lots of ways for bands to make money...you just need the iniative and someone willing to put in that effort. I would love to see a band try this out and see how it works out for them. I bet if they made money...lots more bands would be doing this. Sure we would see people selling them...but I think bands would make more than the bootlegger would. Which is always a good thing.
Imagikafan
AKA Pooch - Mark
AeonicSlumber
srs
- Aug 14, 2008
- 4,893
- 0
- 36
Yes, because I have a pretty damn good idea as to how this stuff works man.
1) Alot of venues require you to pay a huge amount of money to use their equipment, etc. The Gramercy Theatre in NYC for example charges $8,000 just to film there. What? Did you think that it would be free to get a hold of soundboard recordings? Sometimes it is, but it depends on the venue.
2) I'd be surprised if the bootleger makes anything from this piece of shit DVD. Nobody is going to buy it when similar quality footage is free on Youtube. The principal of some shithead using copyrighted footage without Glenn's permission and trying to make money off of it alone is enough to get aggravated over -- but it's not like this kid is making a killing over these boots.
You implied so when you said you would do this if you had your own band.
Because NOBODY is going to buy this shit dude. Certainly, nobody is going to by an unprofessional-as-fuck paper slipcase with no artwork, etc. Even professionally packaged and distributed live albums don't sell that well. The DVDs do sell well, but that's another story. Anyways, so since nobody is going to buy it, the costs don't make sense.
You are also kidding yourself if you think that people are going to shell out another 10 bucks just to get the audio from a gig they went to. There's a lot more to a show than the audio. In fact, the visual aspect is more than half of the enjoyment. I NEVER buy live albums (barring a few rare exceptions), because what's the point if I can just listen to the CD?
LoL most of these bands only play to a few hundred on their tours dude. Thousands? Hell no. In fact, alot of these bands barely tour. They play like what; 50 shows a year? Alot of hard working DIY bands would laugh in their faces.
Additionally, since you clarified that you are referring to these bands you encounter yet another problem. You do not know what kind of deals these bands have with their labels, and for all we know, the label could have the rights to a live album in their contract. What then huh?
Dude no offense, but wake up. This is the internet age. You will never thwart the bootleggers. NEVER. Back in the day, unofficial bootlegs may have worked, but not now. Not when you can just hit Youtube up and get a similar experience for free. As I said for the third time now, CD sales are already down, nobody is going to buy this stuff.
AeonicSlumber
srs
- Aug 14, 2008
- 4,893
- 0
- 36
Why because I make valid, sensible arguments? Cry more dude. The irrational dogmatism of this board sometimes is really repulsive.
nomisofsiman
Member
Talk about going overboard here. haha. No worries though. The comparison of the prog/power bands to Metallica was simply to state that Metallica just has more money to do this sort of thing and that's why they do it. I don't honestly think it's the bandwidth to upload it online as much as it is costly to make a solid recording. As others have said, I don't think there's that many fans that want a shitty mix of a performance they loved.
Another thing to consider is that these jam bands/Metallica play in arenas or large places because their fan base is so huge. Not everyone that goes is going to buy the bootleg, but they have a much better ratio than those attending progpower. At progpower, you may have a similar percentege, but the amount isn't large enough to make it worthwhile for Glenn or whoever would produce it.
As far as why the jam band model works compared to others. I think it comes down to the performances and while some do mix up their set lists, i.e. Dream Theater, MOST do not and will not. I think you have to be a very capable band to be able to change it up night after night. I don't want to get into this too much though, as this is straying off the topic at hand.
nomisofsiman
Member
I think this may be the first thread where I agree with you. Yeah, you really are kidding yourself if you think these guys have a huge following. Not really. Some of them do if you were talking about Europe but definitely not in the US, which is what we're talking about. As a matter of fact, one of the main points to progpower is to bring these bands with little following to the small amount of US metal fans that want to see them.
AeonicSlumber
srs
- Aug 14, 2008
- 4,893
- 0
- 36
None of these bands are all that big in Europe either. I know many Europeans and they've told me time and time and again that these bands just don't tour enough over there to get the kind of success as others.
Guilty as charged, Aeonic Slumber.
I just returned from my crying fit. Seriously, grow the fuck up. There's a reason why I never responed to your post on the Sonata Arctica thread. I may not agree with everyone on this forum, but I don't feel the urge to give each and every one of them a condescending reply. Yes, the irrational dogmatism of this forum can be repulsive. I just think it's funny how some folks can't see just how irrationally dogmatic they are.
Stay metal. Never rust.
Albert
I just returned from my crying fit. Seriously, grow the fuck up. There's a reason why I never responed to your post on the Sonata Arctica thread. I may not agree with everyone on this forum, but I don't feel the urge to give each and every one of them a condescending reply. Yes, the irrational dogmatism of this forum can be repulsive. I just think it's funny how some folks can't see just how irrationally dogmatic they are.
Stay metal. Never rust.
