Israel.

[J.DavisNJ]

You really, really don't get it, do you? He's not making fun of Jews. At all. It's called satire.

What he said!

Joe

 

[RichS]

You really, really don't get it, do you? He's not making fun of Jews. At all. It's called satire.

It's called what all jews in Hollywood do. Make fun of white people and you tards laugh right along with them. You deserve to be ridiculed.

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9545597/Armada-of-British-naval-power-massing-in-the-Gulf-as-Israel-prepares-an-Iran-strike.html

It's getting pretty serious down there.

Can you guys clarify something for me? Please correct me if I'm wrong below, because my understanding of what is going on doesn't make any sense.

Israel doesn't want Iran to have nuclear weapons. Therefore, Israel wants to attack Iran. Most of the other countries around the world, including the UK and the USA, don't want Israel to attack Iran. Israel is going to attack Iran anyway. Therefore, the other countries around the world are going to support Israel in their attack.

Clearly I'm missing something here. Why are the USA/UK/Others supporting Israel if they don't agree with what Israel is doing? Someone please clarify, thanks.

 

[Skinny Viking]

I might be wrong but I thought these were pre scheduled war games

 

[JHA]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9545597/Armada-of-British-naval-power-massing-in-the-Gulf-as-Israel-prepares-an-Iran-strike.html

It's getting pretty serious down there.

Can you guys clarify something for me? Please correct me if I'm wrong below, because my understanding of what is going on doesn't make any sense.

Israel doesn't want Iran to have nuclear weapons. Therefore, Israel wants to attack Iran. Most of the other countries around the world, including the UK and the USA, don't want Israel to attack Iran. Israel is going to attack Iran anyway. Therefore, the other countries around the world are going to support Israel in their attack.

Clearly I'm missing something here. Why are the USA/UK/Others supporting Israel if they don't agree with what Israel is doing? Someone please clarify, thanks.

That's a good question. From that Telegraph article, this could explain it:

Western leaders are convinced that Iran will retaliate to any attack by attempting to mine or blockade the shipping lane through which passes around 18 million barrels of oil every day, approximately 35 per cent of the world’s oil traded by sea.

A blockade would have a catastrophic effect on the fragile economies of Britain, Europe the United States and Japan, all of which rely heavily on oil and gas supplies from the Gulf.

 

[drew_drummer]

It's called what all jews in Hollywood do. Make fun of white people and you tards laugh right along with them. You deserve to be ridiculed.

Shut the fuck up. You stupid asshole.

 

[Damian B]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9545597/Armada-of-British-naval-power-massing-in-the-Gulf-as-Israel-prepares-an-Iran-strike.html

It's getting pretty serious down there.

Can you guys clarify something for me? Please correct me if I'm wrong below, because my understanding of what is going on doesn't make any sense.

Israel doesn't want Iran to have nuclear weapons. Therefore, Israel wants to attack Iran. Most of the other countries around the world, including the UK and the USA, don't want Israel to attack Iran. Israel is going to attack Iran anyway. Therefore, the other countries around the world are going to support Israel in their attack.

Clearly I'm missing something here. Why are the USA/UK/Others supporting Israel if they don't agree with what Israel is doing? Someone please clarify, thanks.

There's no short answer to this question - I'll try my best to be brief and accurate.

Let's go back to the 40s. WWII was ramping up, the Americans hadn't joined in yet, and the British needed allies. In what proved to be a pretty bad decision, the British promised the control of the region that's now Israel to Arab leaders in the Palestinian region. These Arabs didn't really have an ideological position (meaning, they didn't hate jews, despite what you might think), they were simply trying to bargain with either side for the best outcome. The British gave the best deal, and the Palestinians provided troops, resources, etc for the war effort. A little later on the British essentially promised the same land to the Jews. There are a number of reasons for this: 1) the Allied powers felt the need to "right the wrongs" of WWII, 2) there were tons of displaced Jews and due to outright racism, many European countries were not willing to take in refugees. These Jews needed a place to go, 3) the Allies wanted influence in the region and access to resources, and 4) some were convinced by zionism (not the most important reason, by far).

So, from the get-go, this was a recipe for disaster. But, contrary to what the common narrative says, Jews and Arabs did not hate each other in this region prior to this conflict.

