IN FLAMES Clayman Re-recorded 2020

[TheJestersDoor]

R2R is when they stopped writing actual riffs, dropped their tuning and started using shitty generic chugging rhythm guitars. Also when they heavily implemented electronic beats. Sure, Colony already had way too much keyboards, but R2R was overwhelming in that regard. So there you go, that's concisely why.

The only song in a different tuning is Transparent. Other than that the tunings used are either C standard (C-F-A♯-D♯-G-C) or Drop A#, which is the same but with the 6th string tuned to match the 4th (A#-F-A♯-D♯-G-C) and since STYE the band has exclusively used Drop A#. I wouldn't call tuning in the same key but dropping the 6th a drastic change, and plenty of pre-R2R tracks use this tuning, Colony, Ordinary Story, Pinball Map, and ...ATFRT spring to mind. literally the only tuning difference between TJR and the classics and modern In Flames is the bottom string moving down 1 full tone so that the 4th 5th and 6th strings play an open chord. I agree that the riff writing style has changed but that is not down to tuning, as songs like Ordinary Story prove.

 

[TheJestersDoor]

In my few day absence i'm sad i missed the SOAPF talk, I have so much to say about that album

 

[DE4life]

There isn't a time limit bro, express your love for this beautiful album

 

[drawntoblack]

I wouldn't call tuning in the same key but dropping the 6th a drastic change

I definitely would.

There is a reason why most bands around that time with dropped tuning tended to write the same stuff - simplified chugging same note rhythms instead of actually interesting riffs. And it's no coincidence that In Flames started doing the same at the very same time they changed their tuning immediately after starting to tour with American bands who were doing it. Children of Bodom suffered from the exact same stylistic change and tuning change, at the same time. While Clayman might have had a dropped tuning in a song or two, IF still used almost exclusively C standard pre-STYE.
I really struggle to think of a good melodeath band that used drop tunings. And while you would think that one string being a full step offset would be negligible, it really feels different and makes you play the guitar differently.

And in fact it's not in the same key anymore because that low string dictates the key of a song in 99% of time. C is the golden middle point, low and heavy but retains clarity. B is pushing it but doable (Carcass - Heartwork, although that is more of an exception that its a rule, as that album has a lush and tight guitar tone that is very hard to replicate). A and A# is when things get muddy and when classic riffs start to not groove anymore.

 

[eochaid]

Of course. It was the year 2001 when they toured with slipknot. Then, the next album, R2R was significatively influenced by the american bands.

 

[TheJestersDoor]

I definitely would.

There is a reason why most bands around that time with dropped tuning tended to write the same stuff - simplified chugging same note rhythms instead of actually interesting riffs. And it's no coincidence that In Flames started doing the same at the very same time they changed their tuning immediately after starting to tour with American bands who were doing it. Children of Bodom suffered from the exact same stylistic change and tuning change, at the same time. While Clayman might have had a dropped tuning in a song or two, IF still used almost exclusively C standard pre-STYE.
I really struggle to think of a good melodeath band that used drop tunings. And while you would think that one string being a full step offset would be negligible, it really feels different and makes you play the guitar differently.

And in fact it's not in the same key anymore because that low string dictates the key of a song in 99% of time. C is the golden middle point, low and heavy but retains clarity. B is pushing it but doable (Carcass - Heartwork, although that is more of an exception that its a rule, as that album has a lush and tight guitar tone that is very hard to replicate). A and A# is when things get muddy and when classic riffs start to not groove anymore.

Dark tranquillity, scar symmetry

Edit: I know it can change the feel, I play guitar, I just don't put the sudden change down to tuning because IF had been messing with tuning for years

 

[TheJestersDoor]

There isn't a time limit bro, express your love for this beautiful album

Oh boy. Well it's important to remember I first heard this album because my brother played it and in an In Flames fan and SoaPF came out a few months before I turned 13(!) how to make all of you feel old

At the time it was so different to the American rock and metal I was listening to (Avenged sevenfold, Howard era KSE, breaking Benjamin etc)

Since then SoaPF sort of opened the doors to me listening to much heavier things, be it Dark tranquillity and other Melodeath, be it Invent Animate and other djenty Metalcore things, it was definitely a gateway album for me and thats where a lot of my love for it comes from.

