interesting.........and I live so close to it....

I'm not sure about the WTC, but the Pentagon looks totally wrong, as does the footage of the crash site in Pennsylvania. There's just not enough devastation at either site to convince me a passenger jet crashed there. Whether Bush is involved or not, there's something we are not being told.
 
Lunar Still said:
I'm not sure about the WTC, but the Pentagon looks totally wrong, as does the footage of the crash site in Pennsylvania. There's just not enough devastation at either site to convince me a passenger jet crashed there. Whether Bush is involved or not, there's something we are not being told.

@lunar and zmetallica

It is a possibility that there is something not being told, sure. But what is more likely; that militant islamic extremists attacked our country and interests as they have done so often in the past, or that our government and it's officials masterminded a plot that left 3000 Americans dead just so they could go into Afghanistan and make a shitload of highly suspicious funds because they don't already have enough money?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

It would seem to me that if someone wanted to go into Iraq for oil, and they were going to make a whole plot to make that happen (as if they had to do anything other than say 'WMDs possible and he's killing his own people) - the mastermind would simply pin the whole thing on Iraq in the first place and go in immediately, right?

And as far as the Pentagon and Pennsylvania sites go - nothing seems out of the ordinary when you really think about it. Sure in the movies planes leave huge fucking holes in buildings, but look at the WTC. Everyone agrees a plane was flown into that, but the holes don't look too big. Also the pentagon is a far more rigid structure. A better question to ask is 'is it possible that a plane that size could do that damage'? I believe the answer is yes - as do many physicists.

edit: another thing to consider is how 'conspiracy theories' spring up.
 
The only part i truly found suspicious is the "Cell Phone" calls made from the planes... personally, I can never get cell phone service on a plane, and the fact that they just so happened to be recorded makes it even more fishy to me...
 
FretsAflame said:
Because she couldn't have been hassled because she didn't have her pass and punched an officer? That's the only harrassment she's received that I know of. And why would the democrats want to reopen the 911 commission when the majority of it's members were officials in the clinton administration? The 9/11 Commission Report is often touted as a 'clinton coverup' so to speak.

Granted there are 1 or 2 things I personally find compelling, but I give these videos very little merit. In my opinion, it is perfectly fine to ask questions, particularly if you sense there is something amiss. What is not okay, however, is NOT asking questions under the guise of actually asking questions. When I watch a video and come away with more questions on how the film was made, by who, why, when, where they got their information, what their sources were, what scientific evidence (verifiable) confirms some of their suspicions etc; I do not think of it as a compelling video in the aggregate. Many of the theories and explanations offered simply left me with more questions; is it possible that cracking concrete sounds like explosive? Is that a person jumping of their own free will? Are those terrorists who were claimed to be 'alive' in fact alive, or are there people with their same name alive and well, and was there confusion in identifying them? (This is actually the case with several of the people he mentioned).

It seems to me that this video glosses over far too many facts, and even more questions to actually be worthwhile. If this video leaves you with questions I encourage you to look on your own, rather than take this video as hard fact incarnate, especially when the motives of the maker can be called into question as well.

My advice if you want it: If you're going to question something, question everything.

I live by your last statement.

First of all, McKinney has been harrassed on several occasions at the Capitol. This isn't the first. Sure, she didn't have her badge on but Bill Frist, Trent Lott and the like routinely don't wear their badges either, and are never harrassed by the police. This was her whole point with this incident. She shouldn't have gotten physical, regardless.

The 9/11 Commission Report and the Clinton connection have absolutely nothing to do with the attacks of 9/11. That mini-scandal was about the thwarted attacks of '99 and how they were handled. The report also raises many questions that have yet to be answered.

The videos are both compelling and ridiculous, but they really don't show much that hasn't been said before. In a way, they are kinda like a Michael Moore production - some of the fact gathering (and the presentation thereof) is a little shady, but he still brings up points that cannot be ignored. I don't know what to think, but I do know for a fact that there is a precedent for the U.S. government to conduct conspiracies and coverups. Something fishy is going on, but I still don't know if it's something that's for our own good in the grand scheme of things - or not.

I'm a network newshound, and I watch them all. Here are a couple of pretty significant mysteries related to 9/11 and the war on terror that I remember being covered by the major networks and "forgot" about. This is from what I remember seeing - not something I got from any conspiracy videos or whatnot -

1. A man in Pakistan claims that his picture was shown as one of the 9/11 hijackers - but he is alive and well and owns a store in Pakistan. The man is outraged. WTF happened to this story???

