Oh, and something I think has been missing from the last 3 albums is the neoclassical influence. Now I am not saying I want this neoclassical guitar Malmsteem shred fest overtaking all their songs; however, I think hearing some of that influence here and there in their music is something that would be good to hear again.
Iconoclast spoiler thread
- Thread starter Liampie
- Start date
I wholeheartedly agree with the chorus comment. When I first heard the chorus for Iconoclast I was hoping it was going to go somewhere, anywhere, but no; it just repeated itself. I already can picture this song during a concert where the crowd will serve as the background chanting for the chorus, bleh.
Also, it would be nice if many of the song titles weren't forced into the song itself since that tends to lead to these lackluster choruses. I could just be grasping here, but a lot of their better songs use the title simply as a theme and build from there.
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metalxmetalx
Member
- May 6, 2011
- 310
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What a sight! Thousands of people chanting in unison: We are Strong/We will stand and fight!
:Prometheis I Am Alive would like to have a word with you.
+ There is really so much one can do with the neoclassical sound after as many albums as they put out. Diminished sweeps and that technique when you play a note, hit another, back to that note, and repeat with the second note down the fretboard can get kinda predictable. Cant remember the name of the technique and it pains me because i should know. But im glad MR sounds more like MR and not MR: mega neoclassical version.
_Gentleman of_the Snow_
Prog' Drummer
I don't care for Neoclassical... I just want good prog!
Having a prog breakdown in the bridge, or a proggy intro does not make a song prog.
I wouldn't call Awakenings a jazz song...
Having a prog breakdown in the bridge, or a proggy intro does not make a song prog.
I wouldn't call Awakenings a jazz song...
I understand why would a prog-rock person (such as my gf for example) not like like this album, but I honestly cannot see a reason why someone with metal roots not enjoy it.
Regarding the "lack of variety" argument, I find it unconvincing. For instance, my 4 favorite songs so far are (in order of preference): When All is Lost, Iconoclast, Reign in Madness, and The Lords Of Chaos. Each of these songs sound quite different and varied to me.
Another weak argument. Yes he did (not less than he usually does anyway) and I can give examples, but I won't bother. You just don't like the album and that's okay.
Regarding the "lack of variety" argument, I find it unconvincing. For instance, my 4 favorite songs so far are (in order of preference): When All is Lost, Iconoclast, Reign in Madness, and The Lords Of Chaos. Each of these songs sound quite different and varied to me.
Another weak argument. Yes he did (not less than he usually does anyway) and I can give examples, but I won't bother. You just don't like the album and that's okay.
The irony of "Jeff Hanneman" posting about false notes is delicious. Of course, it would be much funnier if it was really him.
my final conclusion is that I like three songs on the album, and none of those three are touching their best material.
They can do what they like, I've gotten five amazing albums from them, but the main gripe is that they seem to be dumbing everything down in order to appeal to a wider range of metalheads.
There is a difference between a good catchy chorus and a chorus that is catchy because it is dumb.
when the chorus is MY DOMINATION!!! YEAAAAAH!!! MY DOMINATION!!! YEAAAAAH!!! of course you are going to remember it, you hear it once and you are already singing it the next time.
but is that a good chorus?
not to me.
this is a good chorus
it might take you 4-5 times to spin the song and learn the lyrics (god forbid!), the melody is very well written, the chorus is dynamic.
that's what Symphony X choruses used to be like. now they are...
YOU ARE THE BASTARDS!!!! OF THE MACHINE!!!! OHHHH WHHOOOOAAHHHHH!!!! YOU ARE THE BASTARDS!!!! OF THE MACHINE!!!!!
Yes, I see your point about the choruses. I remember the interview with MJR saying something like the music will be more accessible; I think his word was. The songs on Iconoclast, most of them, have what sounds like a very typical metal/hard rock kind of chorus for sure and although the music sounds like Sym X , it seems to go outside a bit of their usual scope. Maybe thats what they wanted. I like many of the songs, except the slow one,.. I didnt even bother with it to be honest. However, there are parts of every song, I dont like. It is a little frustrating. Some of the tone of the instruments seem different too; especially MP's keys. Russell sounds super except for the throaty, growly stuff. But hey dude, I kind of dig the chorus for Domination. That song is bad ass; I think it is the prechorus that one has to include: all hail and santify.. My domination.. plus it has the baddest ass riff in history.
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_Gentleman of_the Snow_
Prog' Drummer
Detective Clarence Beauregard
Dehumanized
Yep. To me this is a disappointment, because songs in general seem to be far more one-dimensional when written by just one individual. PL was so-so in this department, but how many songs can you count on Iconoclast where the transition between the chorus/post-chorus and second verse features the band completely stopping except for MJR, who plays some fill or uses some whacky effect?
That's just an example, but it's obvious that this album's music was written solely by one person. If you ask me, their music was much more inspired back in the days when everyone chimed in on the music and lyrics.
You're absolutely right (except for The Odyssey, which in my opinion had plenty of neoclassical elements). You can't do that stuff in every song, but a few tracks an album would be nice. PL had a few, but Iconoclast has Light Up the Night and that's it (although I suppose bits of Innocence and Dehumanized have some of it). Like it or not, neoclassical elements are something that have always been a core part of Symphony X's sound, and I for one am also sad that they have been reduced in recent years.
To be honest, I don't hear that many neoclassical elements in this song. It sounds bluesy to me, actually.