You can read up on how Palestinians were displaced, and how awful that event was. There's plenty of literature and documentation. Needless to say, it was bloody, traumatic for Arabs, and really outright unfair.

Israel now existed as a state. A concerted effort was made by the Allied powers and the growing Jewish lobby in America to increase immigration numbers in Israel. Again, part of it was guilt, part of it was Western racism (get the Jews out into their own place), and part of it was keeping a promise to the Jews (while breaking a promise to the Arabs).

A number of wars happen. Israel started some of them, some of them were started by Arab states. Israel displayed a pattern of retaliating with what can be described as excess force on a number of occasions.

In the 1967 (the 6 day war), Israel took Sinai, Gaza, the West Bank and the Golan Heights. They further displaced Arabs and began the settlement process (expanding settlements into formerly Arab territories). This was obviously unpopular with the other side, and one can argue that this event singlehandedly made resolution of this conflict impossible. The UN passed Resolution 242 which called for Israel to give the land back and come back to the negotiating table. Israel never complied.

In 1973 Egypt, Syria and a few others attacked Israel to try and get some land back. Egypt retook the Suez Canal and Syria got the Golan Heights. The United States, in a really stunning move, gave 800 million dollars (4 billion today, adjusted for inflation) to Israel. The US sent guns, bombs, tanks, missiles, and most of it didn't even arrive until after the war ended. As a result OPEC instituted the 1973 oil embargo.

Conflict continued and US support of Israel did too. In the 1980s the right wing majority in the US began a narrative focused on biblical zionism. Church leaders began an active campaign that convinced a whole lot of people that supporting Israel was absolutely necessary. Right wing elements in the Jewish population did the same. The Reagan and Bush administrations were 100% supportive of Israel.

The US realized that it was in a pickle, and began a strategy (and it is a strategy) known as the "peace process." It's failed over and over, but it remains the United State's official position and will remain as such for the indefinite future. The US is in a lose-lose situation, especially Democrats and those on the left. It's extremely unpopular to not support Israel in this country. Saying it outright is a sure-fire way to not get elected. On the other hand, continuing to support Israel during shenanigans like these we're in now is counterproductive to peace in the region. So we've constructed the Peace Process strategy. No matter what happens we recommend diplomacy and give some vague support for Israel. We say that everyone should just go back to the negotiating table and it'll all be okay.

The Arab side has been pretty clear: back out of the settlements (or at least halt settlement expansion - which is illegal under international law and has been condemned by the UN for decades) and we'll talk.

But Israel won't do it. The government is incredibly far over on the right, and one can argue that its leaders are just as radical as the fundamentalist elements on the other side. Many Israelis just want peace and don't support a war effort, but the administration has ignored them.

So, it's a difficult question to answer: why does the US support Israel, despite knowing that doing so will get us in a world of trouble? It's a combination of things.

1) Any president, congressman and administration that advocates withdrawal of support will face incredible backlash. I cannot overstate this enough.

2) We've supported Israel for decades. Their weapons are ours. We've trained their military. If the entire Arab world banded together against Israel we would have a lot of blood on our hands if we didn't help out. This sucks but it's true.

3) We've constructed a false narrative. This is not a religious conflict. It has nothing to do with Islam vs Judaism (and the Christians who align themselves with zionism) - it's a conflict born out of horrible policy on the British's part, and our misguided attempts to mediate conflict. But it's much easier to hate someone when you ignore history.

4) There are no good options. There are no clear solutions. There isn't much hope for a resolution without violent conflict. We are dealing with extremist governments on both sides, and a lot of innocent people are getting killed in the meantime.

There's so much more to cover, but I'm tired of typing and half of you won't even read this. This explanation didn't cover the many atrocities committed by both sides. Arab states have blood on their hands too, though if you compare death counts Israel surely wins. I don't support the extinction of Israel. I'm Jewish, and I understand the complexity of the situation. There are hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Israel who don't deserve to die. This conflict is nuanced and emotions run deep.

The only way it will be solved is if people are informed and understand the history.