2. After the attacks of 9/11, traces of anthrax were found in the trunk of the rental car the hijackers had left behind in Boston. Also, the first person to die of anthrax poisoning post-9/11 was the ex-husband of a woman who rented an apartment to two of the terrorists in Florida. But then the Bush administration tried to blame it on some white dude scientist, until he proved his innocence. WTF is that all about???

3. Can someone tell me again why the fuck Saddam Hussein is in jail? I mean, GWB and his boys gave Saddam and his cronies 48 hours to get out of Iraq before we started bombing the shit outta Baghdad, right? So, in other words, they were gonna let him go if he left on his own. I remember talk about him living in exile in Syria.

We used the WMD argument to go into Iraq (without the permission of the U.N. - the organization that we started and convinced the world to become members of - thus making our invasion illegal) and the same WMD argument to depose Saddam Hussein, but we never found the WMD's!!! According to Scott Ritter (who was the head U.N. weapons inspector for Iraq in the 90's) and many others, Saddam didn't even have the stuff after Desert Storm. So then, after the Bush team conceded that there were no WMD's in Iraq, they decided to pull at people's heart strings and use the good ol' "genocide" charge to keep Saddam Hussein behind bars. Let's evaluate the genocide.... Third World arab country ruled by a psychotic dictator...attempted and subsequently foiled assassination plot...immediate execution for the perpetrators and accomplices...ummm, so fucking what? What business is it of ours? Ok, here's the other genocide charge - Third World arab country ruled by a psychotic dictator...civil war with the Kurdish people in the north...dictator says "Stop the unrest now or I will kill all of you"...Kurds keep rebelling...dictator kills them all...I say again, what the fuck business is it of ours? I think it's beyond arrogant for us to run around the world and say "Live like us - it's the best" and "Fight wars like us, or we'll call you terrorists and insurgents" to people and cultures that have been on this planet for thousands and thousands of years before us here in America.

Saddam Hussein is still a piece of shit, but he did warn us that the people of Iraq would never surrender. So what's it gonna be for Iraq - Big Macs and Levi's or slamming your forehead repeatedly with the devil's handbook? We shall see.
 
FretsAflame said:
@lunar and zmetallica

It is a possibility that there is something not being told, sure. But what is more likely; that militant islamic extremists attacked our country and interests as they have done so often in the past,
tell me what exacly have they done so often in the past-when,where and the most important-WHY?or that our government and it's officials masterminded a plot that left 3000 Americans dead just so they could go into Afghanistan and make a shitload of highly suspicious funds because they don't already have enough money?

u really think ur government gives a fuck about 3000ppl + or -when it comes to interests?!??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

It would seem to me that if someone wanted to go into Iraq for oil, and they were going to make a whole plot to make that happen (as if they had to do anything other than say 'WMDs possible and he's killing his own people) - the mastermind would simply pin the whole thing on Iraq in the first place and go in immediately, right?

offcourse not, couse they need a good excuse for an attack and a strong ideology to controll the american ppl to hate "the enemy" or whoever, and to believe their government

And as far as the Pentagon and Pennsylvania sites go - nothing seems out of the ordinary when you really think about it. Sure in the movies planes leave huge fucking holes in buildings, but look at the WTC. Everyone agrees a plane was flown into that, but the holes don't look too big. Also the pentagon is a far more rigid structure. A better question to ask is 'is it possible that a plane that size could do that damage'? I believe the answer is yes - as do many physicists.

edit: another thing to consider is how 'conspiracy theories' spring up.

anyway, it doesnt even really mater what is truth or not, since we are all controlled, more or less, and have no real influence to whatever is going on...

the sheep are made to follow....choke back the puke and swallow.........:rock:
 
We are puppets of reality... I've always said that...

both FretsAflame and MetalKingdom have good valid points...
I think a lot of things in that video is a bit on the bullshit side,
but also: a lot of otther pints make me just wonder...
yes, conspiracy theories spread around like poison in your veins,
but then again... who really knows?!

When I heard about 9/11 on TV back in 2001, I was at my brother's
house, pet sitting his mini zoo while he was away on business.
I remember he wanted me to record him something on TV, and the tape was already ready when the reports of 9/11 cut in.
I recorded the entire 9/11 day!!! a great piece of history to have..
here is where metalkingdom brings valid points :

Everybody talked about the second explosion..... whats up with that?
How come no one talked about it anymore after that day?

Eye whitnesses kept saying: "I heard an explosion and then the plane hit the second tower"
who knows..... maybe the planes alone did not make those huge buildings to fall?

too many question marks... I'm not sure what to think anymore.


One last thing though, that I keep saying to myself...
if it really is a cover up... you really think a goverment can keep that a secret? no way.... its too risky... which is why I tend to be very skeptical to "conspiracy theories" like that....
 
