Iconoclast spoiler thread

[Moonchild141]

I think SyX have written great lyrics in the past. V is a lyrical masterpiece. Through The Looking Glass I love. But i think alot of bands hit a lyrical wall after a certain point. SyX is a band past their prime and Lyrics show that. That said they are still a pretty good band.

 

[RuRoRul]

I care about lyrics to some extent, but lyrics have to be very, very bad in a way that they are actively offensive (not offensive as in rude, but as in there's something about them that actively incites my dislike, rather than just being bland or sub-par) to make me dislike an otherwise good song because of them. And the lyrics on these albums definitely aren't that for me.

And I agree metal, they have had some good lyrics in the past even if some see the subject as being cheesy (e.g. I love the lyrics to The Odyssey, certain parts especially, even though I know there are people who'd dismiss them because of the whole concept). But those "top notch" lyrics you've picked out are spread across their whole discography - they have had their fair share of lyrics that aren't any better than the stuff on Iconoclast, and there are some lyrics on Iconoclast that I'm sure, in time, many people will consider some of them among their better lyrics.

Also it's less that people are just saying that they don't like the lyrics, but that some seem to be considering them bad by holding them to a standard they don't seem to hold the old Symphony X songs to. Saying the old lyrics are all perfectly fine but these ones are suddenly abysmal seems to me a bit like reading the Harry Potter series and thinking it's fine, then on the last book suddenly saying you don't like it because the whole thing about magic and a school for wizards is stupid.

I'm sure some people won't see it that way, and will maintain that every Symphony X song has amazing lyrics except Iconoclast, which consists entirely of abysmal lyrics.

 

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

I think they've always had moments where I'm reminded of other bands. Yngwie Malmsteen is never too far out of mind when I hear Symohony X. Of Sins And Shadows has the Queen Bohemian Rhapsody part ... The Odyssey has some chorus parts that are nearly identical to Rainbow's Street Of Dreams. There's tons of other examples.

Nah, you're right, but I guess what I'm saying is that the influence from other bands shows a lot more on this album than it did on previous releases. Bands like Queen, Rainbow, Malmsteen, Kansas... these are bands that influenced Symphony X's core sound. Can you pick any Symphony X album that hasn't shown at least some influence from these bands?

With this new album, it seems that they've heavily pushed their core sound back and are instead trying to emulate other bands (Metallica, Pantera, and Meshuggah are just obvious examples). It just doesn't sit well with me; it brings to mind when Dream Theater released Octavarium and Systematic Chaos and turned to complete shit due to the obvious rip-offs from every band under the sun.

Allow this to be a compliment for Bastards Of The Machine then - it's awesome. Maybe you won't like it but the verses are amazing, it has one of the best instrumental sections and really has the sound to fit the theme of the album.

While I do think that the music fits the album's overall theme better than other tracks, I just can't get past that lackluster chorus or the unnecessary shouting of the word "bastards" throughout the outro. It's like they're trying to appease 15-year-olds who think it's badass to shout out swear words. These guys are in their 40s! Grow up! I do like the verses, though (a lot of Dio comes through here), and the instrumental sections are interesting and different for this band.

Pinella seems to be reusing his Patches from PL and V and hasnt brought much to the table. There is Almost no standout Bass lines either like past albums.

There's definitely a lot of new keyboard sounds that P hasn't used before, although a lot of them are very mechanical. For example, the intros to Innocence, Dehumanized, and Prometheus, the interludes in Bastards, and throughout Reign in Madness.

I agree about the bass parts, though. There's bits and pieces in Bastards, Heretic, and Prometheus, but no balls-to-the-wall tapping solos that Symphony X is known for. Hell, even Paradise Lost had one of those! As a bass player this deeply saddens me. The bass on this album seems to just play everything that Romeo is playing, albeit an octave lower. If I want to listen to Dream Theater, I'll listen to Dream Theater...

The biggest thing with this album is the lack of Dynamics.

Very true. Every song is just loud and louder, with a few exceptions (WAIL, RIM). It's just so intense and aggressive that it has very little in common with past Symphony X releases.

 

[iceandfire84]

I have to say that for me, Rullo is king on this album.

 

[Pamonha]

I have to say that for me, Rullo is king on this album.

Something no one said so far that I remembered paying attention on the first couple of listenings is that the drums sounds better. A friend of mine said once that SX drums sounded like a bunch of tupperware, it didn't have much depth , especially the bass drum and snare. I think this is the best drum sound on any SX album, they really got it right this time. And of course, Rullo rocks the shit out of the drumkit.

 

[JPX]

Romeo sounds like he recycling quite a few of his past riffs. And it starts right away, the verse to Iconoclast could very well be the verse for Eve of Seduction almost note for note. I picked up on about 10 other examples where I had deja vu from just one listen.

