Kenneth R.
Cináed
i'd be surprised if the anus fanboys didn't believe something along those lines. :Smug:SunMontage said:
Indo-European Roots of Metal
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no country for old wainds
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Silent Song said:
Meh, in a sense, I'm not sure I contradicted that. Anywho, Demiurge made good points, let's see them get countered.
Cythraul
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Demiurge said:
That doesn't even matter. Pentatonic translates as "five tones" so that could include any scale built from only five notes, and there are pentatonic scales found in the music of other cultures which aren't necessarily the same minor pentatonic that's found in blues and rock music. The minor pentatonic is so characteristic of blues that even if it wasn't invented by blues musicians it's still fair to say that said scales are almost exclusive to the genre.
Demiurge
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Gallantry over Docility said:
It's a hopeless argument. Assume for the sake of it that it's completely true that Black Sabbath developed as a result of the blues. What are the implications of this for Graveland's "Thousand Swords"? It draws its primary inspiration from music not of the US, blues or otherwise. Consider also what such an argument drives at. One type of music cannot be equated to its predecessor. It could even be the antithesis of its antecedent. Also, when you take a style of music and start going backwards in time, you run up against a nearly endless regression until you come upon a guy singing while another bangs sticks together. What does this mean to me and how does what does it say about the specific thing under examination? The point at which you stop the regression is self-serving, disingenuous, and arbitrary.
Demiurge
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Cythraul said:
It's most familiar to us because of our location and the general popularity of the genre. There are different pentatonic scales, I realize. You're well educated in music, you're aware that what's known as "blues scale" does appear elsewhere independent of the blues and prior to its development.
there are a few musical intervals that are universal. for example, the octave is present in all known musical traditions. this is because of the relationship between the fundamental tone to all other tones in the harmonic series. because an octave has twice the frequency of the fundamental tone, it is a ration of 2:1. other common intervals, such as the perfect fourth and perfect fifth, not coincidentally fall along even ratios. that is why the pentatonic scale is found almost universally. most folk music traditions, be they from europe, north america, south america, or africa include a pentatonic scale of some sort. or so i was told.
Kenneth R.
Cináed
asian and middle-eastern traditional music work on different scales than western theory.
Gallantry and the rest, you simply cannot claim that Black Sabbath and similar bands were inventing metal devoid of influence from blues as some form of new genius "aryan" music. you can twist around the truth into as many knots as you want, but it stands.
Gallantry and the rest, you simply cannot claim that Black Sabbath and similar bands were inventing metal devoid of influence from blues as some form of new genius "aryan" music. you can twist around the truth into as many knots as you want, but it stands.
no country for old wainds
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I wrote a long post on this before, but it was swallowed up by UM. Anyway, I dont really see why it matters if metal has black influences or not? Who cares? Even if you are racist, I can name but four or five blacks in metal, and I have never ever met a black guy that liked metal.
And surely Metal has influences in black music, as all rock has influences in black music. Whats the big deal? These old black blues guys were highly talented musicians. Robert Johnson alone is probably the most influential guitarist of the last century.
And if people like blues, I highly suggest they check out the haunting west african music of Ali Fourke Toure, the polyphony of African chanting and noises of King Sunny Ade, and early Baaba Maal. Excellent shit.
And surely Metal has influences in black music, as all rock has influences in black music. Whats the big deal? These old black blues guys were highly talented musicians. Robert Johnson alone is probably the most influential guitarist of the last century.
And if people like blues, I highly suggest they check out the haunting west african music of Ali Fourke Toure, the polyphony of African chanting and noises of King Sunny Ade, and early Baaba Maal. Excellent shit.
Kenneth R.
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Cythraul
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speed said:
There's a cd out there, that shouldn't be too hard to find in the classical section at your local music store that features the chanting of the Aka Pygmies in addition to some of Gyorgi Ligeti's piano etudes, which were very much influenced by African music, and a couple of Steve Reich's pieces which owe quite a bit to the music of the Aka Pygmies. That African chanting can be pretty interesting, especially considering that the songs are passed down through oral tradition; it's very dense, polyphonic, and polyrhythmic music.
Cythraul said:
Now that sounds right up my alley. Ligeti's requiem is my favorite piece of music ever.
Demiurge
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speed said:
Have you heard Langgaard's Music of the Spheres? If you enjoy Ligeti, it's hard to imagine you wouldn't like this piece.
Kenneth R.
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Cythraul
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speed said:
His Requiem is definitely one of my all-time favorites as well. You really have to hear his piano etudes. They're some of the best I've heard; right up there with the greats like Chopin or Ravel. Honestly, listen to his piano etudes; some of it is ingenious stuff. There's a cd out that was released by Naxos containing a collection of his etudes performed by a lady named Idil Biret. Some of the pieces on that cd are also on the cd I mentioned in my previous post. Those are performed by a French guy named Pierre-Laurent Aimard. I can honestly say that Aimard does a much better job with the etudes than Idil Biret does but if you want a more comprehensive collection of his etudes then look for the cd that was released by Naxos; it shouldn't be too difficult to find.
anonymousnick2001
World's Greatest Vocalist
Demiurge said:
I like where the thread is going, but I'll just add that blues fans claiming this are suffering from the same problem as those attempting to define metal as an Indo-European phenomenon, etc. We musn't look at music as something belonging to races. Especially a genre as cross-pollinating and globally situated as metal. As Demiurge himself noted, discovering the roots of music will lead to a never-ending backtrack through history until the first notes were ever rung out by human beings. It does not matter if metal was the product of blacks or whites. It does not matter.
I, too, enjoyed what I heard of Ligeti's Requiem.
sonofhendrix13
some loser
anonymousnick2001 said:
People who wish to defend their own cultures only want things of their cultural background; otherwise they become adulterated and destroyed.
America as a whole has no culture and is an example of this.
Anyone who preaches against this is awash in emotion, possibly revenge, if they are not Indo-European.
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