Iced Earth - The Crucible of Man

[General Zod]

In all honesty, I'm not sure how much getting on a tour with Maiden or Priest would actually help Iced Earth, in terms of future record or ticket sales. At a Maiden or Priest show, you generally have two groups of people:

1. People who were into Metal, for about five years, during the 80s. They now listen to Nickelback and have no interest in anything Metal, that isn't purely nostalgic. Most of these folks would be in the parking lot, getting drunk and talking about the crazy shit they did in high school, while Iced Earth was on stage.

2. People who are already fans of Iced Earth.

Obviously, not everyone fits neatly into one of these two groups. However, I think Iced Earth could go out there every night and blow Priest's doors off, without seeing a sizable bump in future album, ticket or t-shirt sales.

Zod

 

[Cheiron]

I think they'd do well to tour with Disturbed, Avenged Sevenfold or Opeth.

 

[Diamond45]

*scratches his frenchie-introduced-to-baseball-by-the-girlfriend-last-year head*

Grand Slam = a very good thing in baseball. I'm sure you can look it up in Wikipedia to find the explaination.

Now for the album... I still haven't listened to this album all the way through yet, but from what I've sampled so far... it has promise.

 

[Bryan316]

CoM isn't hugely more aggressive (than FA) by any means, but that's OK, I don't judge albums by how heavy they are Jon's writing style has obviously evolved...for better, worse, or neither depending on who you ask. On one hand people complain he recycles riffs, but other people complain when every song doesn't have the trademark triplets or gallop, but rather has something fresh like the world music elements, choir arrangements, or other progressive touches...it's a no-win situation in some circles. The most common complaint I've seen is that it's too mid-tempo...but unless you compare it to say, Night Of The Stormrider, I'd say it's fairly comparable tempo-wise to any other IE album...they all feature a blend of tempos, which is a good thing IMO. But I agree that the standards for an IE album are pretty high, and those for this SW concept were impossibly high.

As far as touring as a headliner for a household name, Jon has talked about that before, as continuing to headline is "preaching to the choir" so to speak...just hasn't happened yet, aside from the tour with Megadeth several years back.

I wanna try to bounce these against Manticora's The Black Circus. Especially the argument of "It sounds different, it sounds the same".

At first listen, The Black Circus Pt 1 was a big change in songwriting and sound. It was a hard listen for me. Guitar tone was far different, drum levels different, all the ambient sounds and filler tracks were different. But after I heard Disciples of the Entities, it tied everything together with a big fat coating of AWESOME. The song's intro riff was the same melody that echoes throughout the album in different ways and styles. And for the last song of the album to be a blistering, fearful, brutal slap in the face like that? GENIUS. All the eccentricities of the album came together and were brought full-circle. That's true kickass songwriting. The boys really know how to tie a whole concept album together. Further references, see Loveeternalloveeternal...

Now. I haven't heard Crucible of Man yet. So I can't tell if this same kind of preplanned cohesiveness is there, to tie Framing Armageddon to the second album in such ways. So I'll say this in just the context of Framing Armageddon alone as a part of the story. This first half does bring lots of creativity and lots of ew ideas in good ways. But it does not tie into the history of Iced Earth and its sounds from the past. It needs that old-school element, much like Manticora's Disciples of the Entities has the old-school top-speed assault the band is known for.


I know, I know I know IknowIknowIknow. People grow. People change. People's tastes and styles evolve. I can easily tell you how mine has, as a musician and as a listener.

But if a band or musician changes so much over the years, what really truly ties him back to his youth? What keeps his inspirations and influences attached? Damn the day when I can't pick up a bass and blast through Anesthesia! In the same way, damn the day Jon Shaffer can't include Stormrider or Pure Evil or Dante's Inferno in the setlist!

I've been listening to Alive In Athens exclusively for the last two weeks. No idea why, just needed to binge on this set of discs. It truly is a time capsule of the most perfectly metal timeframe in my life. No, I don't want to go listen to Stormrider on the original album, I want to hear the AIA version, because it's infinitely more brutal.


Those are my random Iced Earth thoughts of the day. Time for a cookie.

 

[Mynock]

Grand Slam = a very good thing in baseball. I'm sure you can look it up in Wikipedia to find the explaination.

The grand slam I knew

It's just a lot of infos to imbibe fast, and I don't do a lot of imbibing anything usually

 

[Magius]

Hard to say. Without knowing the logistics, financial position of the band, etc. They may have had to tour then and there.

Zod

Yes. If that was the case then it was unfortunate for Iced Earth. The exposure in the US would have arguably been more benificial than in Europe where they are pretty well established. That is the reason bands tour in support roles after all.

There is another group one might find at a Priest concert: Those who are still Metal fans from the 80's, but are unaware of what's available outside of the "mainstream" such as it is. Those who currently, albeit lazily, settle for bands like Disturbed and the various offerings from the Nu-metal and Metalcore scene.

I have introduced bands like Iced Earth to more than a few people who have never heard of them, regardless of how well known they are known in communities as this.

 

[General Zod]

There is another group one might find at a Priest concert: Those who are still Metal fans from the 80's, but are unaware of what's available outside of the "mainstream" such as it is. Those who currently, albeit lazily, settle for bands like Disturbed and the various offerings from the Nu-metal and Metalcore scene.

I have introduced bands like Iced Earth to more than a few people who have never heard of them, regardless of how well known they are known in communities as this.