Albert
Pellaz
Tigron of Immanion
I'm in awe.
Another chug-a-lug of your adult beverage, folks, for those who are participating and who partake.
Having heard soundboard recordings from several bands in the past, notably Ozric Tentacles (who encourage audio, but not video, recording at their shows), there are several bands for whom I'd be happy to pay $5-10 for a soundboard copy of their shows. On a CD? After the show? No-brainer.
Heck, the Boulder, CO 1994 show from Ozrics -- a soundboard recording -- is still one of the best live recordings of them ever.
Another chug-a-lug of your adult beverage, folks, for those who are participating and who partake.
Having heard soundboard recordings from several bands in the past, notably Ozric Tentacles (who encourage audio, but not video, recording at their shows), there are several bands for whom I'd be happy to pay $5-10 for a soundboard copy of their shows. On a CD? After the show? No-brainer.
Heck, the Boulder, CO 1994 show from Ozrics -- a soundboard recording -- is still one of the best live recordings of them ever.
No, man. It's not your arguments, some of which i agree with, but the nasty tone in which you often deliver them.
This is a social board, and yes, some members get starry-eyed or overzealous about bands, the fest, and even Glenn. No, not everyone here is deep rooted in the music business, and may not have great insights into the inner workings of the business.
Even so as a social site anyone can post a thought, speculation, or an opinion simply from a fan perspective. Not all of them are practical or even rational; however, they are made with the expectation of civil disagreement. Responses containing words like "ridiculous," "stupid," or "dumbest," or even any form of condecending tone are not apprecitated.
As to the main point of the thread: It would seem to me that the fact that the video company Glenn hires is still trying to dump DVD's from PPUSA VII and VIII is rather telling. If one can't sell more than a few hundred of high quality DVD's to a target audience of 1200 of the most dedicated fans, I don't see much hope for making a lot of money selling low quality bootlegs. Still, if you only sold ten at $5 each that's $50 you didn't have. Nevertheless, I agree with you that this bootlegger isn't going to make much of anything off these DVD's.
I know it irks Glenn to no end that someone else is making money of his hard work (and it is hard work). That's understandable, and something I (we) have to suck up and have to live with. But, I'd wager some people made a lot more money eBaying tickets to PPUSA IV, V, and VI at $300-$400 a set than this dude will ever make from this DVD. Yet this pittance is what lost the digital camera privilages.
Claus / Intromental
20 years of uniting the powers of metal
I've got to say - Aeonic Slumber is right on the money. Listen to what he says and learn, instead of writing him off as a troll - the guy knows what he is talking about.
So, before you all go "you don't know shit either then" on me, let me remind you that I've worked in this business for 13+ years and have arranged and done tons of tours around the world with my bands, gotten tons of record deals in place etc and I've firsthanded witnessed what Aeonic Slumber is talking about (i.e. venues charging you if you want to record through their soundboard, record contracts where labels own rights to your live albums, etc etc).
In a perfect world we'd be able to supply you, the fans, with a soundboard recording to purchase the day after a show, and trust me, it's something we've thoughts about doing and might eventually try out, but we're VERY realistic about it all, and we know very well we'll make no money out of it and we'll never get rid of the bootlegging industry either that way.
So, once more, stop trying to always argue Aeonic Slumber's pov, stop always taking him for nothing more than a troll, and please LISTEN and LEARN to what he has to say.
Thanxxx,
c.
So, before you all go "you don't know shit either then" on me, let me remind you that I've worked in this business for 13+ years and have arranged and done tons of tours around the world with my bands, gotten tons of record deals in place etc and I've firsthanded witnessed what Aeonic Slumber is talking about (i.e. venues charging you if you want to record through their soundboard, record contracts where labels own rights to your live albums, etc etc).
In a perfect world we'd be able to supply you, the fans, with a soundboard recording to purchase the day after a show, and trust me, it's something we've thoughts about doing and might eventually try out, but we're VERY realistic about it all, and we know very well we'll make no money out of it and we'll never get rid of the bootlegging industry either that way.
So, once more, stop trying to always argue Aeonic Slumber's pov, stop always taking him for nothing more than a troll, and please LISTEN and LEARN to what he has to say.
Thanxxx,
c.
PurpleCrayonWriter
Just a Kid at Heart
Thanks for chiming in, Claus. If you say the idea is likely not to work, then there's not much any of us can add to the discussion. If anyone here ought to know, it's you.
As far as Aeonic Slumber goes, I don't know the chap -- as a troll or anything else. I'm always happy to listen to and learn from someone. How the wisdom is packaged, though, makes a lot of difference. In this case, Aeonic Slumber seemed a tad abrasive for no apparent reason.
But all's well that ends well. We learned what works, what doesn't, and what will or won't thwart bootleggers. (Sadly, according to some of the comments, nothing will stop them.)
Anyhoo, I appreciate your opinion on the matter, Claus.
Bill
Similar threads
