I really need your advice on this - chargeing for files?

[ForHerDeadEyes]

Long story short:

I recorded/mixed/produced/edited/EVERYTHING, this band as a part of a schoolassignment.. that was almost a year ago..
It was for one song and I didn't get paid..

I basically wrote the song for them, they also acknowledge this..
They also said that I would get credit for it.. as I should, by law..
But I'm guessing I'm not getting included..

They got a lot of praise with the song.. people say it's their best one ever.. and it seems it's taking them places..
The singer just called me and said they'd won a contest and are getting 3000€ in marketing and a professional mixing and mastering from a studio..
So..
He asked me if I have the original files and can send them so they can get the professional mix..
Like I said.. I didn't get paid.. this is the song that's taking them places..

On top of that.. I recorded and mixed etc. the singers sister FOR FREE.. she was just about to pay 750€ for the recording, with one of her brothers bandmembers..

I busted my ass off with her brothers band..
And wasted many weeks recording her..
Since I did so much for them.. she said she'd give me 50€ and she also talked to her brothers band and asked them to pitch in another 50€.. but they said no.. that I already hade gotten my thanks.. and she said they were arrogant about it..
In the end she only gave me 10€ and said thanks! BYE!

After all that, I won't be giving up the files for free..
What should I charge?
Or am I a douche and should give them the files?

The project was 10Gb and after I cleaned it up, now it's 6Gb.. so I should have the original files intact..

 

[DanLights]

I don´t know, I feel for you but I don´t see how you should charge for releasing the files to them, if you were involved you should be credited on everything you did, but I wouldn´t expect to get paid, you did it for free in the first place

 

[jipchen]

Imho they're obviously douchebags and should definitely pay you. But it's a bit difficult to charge for something if you didn't agree on a price before everything started. What about the 750€? Was that an agreement or just something they thought about but didn't happen?
If you didn't have an agreement or better a contract stating you get paid i.e. 750€ then - in my opinion - it is a little unfair to charge them afterwards even if you deserve the money of course. You can ask them nicely to pay you something now that they want the original files, but you should not demand it. Otherwise they'll probably talk shit about you and your services on the internet / in public.

 

[Mesa4x12er]

Personal opinion? You already did your part for them. You already "got your thanks" and they already got their mix. Tell them you don't have the project anymore. You agreed to do the project for free and you did it so it'd be a dick move to charge now. But as they made it clear your role was over, I'd just let it completely be over. Agreement has been over, let it stay over. Don't send them anything.

 

[darthjujuu]

Personal opinion? You already did your part for them. You already "got your thanks" and they already got their mix. Tell them you don't have the project anymore. You agreed to do the project for free and you did it so it'd be a dick move to charge now. But as they made it clear your role was over, I'd just let it completely be over. Agreement has been over, let it stay over. Don't send them anything.

agreed, they can re-record with the "professional", unless they don't remember/know how to play in it, in which case you can bask in the glory when all the kids will say "maaan i liked the original version of that song way better."

 

[adirving]

All record labels own the masters to there clients material. It's very rare for a artist to own there own masters and if they do try to buy them they charge them a small fortune. So if I we're you I would ask for your share of what they have earned (because you wrote and are credited for the song) and charge them for the masters if not, they can go whistle for it.

 

[ForHerDeadEyes]

Thanks for the replies, guys!
I was actually newly awake when I wrote it, so I expressed myself badly.. +being annoyed with the call I got from the singer..

I worked with the band a year ago.
Spent many weeks and sleepless nights recording them and writing the song and lyrics..
I did everything on the song, mixing, editing, mastering etc..
I finished the project and I wanted to send them a .Wav file, but they didn't want one, they just wanted an mp3 and said that a .Wav file would be useless..
Yes, I explained that it would be better to get a .wav if they're going to put on a cd or a dvd (I record in 24/48), but they insisted on getting a mp3.

So, they got the mp3 and we parted ways..
Project done..