Some of you will wonder about credentials. I have a degree in Political Science from a top 25 university and was one credit shy of a Middle Eastern studies minor. I studied the Arab-Israeli conflict with a Professor who has taught it for over 30 years. I don't mean to sound like a pretentious dick, but the amount of misinformation and ignorance on this issue is staggering. Mutant suggested much earlier in the thread that I was motivated by emotion and extremism, and that couldn't be further from the truth. I simply understand the Arab side.

PS - didn't proofread.

 

[J.DavisNJ]

There's no short answer to this question - I'll try my best to be brief and accurate.

Let's go back to the 40s. WWII was ramping up, the Americans hadn't joined in yet, and the British needed allies. In what proved to be a pretty bad decision, the British promised the control of the region that's now Israel to Arab leaders in the Palestinian region. These Arabs didn't really have an ideological position (meaning, they didn't hate jews, despite what you might think), they were simply trying to bargain with either side for the best outcome. The British gave the best deal, and the Palestinians provided troops, resources, etc for the war effort. A little later on the British essentially promised the same land to the Jews. There are a number of reasons for this: 1) the Allied powers felt the need to "right the wrongs" of WWII, 2) there were tons of displaced Jews and due to outright racism, many European countries were not willing to take in refugees. These Jews needed a place to go, 3) the Allies wanted influence in the region and access to resources, and 4) some were convinced by zionism (not the most important reason, by far).

So, from the get-go, this was a recipe for disaster. But, contrary to what the common narrative says, Jews and Arabs did not hate each other in this region prior to this conflict.

You can read up on how Palestinians were displaced, and how awful that event was. There's plenty of literature and documentation. Needless to say, it was bloody, traumatic for Arabs, and really outright unfair.

Israel now existed as a state. A concerted effort was made by the Allied powers and the growing Jewish lobby in America to increase immigration numbers in Israel. Again, part of it was guilt, part of it was Western racism (get the Jews out into their own place), and part of it was keeping a promise to the Jews (while breaking a promise to the Arabs).

A number of wars happen. Israel started some of them, some of them were started by Arab states. Israel displayed a pattern of retaliating with what can be described as excess force on a number of occasions.

In the 1967 (the 6 day war), Israel took Sinai, Gaza, the West Bank and the Golan Heights. They further displaced Arabs and began the settlement process (expanding settlements into formerly Arab territories). This was obviously unpopular with the other side, and one can argue that this event singlehandedly made resolution of this conflict impossible. The UN passed Resolution 242 which called for Israel to give the land back and come back to the negotiating table. Israel never complied.

In 1973 Egypt, Syria and a few others attacked Israel to try and get some land back. Egypt retook the Suez Canal and Syria got the Golan Heights. The United States, in a really stunning move, gave 800 million dollars (4 billion today, adjusted for inflation) to Israel. The US sent guns, bombs, tanks, missiles, and most of it didn't even arrive until after the war ended. As a result OPEC instituted the 1973 oil embargo.

Conflict continued and US support of Israel did too. In the 1980s the right wing majority in the US began a narrative focused on biblical zionism. Church leaders began an active campaign that convinced a whole lot of people that supporting Israel was absolutely necessary. Right wing elements in the Jewish population did the same. The Reagan and Bush administrations were 100% supportive of Israel.

The US realized that it was in a pickle, and began a strategy (and it is a strategy) known as the "peace process." It's failed over and over, but it remains the United State's official position and will remain as such for the indefinite future. The US is in a lose-lose situation, especially Democrats and those on the left. It's extremely unpopular to not support Israel in this country. Saying it outright is a sure-fire way to not get elected. On the other hand, continuing to support Israel during shenanigans like these we're in now is counterproductive to peace in the region. So we've constructed the Peace Process strategy. No matter what happens we recommend diplomacy and give some vague support for Israel. We say that everyone should just go back to the negotiating table and it'll all be okay.

The Arab side has been pretty clear: back out of the settlements (or at least halt settlement expansion - which is illegal under international law and has been condemned by the UN for decades) and we'll talk.

But Israel won't do it. The government is incredibly far over on the right, and one can argue that its leaders are just as radical as the fundamentalist elements on the other side. Many Israelis just want peace and don't support a war effort, but the administration has ignored them.

So, it's a difficult question to answer: why does the US support Israel, despite knowing that doing so will get us in a world of trouble? It's a combination of things.