The whole record seems a little one dimensional which is what I was expecting. Seems like there are some cool sections here and there but overall pretty un-spectuclar. Oh well.

 

[CantoX]

Everything happening in the verses of Bastards is awesome. The way Russel is singing, the lyrics are cool, the guitar riffs are dynamic and add to the singing, the drumming is fantastic! I like the verses of that song a lot. The chorus is alright and cool to sing along to.

When All Is Lost is even better than I thought previously. I love that little instrumental part in the middle of the song, and someone mentioned that it's accolade'ish and I completely agree. It's great.

Electric Messiah is a badass song. Love all the musical things going on. The lyrics are alright I guess, but the singing of them is great.

I like the chorus of Children of a Faceless God. Where it's just continuously going high in notes and then "GOOOODDDD" at the highest note with the choir behind it. Pretty cool.

And Reign In Madness is still so weird and still doesn't sound like a Symphony X song.. lol but its good. And the bridge part of that song, the riff on the guitar sounds so similar to Walk from Pantera.

I think I'm going to write down all the similarities of the songs in this album to the older albums. I hear a lot of the older stuff.

 

[Weston]

Romeo sounds like he recycling quite a few of his past riffs. And it starts right away, the verse to Iconoclast could very well be the verse for Eve of Seduction almost note for note. I picked up on about 10 other examples where I had deja vu from just one listen.

The whole record seems a little one dimensional which is what I was expecting. Seems like there are some cool sections here and there but overall pretty un-spectuclar. Oh well.

Exact thoughts I had. Seems like the riffs are different versions of PL ones. A lot of segments as well.

 

[BlackTron]

Initially, I thought that the only reason I could really only dig End of Innocence was because I heard it first, and that it thus had more time to grow on me. I put this album in my car and forced myself to listen to it exclusively for a few days. At this point I'm pretty sure End of Innocence is my favorite song still, which for me is pretty disappointing. That they released that song early got my hopes up pretty high.

There are a lot of really cool moments on this CD exemplifying the "Symphony X Factor", but I find they're just too few and far between given the amount of (what sounds to me like) filler. A lot of it is just repackaged SX and not a lot of what is new is very exemplary.

I haven't listened to a whole lot of SX lately (though I probably did for an hour a day for four years straight shortly after Odyssey came out) so I wanted to see if it was just me not being in the mood for SX, or that my tastes had moved on. I tried (and I do mean tried) to soak in Iconoclast for awhile and then on an impulse switched CDs and listened to Fallen live.

Night and day. I regret to hear that MJR and Russ don't even like V that much. To me, Fallen sounded like sheer bad ass, while the modern aggressive songs just give off "HEAR ME BE ANGRY! RAWR LOL". The exception is End of Innocence, which seems to get it done without falling into the traps that the others do.

I agree that bad lyrics are totally holding back this album, but I also agree that it's pretty much to be expected in the genre. Hell I even used to listen to some Ayreon stuff (gasp!) so really, what is the problem? What is it about the lyrics that so many --myself included-- can't stand?

I really think it's just the presentation and the execution. Although SX had some cheesy lyrics before, they were often part of getting across something imaginative or interesting. By the time you hear "down his chosen road he rides to save the world", you're sucked into the context and it's a guilty pleasure to accept what they're saying. On this album I just feel like the message is always just "RAWR, RAWR I SAY, RAWR!", making it, in my opinion, seem trite and almost childish.

Because there are people who will act as though I am taking my opinion and forcing everyone to accept it as fact, disclaimer: it's just my fucking opinion.

 

[progmetaldan]

I've only just started listening to some of the songs on youtube, and it'll take some proper listening once the actual cd arrives to get a proper impression, but first impressions are:

I like it, its good, but it hasn't blown me away like it might have if I heard it even a year ago. I do think it'll be even more popular though, still sounds very Symphony X, though most like Paradise Lost still. Haven't heard anything heaps original really, but I still like it.

Nice and heavy, it'll be good music to work out to, and practice Lacrosse anyway! haha

oooh, listening to When All Is Lost, very nice!

 

[symphonyXjapan]

Nah, you're right, but I guess what I'm saying is that the influence from other bands shows a lot more on this album than it did on previous releases. Bands like Queen, Rainbow, Malmsteen, Kansas... these are bands that influenced Symphony X's core sound. Can you pick any Symphony X album that hasn't shown at least some influence from these bands?

With this new album, it seems that they've heavily pushed their core sound back and are instead trying to emulate other bands (Metallica, Pantera, and Meshuggah are just obvious examples). It just doesn't sit well with me; it brings to mind when Dream Theater released Octavarium and Systematic Chaos and turned to complete shit due to the obvious rip-offs from every band under the sun.