I also just wholly believe that it is a fundamentally well written album and definitely the magnum opus of Bjorn's solo songwriting. There are songs I don't listen to as much, but a lot of the songs still find themselves into play lists to this day, and I'm lucky to have seen a good spread of songs from the album live over the years (Deliver us, All for me, Fear, WTDSD, Darker times, and Ropes even)

The production is personally my favorite this side of Clayman (the first one before anyone tries to do a funny) down to its clarity in tone and "expensive" sound. It's not perfect production, but it fits the music perfectly. I also feel like Anders is strong on this one, there are moments here or there where he goes full Anders, but as a whole it strikes a balance between still being able to scream (SC onwards there is a definite technique change, live and studio, which I don't mind but I prefer the sound here) and being able to pull off strong cleans (looking at you Ropes and WTDSD) on top of this it's the last album IF have done that if say doesn't have a problem with Cliche Choruses. SC has some great ones as does ITM but generally quality has gone downhill since. I'm comparing it to only new ones as I find it strictly pointless to compare material pre and post Jesper as it's like comparing beer and wine - I'm not saying one is definitively better, and there is good and bad in both, but they're fundamentally different.

SOAPF was a good mission statement from IF of what they could achieve post jesper and its definitely a unique album in the catalogue in terms of sound and even vibe, it manages to have a consistent tone (as does siren charms, SC just seriously lacks consistent quality as we discussed a while back) that I really appreciate and even lyrically it's a lot more grounded and less dumb than albums since. It has its moments yes, again before people point out specific lines 

I really feel like if SC had been brewed a little longer it could have been a solid - still different - follow up, and if battles was skipped and we went STRAIGHT to ITM, with Roberto Laghi and Daniel Bergstrand that album could again be realistic follow up, and we wouldn't have had the up amd down shitshow we've had since Jesper left.

Thanks for listening to my Ted talk

 

[DE4life]

Of course. It was the year 2001 when they toured with slipknot. Then, the next album, R2R was significatively influenced by the american bands.

I read an interview from a number of years ago where Anders pretty much admitted straight out they wanted to crack the American market. Of course he also said the band was just playing the music they wanted and so on, but it's a hell of a coincidence that just after touring the States with the likes of Slipknot their sound changed so drastically to closer resemble the nu-metal and metalcore bands of the time. STYE especially.

I'm not sure what prompted them to switch back to something resembling their older sound with Come Clarity, but that record's massive success may in part be owed to the roots they laid with Reroute and STYE. TTL being included as part of guitar hero certainly helped a lot as well.

 

[DE4life]

The production is personally my favorite this side of Clayman (the first one before anyone tries to do a funny) down to its clarity in tone and "expensive" sound. It's not perfect production, but it fits the music perfectly. I also feel like Anders is strong on this one, there are moments here or there where he goes full Anders, but as a whole it strikes a balance between still being able to scream (SC onwards there is a definite technique change, live and studio, which I don't mind but I prefer the sound here) and being able to pull off strong cleans (looking at you Ropes and WTDSD) on top of this it's the last album IF have done that if say doesn't have a problem with Cliche Choruses. SC has some great ones as does ITM but generally quality has gone downhill since. I'm comparing it to only new ones as I find it strictly pointless to compare material pre and post Jesper as it's like comparing beer and wine - I'm not saying one is definitively better, and there is good and bad in both, but they're fundamentally different.

SOAPF was a good mission statement from IF of what they could achieve post jesper and its definitely a unique album in the catalogue in terms of sound and even vibe, it manages to have a consistent tone (as does siren charms, SC just seriously lacks consistent quality as we discussed a while back) that I really appreciate and even lyrically it's a lot more grounded and less dumb than albums since. It has its moments yes, again before people point out specific lines 

I completely agree with you on the production. I think it suits SOAPF perfectly and much like Clayman helps hide Anders' vocal weaknesses rather than highlight them as ASOP and SC did. Some of Anders' screams on SOAPF are as good as they were on Come Clarity, albeit in shorter bursts, and although he still can't sing the production does a great job of hiding that with various layering techniques to make him sound passable and sometimes even good without making the autotuning painfully obvious, as is often the case on Battles and ITM.