1) Any president, congressman and administration that advocates withdrawal of support will face incredible backlash. I can overstate this enough.

2) We've supported Israel for decades. Their weapons are ours. We've trained their military. If the entire Arab world banded together against Israel we would have a lot of blood on our hands if we didn't help out. This sucks but it's true.

3) We've constructed a false narrative. This is not a religious conflict. It has nothing to do with Islam vs Judaism (and the Christians who align themselves with zionism) - it's a conflict born out of horrible policy on the British's part, and our misguided attempts to mediate conflict. But it's much easier to hate someone when ignore history.

4) There are no good options. There are no clear solutions. There isn't much hope for a resolution without violent conflict. We are dealing with extremist governments on both sides, and a lot of innocent people are getting killed in the meantime.

There's so much more to cover, but I'm tired of typing and half of you won't even read this. This explanation didn't cover the many atrocities committed by both sides. Arab states have blood on their hands too, though if you compare death counts Israel surely wins. I don't support the extinction of Israel. I'm Jewish, and I understand the complexity of the situation. There are hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Israel who don't deserve to die. This conflict is nuanced and emotions run deep.

The only way it will be solved is if people are informed and understand the history.

Some of you will wonder about credentials. I have degree in Political Science from a top 25 university and was one credit shy of a Middle Eastern studies minor. I studied the Arab-Israeli conflict with a Professor who has taught it for over 30 years. I don't mean to sound like a pretentious dick, but the amount of misinformation and ignorance on this issue is staggering. Mutant suggested much earlier in the thread that I was motivated by emotion and extremism, and that couldn't be further from the truth. I simply understand the Arab side.

PS - didn't proofread.

Nice. A clear headed account of this long, bloody mess. I studied History, but no real emphasis on the Middle East. I wish that was offered in my University. You and I could probably discuss this stuff for hours.

 

[MarcusGHedwig]

Really interesting stuff Damian, thanks for posting! (though I pretty much had to take your word for it on it all haha, but sounds like you've got a handle on it)

 

[J.DavisNJ]

Really interesting stuff Damian, thanks for posting! (though I pretty much had to take your word for it on it all haha, but sounds like you've got a handle on it)

He explained it way better than I could have, even though it was all in my head, lol. Writing skills got away from me since being a desk jockey.

 

[J.DavisNJ]

Yeah, I think it should also be mentioned that even right-wing Israelis are finding their support of Netanyahu dwindling. They have an incredibly strong military for being such a small country, but if they directly attack Iran then they will be hit on most sides. Hamas from southwest, Hezbollah from the north, Iran sending off ballistic missiles from the east. Basically it would be a shit show for all involved, including the U.S.

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

There's no short answer to this question - I'll try my best to be brief and accurate.

Let's go back to the 40s. WWII was ramping up, the Americans hadn't joined in yet, and the British needed allies. In what proved to be a pretty bad decision, the British promised the control of the region that's now Israel to Arab leaders in the Palestinian region. These Arabs didn't really have an ideological position (meaning, they didn't hate jews, despite what you might think), they were simply trying to bargain with either side for the best outcome. The British gave the best deal, and the Palestinians provided troops, resources, etc for the war effort. A little later on the British essentially promised the same land to the Jews. There are a number of reasons for this: 1) the Allied powers felt the need to "right the wrongs" of WWII, 2) there were tons of displaced Jews and due to outright racism, many European countries were not willing to take in refugees. These Jews needed a place to go, 3) the Allies wanted influence in the region and access to resources, and 4) some were convinced by zionism (not the most important reason, by far).

So, from the get-go, this was a recipe for disaster. But, contrary to what the common narrative says, Jews and Arabs did not hate each other in this region prior to this conflict.

You can read up on how Palestinians were displaced, and how awful that event was. There's plenty of literature and documentation. Needless to say, it was bloody, traumatic for Arabs, and really outright unfair.

Israel now existed as a state. A concerted effort was made by the Allied powers and the growing Jewish lobby in America to increase immigration numbers in Israel. Again, part of it was guilt, part of it was Western racism (get the Jews out into their own place), and part of it was keeping a promise to the Jews (while breaking a promise to the Arabs).