I'm fairly new at recording bands I've never met before.. so I was a bit naive..
I did so much for them, spent a lot of my own money on travels and food to be with them when they rehearsed etc..
I wanted to do the best job I could..

The singers sister asked if I could record her vocals for 5 songs she had for a schoolproject, I said I'd do it..
Then the band said (after we had said to work on other songs) that they wanted to work with another guy..
So.. I said that his sister should record at that guys place too..
But he would charge her etc.
In the end she said she'd have to pay 750€ to record her 5 songs.. and that she was ready to pay it..
But I promised I'd record and mix her for free.. so.. I kept my promise..
I recorded and edited and mixed 5 songs (just vocals) and mastered it..
For that I got 10€..

So.. that was a year ago.. almost..
They got their music.. the song is making them go places.. still they don't want to work more with me..
NOW..
They show up wanting the original files..
We haven't talked for all this time.. no agreement on giving up any files other than the mp3 they wanted.. which I gave them..

Btw.. Here's the original song of theirs, that I worked on:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2383166/Redcarpet.mp3

And here's how it sounds after I worked on it..
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2383166/Future Citizens - For you I will.mp3
Notice any changes..

I hope this clears things up.. should I still just give them all my files of them, for free?
(Sorry, I have no idea how to make the mp3's playable in dropbox, only downloadable)

 

[heshian46]

agreed, they can re-record with the "professional", unless they don't remember/know how to play in it, in which case you can bask in the glory when all the kids will say "maaan i liked the original version of that song way better."

Or you can help them re-record it, and charge them for your services as a session musician/producer.

 

[Jarkko Mattheiszen]

That's exactly what happens when you work for free. Been there, done that, had to pay for the t-shirt.

Give them the files, make sure you get credited for recording and editing, never work with them again unless you get paid properly and up front and take this as a lesson learned.

 

[TheDriller]

At the very least, it's a recall,
Charge your hourly rate for the time taken to consolidate, bounce and check the tracks.
Round up to the nearest hour and hand them the bill.

 

[ForHerDeadEyes]

Yeah, it's been almost a year and they didn't want anything but an mp3, back then..
Now I have to go through all the projects and find the right tracks..

I hope you guys read my second reply in this thread, trying to clear it all up..

Also..
We had problems with the drums and the drummer.. so..
In the end I programmed them.. using SSD and also some secret sauce (samples)..

I don't feel comfortable just giving up stemtracks of SSD nor my production of it..

But I'm listening to you.. your input is important.. if the best thing is to just give them the files and move on.. although I have.. already.. then.. maybe that's the way to go..

 

[Mago]

At the very least, it's a recall,
Charge your hourly rate for the time taken to consolidate, bounce and check the tracks.
Round up to the nearest hour and hand them the bill.

This!

Hand out the midi if you don't want to give away any samples of yours and samplepacks.
Or just a stem for the overheads and triggers for the shells.

Lesson learned I'd say.
Not worth to tell them to fuck off and get a bad reputation out of it imo

 

[ForHerDeadEyes]

This!

Hand out the midi if you don't want to give away any samples of yours and samplepacks.
Or just a stem for the overheads and triggers for the shells.

Lesson learned I'd say.
Not worth to tell them to fuck off and get a bad reputation out of it imo

Haha, no.. I wouldn't tell them to fuck off..
Just handing out the midi could work..
The thing is that they only get a remix.. not sure "the other guy" will render any of that for free.. not that it's my problem..

I've edited the audiotracks (noise removal, making sure it's tight etc)

To make things generally clear..
I record at home for fun and for myself.. I don't have an hourly rate nor do I think I could have one, until I get a better studio..
Finding all the right files could take a long time..
What would your standard fee be? to put it all together..

It's not like owe them any favours.. especially since they decided to go with another dude.. after they said we'd work more together..

 

[Mago]

Around here I got paid 7€/h for working at the supermarket.
I think AE requires slightly more knowledge and therefore it should be quite a bit more than that.
Just to give you and idea

 

[drew_drummer]

Not sure of the legalities, but I'd double check your EULA's for your samples - you're not always allowed to give away "performances" that use sampled content... ie: your Slate tracks might be subject to the EULA.