Dead_Lioness said:
One last thing though, that I keep saying to myself...
if it really is a cover up... you really think a goverment can keep that a secret? no way.... its too risky... which is why I tend to be very skeptical to "conspiracy theories" like that....

Also there are much easier ways to get power and money - anyhow I'm out but I'll be back, hope you all have a great day :)
 
metalkingdom said:
I live by your last statement.

First of all, McKinney has been harrassed on several occasions at the Capitol. This isn't the first. Sure, she didn't have her badge on but Bill Frist, Trent Lott and the like routinely don't wear their badges either, and are never harrassed by the police. This was her whole point with this incident. She shouldn't have gotten physical, regardless.

The 9/11 Commission Report and the Clinton connection have absolutely nothing to do with the attacks of 9/11. That mini-scandal was about the thwarted attacks of '99 and how they were handled. The report also raises many questions that have yet to be answered.

The videos are both compelling and ridiculous, but they really don't show much that hasn't been said before. In a way, they are kinda like a Michael Moore production - some of the fact gathering (and the presentation thereof) is a little shady, but he still brings up points that cannot be ignored. I don't know what to think, but I do know for a fact that there is a precedent for the U.S. government to conduct conspiracies and coverups. Something fishy is going on, but I still don't know if it's something that's for our own good in the grand scheme of things - or not.

I'm a network newshound, and I watch them all. Here are a couple of pretty significant mysteries related to 9/11 and the war on terror that I remember being covered by the major networks and "forgot" about. This is from what I remember seeing - not something I got from any conspiracy videos or whatnot -

1. A man in Pakistan claims that his picture was shown as one of the 9/11 hijackers - but he is alive and well and owns a store in Pakistan. The man is outraged. WTF happened to this story???

2. After the attacks of 9/11, traces of anthrax were found in the trunk of the rental car the hijackers had left behind in Boston. Also, the first person to die of anthrax poisoning post-9/11 was the ex-husband of a woman who rented an apartment to two of the terrorists in Florida. But then the Bush administration tried to blame it on some white dude scientist, until he proved his innocence. WTF is that all about???

3. Can someone tell me again why the fuck Saddam Hussein is in jail? I mean, GWB and his boys gave Saddam and his cronies 48 hours to get out of Iraq before we started bombing the shit outta Baghdad, right? So, in other words, they were gonna let him go if he left on his own. I remember talk about him living in exile in Syria.

We used the WMD argument to go into Iraq (without the permission of the U.N. - the organization that we started and convinced the world to become members of - thus making our invasion illegal) and the same WMD argument to depose Saddam Hussein, but we never found the WMD's!!! According to Scott Ritter (who was the head U.N. weapons inspector for Iraq in the 90's) and many others, Saddam didn't even have the stuff after Desert Storm. So then, after the Bush team conceded that there were no WMD's in Iraq, they decided to pull at people's heart strings and use the good ol' "genocide" charge to keep Saddam Hussein behind bars. Let's evaluate the genocide.... Third World arab country ruled by a psychotic dictator...attempted and subsequently foiled assassination plot...immediate execution for the perpetrators and accomplices...ummm, so fucking what? What business is it of ours? Ok, here's the other genocide charge - Third World arab country ruled by a psychotic dictator...civil war with the Kurdish people in the north...dictator says "Stop the unrest now or I will kill all of you"...Kurds keep rebelling...dictator kills them all...I say again, what the fuck business is it of ours? I think it's beyond arrogant for us to run around the world and say "Live like us - it's the best" and "Fight wars like us, or we'll call you terrorists and insurgents" to people and cultures that have been on this planet for thousands and thousands of years before us here in America.

Saddam Hussein is still a piece of shit, but he did warn us that the people of Iraq would never surrender. So what's it gonna be for Iraq - Big Macs and Levi's or slamming your forehead repeatedly with the devil's handbook? We shall see.

Let me start by saying that I'm gonna try not to go all complete counterpoint because I'm enjoying the conversational tone of this thread despite how much I disagree with a lot of it lol :)

I would like to look more closely at McKinney's alleged harassments, but as of now I don't see much more than conjecture. Frist, Lott, if they weren't wearing their passes (which I do in fact doubt) and they got through then that is terrible security procedure. You cannot say that she should have been allowed through passless simply because others were. Failures in past do not excuse failures in present. I will look into it, but on the surface it just looks to me like someone else playing the race card in another attempt by the democratic party to cause more unwarranted disturbance. Many of the things I hear from the democratic party are based on heresay or conjecture - and once they are disproven or invalidated they are pushed out of the press by the next hype-driven blast at the republican party, but I digress too much. It doesn't look good on the surface is all I'm trying to say - especially since she hit an officer in her little temper tantrum.