I agree with you, although I can't understand how you "couldn't even bother" with quite possibly the strongest song on the album. Just when I think a song is decent, they throw in some stupid part that almost completely derails it. Examples?
Iconoclast: chorus
Dehumanized: verses
Bastards: chorus, and the part where they shout "bastards" like little teenagers
Heretic: "watch me burn" part; Metallica's Blackened, anyone?
Children: bridge between solos that sounds exactly like Serpent's Kiss
WAIL: last guitar solo just doesn't fit the song
Prometheus: Russ's assclown vocals in the first verse
LUTN: Russ screaming "I wanna see you burn;" really guys? Trying a bit too hard.
Lords: stupid Meshuggah interlude with no melody whatsoever
Reign: the Pantera part in the middle with no keyboards
_Gentleman of_the Snow_
Prog' Drummer
^
The problem is that if a song has a section I do not like about it, the entire song is ruined (usually).
There are many amazing moments within Iconoclast. The downside is that scattering them in between sections of "meh" does not equal a good song.
The worst parts about the songs on Iconoclast are the ridiculously simple, cookie-cutter song structures, and the power-metal-like choruses.
The problem is that if a song has a section I do not like about it, the entire song is ruined (usually).
There are many amazing moments within Iconoclast. The downside is that scattering them in between sections of "meh" does not equal a good song.
The worst parts about the songs on Iconoclast are the ridiculously simple, cookie-cutter song structures, and the power-metal-like choruses.
PrgrsveMetalnChains
Vocal Prince
Fuck me. Its true. Not saying the album is bad by any means but it does lack the oldschool Symphony X feel where each song was its own piece of magic...its hard to explain the feeling really...You're making "simple structure" sound like such a terrible thing, why's that? And why are you guys acting like it's the FIRST time SymX writes power-metal-like choruses or sub par lyrics?
I'm pretty sure this has a lot to do with the theme of the album (remember, the band wrote the music after a predefined theme, not the other way around). I think the choice for the way the songs are done fits very well with the theme. It's NOT supposed to be "magical", and this is something that many here fail to grasp because they're too busy complaining. This is NOT Alice in Wonderland, nor the Mythology of Atlantis, nor the story of a brave knight. It's dark, ugly, modern, mechanical, and 'in your face'.
Detective Clarence Beauregard
Dehumanized
Progbass
Member
If today's SX makes next album based on Alice in Wonderland. The album will still start off with pantera style riffing and russ screaming "bastards of wonderland, leave alice alone" or something similiar
Not trying to make fun of the band, but thats just how it is and by the way..I dont really have a problem about their heavier approach.
PrgrsveMetalnChains
Vocal Prince
Its true...I never thought about it like that.
If today's SX makes next album based on Alice in Wonderland. The album will still start off with pantera style riffing and russ screaming "bastards of wonderland, leave alice alone" or something similiar
LOL.
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_Gentleman of_the Snow_
Prog' Drummer
Progbass, ROFL!
Marwen, it would've been a much more interesting approach had the band used their dislike for the "machine future" as a contrast to the human element that is the members of Symphony X. Combining mechanical synths and productions with an organic, human-like approach would've been brilliant. Prove that humans have still got it!
Instead, they made their music, and themselves sound exactly like the machines they are protesting against. It's contradictory, and a lost opportunity.
Marwen, it would've been a much more interesting approach had the band used their dislike for the "machine future" as a contrast to the human element that is the members of Symphony X. Combining mechanical synths and productions with an organic, human-like approach would've been brilliant. Prove that humans have still got it!
Instead, they made their music, and themselves sound exactly like the machines they are protesting against. It's contradictory, and a lost opportunity.
Don't forget no smoking, drinking, or talking, headbanging, or watching.
But seriously, what I meant is it would be a bit disappointing to me if the chanting was added primarily as a device for concerts. It would definitely not spoil the show or anything like that, and I still think the song is great, but it's not exactly a chorus I'm fond of. Who knows, maybe it'll grow on me and I'll be shouting the lyrics.
Isaac_de_Moorea
Silent Member
Agree. Where the hell is Pinella contributing on this album? Have you guys heard his solo album???
(Stupid question I know...)I have understood that this metal and guitar-oriented album(s) are consequences of the themes they have chosen. Maybe the next theme (and some of us let´s hope that) will be "lighter". If not, I´m not sure if I can handle another "Darker" album.
I didn´t hear similarities with "Blackened" until I read your post. But "The Shortest Straw", in the chorus... was almost instantly.
Maybe it´s because the previous albums were less than half of those choruses/lyrics/"cookie-cutter song structures"... Or maybe it´s because just the first time that there isn´t (IMO) a flawless song in an album of SX... Or maybe it´s because for some of us the expectations for this album were higher...
Not all is bad in this album... The interludes of "Iconoclast" and "Bastards" ... the first 6 or maybe 7 minutes of WAiL... "Prometheus" minus its verses... The opening riff (not the intro) with the wah pedal and the acoustic interlude (without the lyrics, but with the vocal melody
)of RiM...The pre-chorus of "Heretic"... The Bridge of EoI ("The world is dying"), etc.Those parts made "Iconoclast" for me.
but the rest...
_Gentleman of_the Snow_
Prog' Drummer
It may not be the first time SX have written a power metal chorus, but I was hoping that the songs on PL would be the last.
Instead, they've added even more...
Instead, they've added even more...
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