While I do think that the music fits the album's overall theme better than other tracks, I just can't get past that lackluster chorus or the unnecessary shouting of the word "bastards" throughout the outro. It's like they're trying to appease 15-year-olds who think it's badass to shout out swear words. These guys are in their 40s! Grow up! I do like the verses, though (a lot of Dio comes through here), and the instrumental sections are interesting and different for this band.



There's definitely a lot of new keyboard sounds that P hasn't used before, although a lot of them are very mechanical. For example, the intros to Innocence, Dehumanized, and Prometheus, the interludes in Bastards, and throughout Reign in Madness.

I agree about the bass parts, though. There's bits and pieces in Bastards, Heretic, and Prometheus, but no balls-to-the-wall tapping solos that Symphony X is known for. Hell, even Paradise Lost had one of those! As a bass player this deeply saddens me. The bass on this album seems to just play everything that Romeo is playing, albeit an octave lower. If I want to listen to Dream Theater, I'll listen to Dream Theater...



Very true. Every song is just loud and louder, with a few exceptions (WAIL, RIM). It's just so intense and aggressive that it has very little in common with past Symphony X releases.

Responding to the last thing you said here:

Go back and listen to the DWoT album. While doing so please try and imagine if they re-recorded it today with the better, more costly production they now have access to. Besides them adding some of the more mechanical sounds throughout Iconoclast I believe the two albums are very similar in style. I would even say Damnation Game would have this same effect too.

This more straightforward style of SyX has been around since the beginning; however, just like in Iconoclast, they added in a few interesting things here and there and had the keyboard atmosphere and solos to boot. The more proggy side of SyX didn't really start until the TiO era and continued on even more so with V. After V, it was like they slowly started going back to their more straightforward style of songwriting.

I think they went too far with PL personally as the keyboard atmosphere was mostly non-existent. I like how Iconoclast has brought that back, but at the same time I miss the more proggy and enchanting side of SyX. I am glad they at least brought that back a little via WAIL, but I really would like to see another V or even TiO. It's cool that SyX has these different styles of albums, and Iconoclast just harkens back to first 3 albums or so but with a more budgeted/modern production.

 

[symphonyXjapan]

Nah, you're right, but I guess what I'm saying is that the influence from other bands shows a lot more on this album than it did on previous releases. Bands like Queen, Rainbow, Malmsteen, Kansas... these are bands that influenced Symphony X's core sound. Can you pick any Symphony X album that hasn't shown at least some influence from these bands?

With this new album, it seems that they've heavily pushed their core sound back and are instead trying to emulate other bands (Metallica, Pantera, and Meshuggah are just obvious examples). It just doesn't sit well with me; it brings to mind when Dream Theater released Octavarium and Systematic Chaos and turned to complete shit due to the obvious rip-offs from every band under the sun.



While I do think that the music fits the album's overall theme better than other tracks, I just can't get past that lackluster chorus or the unnecessary shouting of the word "bastards" throughout the outro. It's like they're trying to appease 15-year-olds who think it's badass to shout out swear words. These guys are in their 40s! Grow up! I do like the verses, though (a lot of Dio comes through here), and the instrumental sections are interesting and different for this band.



There's definitely a lot of new keyboard sounds that P hasn't used before, although a lot of them are very mechanical. For example, the intros to Innocence, Dehumanized, and Prometheus, the interludes in Bastards, and throughout Reign in Madness.

I agree about the bass parts, though. There's bits and pieces in Bastards, Heretic, and Prometheus, but no balls-to-the-wall tapping solos that Symphony X is known for. Hell, even Paradise Lost had one of those! As a bass player this deeply saddens me. The bass on this album seems to just play everything that Romeo is playing, albeit an octave lower. If I want to listen to Dream Theater, I'll listen to Dream Theater...



Very true. Every song is just loud and louder, with a few exceptions (WAIL, RIM). It's just so intense and aggressive that it has very little in common with past Symphony X releases.

Responding to the last thing you said here:

Go back and listen to the DWoT album. While doing so please try and imagine if they re-recorded it today with the better, more costly production they now have access to. Besides them adding some of the more mechanical sounds throughout Iconoclast I believe the two albums are very similar in style. I would even say Damnation Game would have this same effect too.

This more straightforward style of SyX has been around since the beginning; however, just like in Iconoclast, they added in a few interesting things here and there and had the keyboard atmosphere and solos to boot. The more proggy side of SyX didn't really start until the TiO era and continued on even more so with V. After V, it was like they slowly started going back to their more straightforward style of songwriting.

I think they went too far with PL personally as the keyboard atmosphere was mostly non-existent. I like how Iconoclast has brought that back, but at the same time I miss the more proggy and enchanting side of SyX. I am glad they at least brought that back a little via WAIL, but I really would like to see another V or even TiO. It's cool that SyX has these different styles of albums, and Iconoclast just harkens back to first 3 albums or so but with a more budgeted/modern production. The only thing I really notice missing from the older album in Iconoclast is the neoclassical guitar elements.