Personally, I'd tell them you no longer have the files, and let them do it all afresh with someone else. And learn from the experience - get contracts and make the band/artist sign them.

 

[thefyn]

Send them their original MP3 mix back, and a link to this thread.

You wrote part of the song. So you can withhold it surely?

 

[ForHerDeadEyes]

The singer called me and couple of minutes ago..

They asked me if I had the files, this morning.. they've sent a couple of sms:es and REALLY wanting to know..
And lastly he called..

I'm 10 years older than he is.. maybe that's a big issue..
Thing is..

I told him I have the files and that I'd charge for letting them have them..
I have no obligation to do them any favours, especially since I recorded his sister for free and them..

They chose to work with someone else.. even though they said they'd work with me..

Even so..
He now said that they wanted the files for free..
And tried to tell me they have the right to them..
I told him that they don't..

He told me that it felt better working with the other guy.. fine..
I told him that it is fine..

He told me that this is a great opportunity for them, getting a pro-mix out on the internet..
I told him it is..

But I have to charge them for the files..

I told him that when they recorded with the other guy, they paid him, right?
Yes, of course..

I need to get paid too..
It's been a year.. they haven't called me or anything..
-You could have called us!? asking if we wanted to record and stuff..!
-Why?.. you already told me you wanted to work with someone else..

-So you want money for the files?
-Yes!
-Well.. ehhhh.. we can't just throw out money like that.. (their gear costs more than my entire home studio)
-I'm sorry, that's not my problem.. You've payed everyone else you've worked with?
-Yes!
-I also need to get paid for my work..
-But this is great for us bla bla bla
-Yeah it is! but we're not friends, I don't dislike you at all, but I need money for my services.. you didn't work more with me.. you haven't even called me in a year..
I recorded your sister for free.. I have to get paid for my work this time..
-But no other producer would charge us for a copy of the original files..!
-Yeah right.....

I can't even write down the most infuriating shit..
In the midst of all that I got two good questions..
If I sell them the files..
Do they own them?

We agreed that him and I own the rights to the song and lyric itself..
But not about the files..
I mean.. I know I own them now..
But what happens if I sell them..?
And how much would you charge for that? :S

 

[Mago]

You're not selling him the files, you're beeing paid for the time it takes to organize them, render them, ects...

About the ownership of the files and stuff: if you don't have any contract that was signed before the recordings then I guess you'd have to settle that in a court...
unless there's some law that clears that up beforehand?
Don't really know too much about this kind of stuff I must confess

 

[if6was9]

Give them the files but give them the edited, but raw files. Turn off any EQ, processing, effects etc... and give them the midi drum file since you said it's programmed. If it's DI's using amp sims, then turn the sims off and just give out the DI's.

If they want the files with the processing then ask them to pay you for that. If you want them to pay you for the work you did before I don't think there's any way you can make that happen without coming out looking bad to anyone they tell the story to.

To be honest you should have just deleted the files and told them you don't have them anymore if you really didn't want them to have them. That way they could never get them off you and it's not unreasonable to think you won't have kept the projects.

 

[jipchen]

Well obviously they won't pay. I think you should just hand them out the files, like if6was9 said: the edited but unprocessed files and the MIDI file for the drums. That's plenty enough for the other studio to work with if they're even semi-professional. The thing is, normally the music and the content belongs to the band and the files itself belong to you because you recorded them. That's why contracts are useful. In your case, I don't think you would get anything even if you tried legal action.

So in the end, just give them those files, make sure you get mentioned on the CD and most probably that will even give you one or two new band to record with. If the mix turns out good, you will want your name to be connected with it, won't you? That's better than nothing and very useful at the beginning.. even if you feel like the band should not be "rewarded" for not paying you anything and being dickheads. If you refuse to give them the files then you will get nothing out of the whole story at all.