In reference to the 9/11 Commission Report and the Clinton admin - that's not what I am speaking about. I'm referencing the actions of the Clinton administration that allowed terrorism and al qaeda to proliferate globally - all ignored knowingly for PR purposes. Also referencing the Gorelick Wall preventing intelligence sharing between our own agencies - imposed by Jamie Gorelick (who was on the commission as well as other Clinton officials) while she was second in command at the Justice Department - and how that influenced the processing of intelligence programs and operations such as Able Danger - the open source operation that identified key members of the group that carried out the 9/11 attack.

Oi, where to go from here.

As for your 3 points, your first two interest me, and the 3rd I disagree with. Saddam Hussein is in Jail in Iraq after having been handed over to the Iraqi government. The 48 hour warning was for the entire country, and it was also a last chance for Saddam. He was not going to be let go.

Ok, wow - I don't know what else to say atm so I'm gonna roll.
 
FretsAflame said:
I would like to look more closely at McKinney's alleged harassments, but as of now I don't see much more than conjecture. Frist, Lott, if they weren't wearing their passes (which I do in fact doubt) and they got through then that is terrible security procedure. You cannot say that she should have been allowed through passless simply because others were. Failures in past do not excuse failures in present. I will look into it, but on the surface it just looks to me like someone else playing the race card in another attempt by the democratic party to cause more unwarranted disturbance. Many of the things I hear from the democratic party are based on heresay or conjecture - and once they are disproven or invalidated they are pushed out of the press by the next hype-driven blast at the republican party, but I digress too much. It doesn't look good on the surface is all I'm trying to say - especially since she hit an officer in her little temper tantrum.

In reference to the 9/11 Commission Report and the Clinton admin - that's not what I am speaking about. I'm referencing the actions of the Clinton administration that allowed terrorism and al qaeda to proliferate globally - all ignored knowingly for PR purposes. Also referencing the Gorelick Wall preventing intelligence sharing between our own agencies - imposed by Jamie Gorelick (who was on the commission as well as other Clinton officials) while she was second in command at the Justice Department - and how that influenced the processing of intelligence programs and operations such as Able Danger - the open source operation that identified key members of the group that carried out the 9/11 attack.

Oi, where to go from here.

As for your 3 points, your first two interest me, and the 3rd I disagree with. Saddam Hussein is in Jail in Iraq after having been handed over to the Iraqi government. The 48 hour warning was for the entire country, and it was also a last chance for Saddam. He was not going to be let go.

Ok, wow - I don't know what else to say atm so I'm gonna roll.

I'm not making up the McKinney stuff, dude. Some people on the Hill enter the building with their entourage unchecked, some don't.... I'm not defending her, I'm just telling you why she's making a big deal out of this. You might want to do a little research on McKinney herself - you may be surprised to learn of her background and professional accomplishments. Maybe before just blatantly calling bullshit on her for using the "race card", we should consider why she's making such inflammatory allegations. Just a thought....

Let's try and leave the partisan cliches out of this. That stuff usually enters into a discussion/debate when logic starts to break down. Besides, I'm a Libertarian - I think both of the major parties need to be dethroned. And as a Republican, as far as I'm concerned, you don't have room to talk seeing as you guys UNSUCCESSFULLY impeached one of the most popular presidents ever for banging a chick of all things! You know, one thing that I never understood was WHY didn't the Republicans like Clinton? I mean, he was actually more of a true Republican than the vast majority of the so called conservatives up on the Hill right now. Seriously, who the hell could ever pass welfare reform legislation and have blacks behind you cheering all the way?! I know that Clinton had a chance (or maybe even chances) to get Bin Laden and chose not to do so. Who knows why? But, you gotta remember that he did take some military action and actually tried to KILL (the new album by Cannibal Corpse :goggly: ) Bin Laden in retaliation for the attacks on the U.S. Embassies in Africa.

You only disagree with my last point because it exposes our own contradiction and hypocritical actions while we are supposedly trying to democratize and "liberate" a third world country. A third world country that, I might add, has one of the largest oil reserves on the planet. The Iraqi "government" that you mention is simply a puppet regime with all of it's primary players put into place by us. None of that changes the fact that Saddam Hussein is in jail only because we want him there. Sounds like commie shit to me, boss. I still to this day think that it's laffable that we were ever trying to persecute this guy for possessing weapons that Ronald Reagan, George Bush, and Donald Rumsfeld gave to him in the first place!!!

Well, I'm trying to get all of this out now. Maybe we'll meet at the Nevermore show on Sunday - and I definitely won't be in a politics discussion mode....unless we're talking about the Politics of Ecstasy!!!