I agree that this group exists, but I believe it's pretty small. At this stage of their career, Iced Earth has reached the level where if someone has even a passing interest in Metal, it's hard to be unaware of them. Even still, I suspect they draw more new fans from the word of mouth you described, then they would opening for Priest. Like I said, even someone who might have been turned on by them, is likely in the parking lot tailgating.

Zod

 

[Jasonic]

There is another group one might find at a Priest concert: Those who are still Metal fans from the 80's, but are unaware of what's available outside of the "mainstream" such as it is.

Thank you! This is the exact group I was trying to detail in a previous post. I was with a couple older friends of mine at the Megadeth / Iced Earth gig in 2001. They would have otherwise never heard of IE. They saw them, and were amazed that there was a newer band who played that traditional sound. They quickly became fans.

Also, I think if IE opened for Metallica (as one example), you would have a huge group of younger fans who might only know IE by name, but would become fans of the band as to try to appear "in the know" of underground bands. Certainly worked for DragonForce on Ozzfest, right? Any kid into Disturbed and SlipKnot who knows a little about underground metal (maybe from zines like Guitar Player, etc) instantly became a fan.

Regardless of how a fan is introduced, if they check a band out, and support them by purchasing an album or a ticket, I am all for it! If they are just hopping in on the trend, then they will be gone soon anyhow. At least in the meantime, a band like IE would get more much deserved recognition.

 

[Iced Dog]

Yep, opening for a more contemporary "mainstream" metal band is what Iced Earth needs to boost exposure...Dragonforce is a good example of what could happen. Who knows, maybe the powers behind Guitar Hero or Rock Band will eventually use an IE track...that alone would be a tremendous marketing breakthrough.

 

[Purveyor Of Evil]

Yeah, like IRON MAIDEN opening for TED NUGENT, FOREIGNER, and LOVERBOY in 1982. Just gotta try to get yourself out there and be noticed.

 

[General Zod]

Liking it more with each listen. However, I can't say I'm blown away yet. Overall, the disc is just too mid-tempo for my liking. More importantly, the songwriting just isn't that strong. I'd say the single, "I Walk Alone", is probably the CD's strongest track.

It's an OK disc. I suspect to some extent, Iced Earth has fallen victim to the high standards people hold them to. I suspect most of the reviews would be gushing if this was some unknown band. There seems to be no fire or energy behind many of these songs. Regardless, I'll buy it the day it comes out.

It's growing on me. Not because I'm forcing it, just because there's quality here, it's just not what I was expecting.

OK. My opinion continues to evolve in regard to this latest offering. It's now hard to see this disc not finishing the year in my Top 10. It's much more nuanced than previous Iced Earth offerings, which is something I wasn't expecting.

As I said previously, if this was the debut by an unknown, I believe people would be praising it non-stop. Unfortunately, I think people arrive at a release like this with certain expectations in regard to style. Clearly, this isn't Night of the Stormrider or The Dark Saga. It's not meant to be. The best way to approach this disc (IMO) is outside the context of their discography.

Zod

 

[Iced Dog]

Wow, I've quoted myself before, but never 3 times in the same post...that, my friend, is impressive

 

[General Zod]

Wow, I've quoted myself before, but never 3 times in the same post...that, my friend, is impressive

LOL. It's a strange combination of arrogance, self-deprecation, confusion and boredom.

Zod

 

[TBJ]

Question, when is this album coming out?(legally), that way I can listen to it and post arrogant, self-deprecating, confused and bloated reviews of it.

 

[General Zod]

Question, when is this album coming out?(legally), that way I can listen to it and post arrogant, self-deprecating, confused and bloated reviews of it.

9/9/2008.

Zod

 

[skyrefuge]

The best way to approach this disc (IMO) is outside the context of their discography.

Yeah, that's why I originally thought your baseball analogy was a bit off. You were expecting a grand slam, and only saw a double hit off the wall, but meanwhile, that wasn't even the story of the game. While you weren't looking, the pitcher was busy throwing a no-hitter.

Now, I've only listened to it twice, so I have no idea yet if it comes anywhere near the quality of a no-hitter (or even a 3-hit shutout), but it seemed pretty clear that this album (and really, Framing Armageddon too) represents a quite-different approach by Iced Earth. So it doesn't even make sense to look for the same type of highlights that they gave us before. No closing epic songs, no trilogies, reduced dynamics, no formulas; all that makes it difficult to find an exciting 5-second excerpt to throw up on SportsCenter, but for me, that's often an indicator of a very good album.

Neil

 

[General Zod]

Yeah, that's why I originally thought your baseball analogy was a bit off. You were expecting a grand slam, and only saw a double hit off the wall, but meanwhile, that wasn't even the story of the game. While you weren't looking, the pitcher was busy throwing a no-hitter.

Sticking with the baseball analogy for a moment, I always expect a "grand slam" from Iced Earth, in terms of quality. But as I said, once I approached with a different perspective, I discovered what I missed the first few times around.

Zod

 

[am_ash2]

Yep, opening for a more contemporary "mainstream" metal band is what Iced Earth needs to boost exposure...Dragonforce is a good example of what could happen. Who knows, maybe the powers behind Guitar Hero or Rock Band will eventually use an IE track...that alone would be a tremendous marketing breakthrough.

But Poochie, I don't WANT them to open for bigger bands because the real fans like us will never be able to be close to the stage or shmooze afterwards....there's a lot to be said for being underground.

 

[Iced Dog]

Haha, yes, that is definitely one of the perks of metal fandom nowadays...by and large, you can get close to and actually meet your musical heroes

 

[General Zod]

OK. This disc is now dominating my player. I've probably listened to it now more than any other 2008 release, with the exception of Warrel's solo disc.

Zod