I disagree with you on Siren Charms having a consistent tone though. For me part of the reason the album is so jarring is because of how inconsistent the tone and production is. A lot of the 'heavier' songs have similar production - IPV, Everything's Gone, Paralyzed, Monsters in the Ballroom, Filtered Truth - but then you've got songs like With Eyes Wide Open, Through Oblivion and Dead Eyes which sound like they were inserted from different albums entirely (and are arguably the best songs on the record in terms of actually sounding consistent and professional). WEWO in particular has much cleaner production which fits the song nicely but makes it sound like it doesn't belong with the rest of the tracks. You also have weird songs like the title track and When The World Explodes which are hard to categorise, and Rusted Nail which sounds like a SOAPF B-Side but with significantly worse production - even compared to the rest of the songs on SC. The bonus tracks also sound like they came from completely different sessions, particularly Become the Sky which I like but can't help but notice has pretty poor production quality and sounds more like a demo than a mastered track.

 

[TheJestersDoor]

No I agree it's not entirely consistent but as a whole it has a fairly consistent tone, moreso that Battles (plastic can't have a tone), and nothing on it really sticks out on a sore thumb to me anymore tone wise, it's more down to varying quality. For sure I agree the softer songs play to the albums strengths more though. Honestly though once I heard the full instrumental album on youtube it added a lot of depth to the album and a lot of sections I disregarded I heard from a new perspective, partly down to the iffy production (It sounds like they tried to do SOAPF production again in a different studio and got the mixing off on top of that) and partly down to the hit and miss performance of Anders on the album. hasn't got a shade on anything else the band has done, but I feel like if the mix was remastered and some of Ander's vocals were redone, the album could have been a solid if unspectacular follow up to SOAPF. (oh and throw the bonus tracks on the main album for christs sake, they're better than Rusted nail and that was the lead single!)

side note how was rusted nail chosen as a lead single? honestly the verses are SO bad. if they completely redid the verses the song would be good as I enjoy the intro and the chorus but oh boy do the verses just kill the song. Honestly I feel like Paralyzed would have been a better first single, its not too dissimilar in structure to say, WTDSD, Deliver us, Cloud connected even! its a fairly by the numbers modern In Flames track, just with the SC sound.

 

[eochaid]

I'm not sure what prompted them to switch back to something resembling their older sound with Come Clarity, but that record's massive success may in part be owed to the roots they laid with Reroute and STYE. TTL being included as part of guitar hero certainly helped a lot as well.

Have in mind that their music was about compromise. Meaning that Bjorn and Jesper did they part and Anders did his.

Maybe, that's an option, the both of them, or one of them, grew tired of the lack of riffing and decided that it was time to go to guitar melodies once again.

I also guess that R2R and STYE was some kind of agreement of the band trying to reach a wider market. It didn't work as good as they expected or it did but the guitarists didn't want to play that way anymore

If we have in mind that asop, production apart, is somewhat similar to cc, I mean most of the guitar work, and that some of Anders lyrics in that album seemed to imply that he was not that happy about the new direction, then it could imply some kind of disagreement between the leading heads of the band.

 

[eochaid]

I also remember Jesper saying that asop was going to.sound massive. So, I guess, that was downgraded in the final.mix by whoever did that.

Of course, he was not aware of how Anders was working his vocals or the lyrics.

 

[drawntoblack]

Dark tranquillity, scar symmetry

Edit: I know it can change the feel, I play guitar, I just don't put the sudden change down to tuning because IF had been messing with tuning for years

Scar Symmetry are the 101 definition of chugging riffs. I do like them a lot but they aren't proving your point.
Dark Tranquillity was always in standard tunings throughout their golden era, mostly C# with Haven being in Eb. They only dropped down to Drop B on Fiction, which, again, may or may not be coincidentally when they dropped their signature fast-paced pedal riffs for chugging. And only some songs are in Drop B, songs with their usual riffs are still in C# on Fiction. I absolutely adore Fiction but it sounds quite a lot more modern to their previous golden trilogy and there is a bit of stylistic change.

@eochaid in those years they toured a lot with bands like Slipknot and Nevermore, as well as with all those trendy metalcore bands that were all tuning very low.