A number of wars happen. Israel started some of them, some of them were started by Arab states. Israel displayed a pattern of retaliating with what can be described as excess force on a number of occasions.

In the 1967 (the 6 day war), Israel took Sinai, Gaza, the West Bank and the Golan Heights. They further displaced Arabs and began the settlement process (expanding settlements into formerly Arab territories). This was obviously unpopular with the other side, and one can argue that this event singlehandedly made resolution of this conflict impossible. The UN passed Resolution 242 which called for Israel to give the land back and come back to the negotiating table. Israel never complied.

In 1973 Egypt, Syria and a few others attacked Israel to try and get some land back. Egypt retook the Suez Canal and Syria got the Golan Heights. The United States, in a really stunning move, gave 800 million dollars (4 billion today, adjusted for inflation) to Israel. The US sent guns, bombs, tanks, missiles, and most of it didn't even arrive until after the war ended. As a result OPEC instituted the 1973 oil embargo.

Conflict continued and US support of Israel did too. In the 1980s the right wing majority in the US began a narrative focused on biblical zionism. Church leaders began an active campaign that convinced a whole lot of people that supporting Israel was absolutely necessary. Right wing elements in the Jewish population did the same. The Reagan and Bush administrations were 100% supportive of Israel.

The US realized that it was in a pickle, and began a strategy (and it is a strategy) known as the "peace process." It's failed over and over, but it remains the United State's official position and will remain as such for the indefinite future. The US is in a lose-lose situation, especially Democrats and those on the left. It's extremely unpopular to not support Israel in this country. Saying it outright is a sure-fire way to not get elected. On the other hand, continuing to support Israel during shenanigans like these we're in now is counterproductive to peace in the region. So we've constructed the Peace Process strategy. No matter what happens we recommend diplomacy and give some vague support for Israel. We say that everyone should just go back to the negotiating table and it'll all be okay.

The Arab side has been pretty clear: back out of the settlements (or at least halt settlement expansion - which is illegal under international law and has been condemned by the UN for decades) and we'll talk.

But Israel won't do it. The government is incredibly far over on the right, and one can argue that its leaders are just as radical as the fundamentalist elements on the other side. Many Israelis just want peace and don't support a war effort, but the administration has ignored them.

So, it's a difficult question to answer: why does the US support Israel, despite knowing that doing so will get us in a world of trouble? It's a combination of things.

1) Any president, congressman and administration that advocates withdrawal of support will face incredible backlash. I cannot overstate this enough.

2) We've supported Israel for decades. Their weapons are ours. We've trained their military. If the entire Arab world banded together against Israel we would have a lot of blood on our hands if we didn't help out. This sucks but it's true.

3) We've constructed a false narrative. This is not a religious conflict. It has nothing to do with Islam vs Judaism (and the Christians who align themselves with zionism) - it's a conflict born out of horrible policy on the British's part, and our misguided attempts to mediate conflict. But it's much easier to hate someone when you ignore history.

4) There are no good options. There are no clear solutions. There isn't much hope for a resolution without violent conflict. We are dealing with extremist governments on both sides, and a lot of innocent people are getting killed in the meantime.

There's so much more to cover, but I'm tired of typing and half of you won't even read this. This explanation didn't cover the many atrocities committed by both sides. Arab states have blood on their hands too, though if you compare death counts Israel surely wins. I don't support the extinction of Israel. I'm Jewish, and I understand the complexity of the situation. There are hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Israel who don't deserve to die. This conflict is nuanced and emotions run deep.

The only way it will be solved is if people are informed and understand the history.

Some of you will wonder about credentials. I have a degree in Political Science from a top 25 university and was one credit shy of a Middle Eastern studies minor. I studied the Arab-Israeli conflict with a Professor who has taught it for over 30 years. I don't mean to sound like a pretentious dick, but the amount of misinformation and ignorance on this issue is staggering. Mutant suggested much earlier in the thread that I was motivated by emotion and extremism, and that couldn't be further from the truth. I simply understand the Arab side.

PS - didn't proofread.

Thanks, this is actually exactly the type of answer I was hoping for.

So, in your opinion, if you were in control of everyone, what would you do? What would be the best solution to the problem? Because this, what is about to happen, is like really, really bad. Like this is damn near the worst-case scenario. The only thing worse would be if the Arab world did in fact have nukes, or if Russia came out and backed Iran, or something like that.