 

[Moonchild141]

Responding to the last thing you said here:

Go back and listen to the DWoT album. While doing so please try and imagine if they re-recorded it today with the better, more costly production they now have access to. Besides them adding some of the more mechanical sounds throughout Iconoclast I believe the two albums are very similar in style. I would even say Damnation Game would have this same effect too.

This more straightforward style of SyX has been around since the beginning; however, just like in Iconoclast, they added in a few interesting things here and there and had the keyboard atmosphere and solos to boot. The more proggy side of SyX didn't really start until the TiO era and continued on even more so with V. After V, it was like they slowly started going back to their more straightforward style of songwriting.

I think they went too far with PL personally as the keyboard atmosphere was mostly non-existent. I like how Iconoclast has brought that back, but at the same time I miss the more proggy and enchanting side of SyX. I am glad they at least brought that back a little via WAIL, but I really would like to see another V or even TiO. It's cool that SyX has these different styles of albums, and Iconoclast just harkens back to first 3 albums or so but with a more budgeted/modern production. The only thing I really notice missing from the older album in Iconoclast is the neoclassical guitar elements.

Well another thing that is missing is how they used to have the male choirs as a big part of their sound. That seems to have disapeared totally. also in a lot of the songs on the new album there is no natural flow to the songs.There is a lot of PL recycled riffs on this record as well. Ill never mind a "heavier" direction but as i said in my last post I think they are a band that has peaked (most bands peak after 4 or 5 albums) and now your best hope is they put out consistnetly good material. I actually thought PL was a much better disc then this one I dont get the hate that one has. I just think this one seems like a lot of leftovers hangin around on MJR's archives and he decided to use em.

 

[jeffhanneman]

Reign in Madness second part is very much Pantera-like (The Walk?), the vocals the riff.

 

[Postulate]

This more straightforward style of SyX has been around since the beginning;

SX would never record Winter's Dream or A Lesson Before Dying right now. Or Divine Wings, or Candlelight Fantasia...even Premonition would probably be out of the question.

 

[Pamonha]

Lesson before dying should be re-recorded. The jazzy solo section is killer. Russel singing "living a timeless tale, behold the truth unveiled" would kick ass

 

[Kenneth R.]

You keep saying that, but I keep kind of chuckling a bit because you have a Turisas tune in your signature area. I looked up that tune .. pretty far from elite lyrics. Here's some of of the weaker lyrical moments.

You see your blade cut off his head
Another father ends up dead
No time to think who will miss him at nights
Another slash and someone's husband dies

See the fear in their eyes
"Their lines are scattered, hunt them down!"
None were left alive to tell their wives

Just kidding you man .. just found it kind of ironic.


Britt

Touche hahaha. Yeah, sometimes I like a cheesy feel-good metal drinking song. But on the whole, I can't just listen to that kind of stuff 24/7.

Then go listen to one of the thousands of progressive and/or power metal bands with amazingly crafted lyrics. What's that? You can't find any?

I can find quite a few amazingly gifted bands. I never stipulated that they had to be power metal or prog. Most aren't. I listen to what I like, and so do you. I happen to have what I would consider strict standards for lyrics and arrangement. My favorite "band" is Peter Gabriel. I'd have to round out a top 3 with Marillion & Rush.

Even Turisas won't make a song as badly written, lyrically, as some of the crap I saw posted here from the new disc. But that's metal, as some have said: often crap lyrics about darkness or fighting, swords or magic and stuff. It comes with the territory, and some bands have the rare ability to sing about that stuff and do it with style, with lyrical competence. Most don't. Just sayin'.

 

[Sep3]

I don't really care much about Turisas, but they're pretty good and energetic live. Same goes with Finntroll, although I like their music too as I find it amusing. I generally don't like humoristic music, but they do it right. Ever seen weird polka dancing breaking out all of the sudden in a moshpit? Apparently you haven't seen Finntroll live. These two bands are probably the best finnish festival bands that I've seen, they can really take their audience, and they get even better if you're really drunk!

 

[metalxmetalx]

You keep saying that, but I keep kind of chuckling a bit because you have a Turisas tune in your signature area. I looked up that tune .. pretty far from elite lyrics. Here's some of of the weaker lyrical moments.

You see your blade cut off his head
Another father ends up dead
No time to think who will miss him at nights
Another slash and someone's husband dies

See the fear in their eyes
"Their lines are scattered, hunt them down!"
None were left alive to tell their wives

Britt

Oh, it seems you got him there!

 

[KevinMoore]

Lesson before dying should be re-recorded. The jazzy solo section is killer.

When i hear passages like this, or "The Edge of Forever", "Through the looking Glass", "Egypt"... i think about how much potential, opend mind and creativity had the band in the 90s. The only thing they didn't own was the tools and tecnologies for the "killer" productions at a high level sound we have today.