Speaking of DT, they are now in studio working on their new album. From what I've read online, Chris Amott and the other guitarist guy from Armageddon are now full members of the band and contributed to music. I'm quite looking forward to hearing new songs. Chris is technically a top notch player, and both very underrated and quite better than his brother. I remember listening to his band Armageddon and it being quite melodic and alright. I'm a bit disappointed that now both of DT's long-term guitarists are out, they really made their riffs and melodies stand out from the rest of the scene.
Atoma was for my taste a little bit too slow paced and gothic in feel with guitars being of almost auxiliary importance, with keyboards and vocals taking the spotlight. If I remember right, that album was mostly written by the band's drummer and keys player so it makes sense. Hopefully this line up change makes them go back to being a guitar-oriented melodeath band again.

 

[TheJestersDoor]

okay fine you got me but my point of drop tuned doesn't equal bad I stand by.

I'm super hyped as I only got on board the DT train after Atoma came out so it's the first new music i'll have heard by them. Atoma is a good album but yeah, a bit monotonous. From what I understand it's not a much loved album but of modern DT albums We Are The Void is by far my favorite.

It'll be interesting to see what the new boys can come up with, hopefully something goooood.

 

[DE4life]

No I agree it's not entirely consistent but as a whole it has a fairly consistent tone, moreso that Battles (plastic can't have a tone), and nothing on it really sticks out on a sore thumb to me anymore tone wise, it's more down to varying quality. For sure I agree the softer songs play to the albums strengths more though. Honestly though once I heard the full instrumental album on youtube it added a lot of depth to the album and a lot of sections I disregarded I heard from a new perspective, partly down to the iffy production (It sounds like they tried to do SOAPF production again in a different studio and got the mixing off on top of that) and partly down to the hit and miss performance of Anders on the album. hasn't got a shade on anything else the band has done, but I feel like if the mix was remastered and some of Ander's vocals were redone, the album could have been a solid if unspectacular follow up to SOAPF. (oh and throw the bonus tracks on the main album for christs sake, they're better than Rusted nail and that was the lead single!)

side note how was rusted nail chosen as a lead single? honestly the verses are SO bad. if they completely redid the verses the song would be good as I enjoy the intro and the chorus but oh boy do the verses just kill the song. Honestly I feel like Paralyzed would have been a better first single, its not too dissimilar in structure to say, WTDSD, Deliver us, Cloud connected even! its a fairly by the numbers modern In Flames track, just with the SC sound.

I actually quite like SC instrumental. It's good background music and you hear a few things that are covered up by Anders' vocals on the regular tracks. It's still far from what Bjorn is capable of, but the vocals definitely make the album worse rather than better in many cases. A lot of the times it feels like Anders was doing his own thing on vocals, totally separate from what Bjorn was going for. It's weird how often the verse instruments don't share any kind of rhythm with the vocal performance. Like both were recorded without the other's knowledge and then slapped together blindly. There was no such problem on SOAPF so it was and still is baffling to me how they fucked it up so bad on Siren Charms.

My belief is that they chose Rusted Nail as the lead single because it is the most 'traditional' sounding IF song on the record. Paralyzed is okay but lacks the energy you'd expect from an In Flames track. The problem with Rusted Nail is simply that it's not very good, at all, and the production is laughably bad. Both the opening solo and the regular solo on the song sound sloppy as hell, not helped by Bjorn's wah pedal abuse. The verses are boring and Anders sounds terrible. The chorus would be fine if not for the production, and the fact Anders' vocals make it so hard to hear the melodies playing in the background, which are actually decent.

 

[DE4life]

I also remember Jesper saying that asop was going to.sound massive. So, I guess, that was downgraded in the final.mix by whoever did that.

Of course, he was not aware of how Anders was working his vocals or the lyrics.

It sounded massively shit so he was partially correct I guess.

 

[eochaid]

yes. But I guess he was thinking massive like CC or Clayman.

 

[DE4life]

yes. But I guess he was thinking massive like CC or Clayman.

You can blame Anders for some things but Jesper and Bjorn must have agreed on that awful guitar tone. I am puzzled as to how either of them heard how the guitars sounded and figured 'this is okay'. The tone is so weak that it robs every riff and lead of any power. Mirror's Truth sounds SO much heavier live than on ASOP. It sucks that they produced the album that way.

 

[eochaid]

Ok. We're talking about a guy, Bjorn, that did a solo for metaphor and then found out that the solo was not there until the final mix was done.

So I'm not so sure about how.much they were in control of the final mix of anything.

 

[DE4life]

I can't imagine with Bjorn and Jesper were that distanced from the product. Jesper has always said he really likes ASOP so for whatever reason I think he was happy with how it sounded.