 

[J.DavisNJ]

Thanks, this is actually exactly the type of answer I was hoping for.

So, in your opinion, if you were in control of everyone, what would you do? What would be the best solution to the problem? Because this, what is about to happen, is like really, really bad. Like this is damn near the worst-case scenario. The only thing worse would be if the Arab world did in fact have nukes, or if Russia came out and backed Iran, or something like that.

Not technically Arab, but Pakistan has nukes. This is a scary thought in itself given the crazy instability of the nation.

Russia will absolutely back Iran. Also, I am surprised Syria hasn't been mentioned more in this thread. Without Iran and Syria, Russia has practically no foothold in the middle east.

The problem with any of these countries, in my opinion, is Pan-Arabism adopted by Islamic extremists. Any of these revolutions start out relatively peacefully, eventually spiral out into full blown sectarian civil war, and the countries are eventually overrun by various extremist groups. This is already happening in Syria. Many foreign fighters are already in the country. They are not there to fight Assad, they are there for a piece of the pie.

Joe

 

[Damian B]

Thanks, this is actually exactly the type of answer I was hoping for.

So, in your opinion, if you were in control of everyone, what would you do? What would be the best solution to the problem? Because this, what is about to happen, is like really, really bad. Like this is damn near the worst-case scenario. The only thing worse would be if the Arab world did in fact have nukes, or if Russia came out and backed Iran, or something like that.

Iran is still years away from getting a bomb, and when they get one they will not use it. Using a nuke, in this day and age, is suicide. It doesn't matter who you are, everyone in the world will rally against you. It's important to remember that Iran will not get nukes without us knowing (at least for now). Remember last year when we shut down their nuclear program with a computer virus? The intelligence community says we still have control.

Iran is trying to get a nuke for the same reason Israel, Pakistan, and India have them: bargaining power. Having nuclear weapons gets you a seat at the world table. The western world has made it this way - you reap what you sow.

I think we must avoid war at all costs, so that means preventing Israel (who really does have an insane government) from doing anything stupid. The Obama administration has to do this without appearing to support the other side. Most people don't want war in this country, but most people support Israel too.

To make things even more difficult, it's an election year, so the Obama administration is really trying to keep this quiet until after November. The administration may seem outwardly silent, but rest assured fuck-tons of pressure is being put on Israel right now. The other day Netanyahu called the for Americans to vote for a president who 100% supported Israel (Romney, of course).

If I were in charge I would probably do what the Obama administration is doing, but can't talk about. Put pressure on Israel to calm down and shut the fuck up, watch Iran like a hawk, strengthen missile defense systems in Israel but avoid provocative, preemptive measures, and avoid letting Romney capitalize on this issue.

 

[J.DavisNJ]

Iran is still years away from getting a bomb, and when they get one they will not use it. Using a nuke, in this day and age, is suicide. It doesn't matter who you are, everyone in the world will rally against you. It's important to remember that Iran will not get nukes without us knowing (at least for now). Remember last year when we shut down their nuclear program with a computer virus? The intelligence community says we still have control.

Iran is trying to get a nuke for the same reason Israel, Pakistan, and India have them: bargaining power. Having nuclear weapons gets you a seat at the world table. The western world has made it this way - you reap what you sow.

I think we must avoid war at all costs, so that means preventing Israel (who really does have an insane government) from doing anything stupid. The Obama administration has to do this without appearing to support the other side. Most people don't want war in this country, but most people support Israel too.

To make things even more difficult, it's an election year, so the Obama administration is really trying to keep this quiet until after November. The administration may seem outwardly silent, but rest assured fuck-tons of pressure is being put on Israel right now. The other day Netanyahu called the for Americans to vote for a president who 100% supported Israel (Romney, of course).

If I were in charge I would probably do what the Obama administration is doing, but can't talk about. Put pressure on Israel to calm down and shut the fuck up, watch Iran like a hawk, strengthen missile defense systems in Israel but avoid provocative, preemptive measures, and avoid letting Romney capitalize on this issue.

Best part of the most recent virus would be the blaring AC/DC, .

Well put btw.