Israel's military actions justified?

[Horus]

A picture is worth a thousand words.

http://stopdestroyinglebanon.com/WarOnLebanon/nfblog/?page_id=3

The last time I checked, 53,000 words is quite a bit.

 

[A Dying Breed]

Actually, seems Iraq and Afghanistan are much worse places for women since America interefered than before hand. They are more oppressed by their men now because of our presence in their land.

This is culturally insensitive and I am offended. And you're dead wrong on Afghanistan. Women had basically no rights under the Taliban.

I think RookParliament has been spot on in his analysis of Israel's actions.

Yes but again, Hezbollah is not a State. And as such, the lines between civilian and Hezbollah become so murky, how can Israel be justified in its bombings?

A guerrilla could not ask for a more accommodating enemy than one who subscribes to this principle.

 

[speed]

This is culturally insensitive and I am offended. And you're dead wrong on Afghanistan. Women had basically no rights under the Taliban.

I think RookParliament has been spot on in his analysis of Israel's actions.



A guerrilla could not ask for a more accommodating enemy than one who subscribes to this principle.

Thus why guerrilas and partisans have been so effective in harrassing States throughout history.

And the Taliban now controls most of Southern Afghanistan, not to mention the rest of the country outside of Kabul is still essentially controlled by warlords. Point being, the reconstruction effort in Afghanistan has been a colossal failure.

 

[A Dying Breed]

Thus why guerrilas and partisans have been so effective in harrassing States throughout history.

And the Taliban now controls most of Southern Afghanistan, not to mention the rest of the country outside of Kabul is still essentially controlled by warlords. Point being, the reconstruction effort in Afghanistan has been a colossal failure.

Afghanistan was also a colossal shithole long before we showed up. You make it sound as if we controlled Southern Afghanistan at some point and lost it back, which isn't the case. Only recently has ISAF (NATO mission) even entered the region. Calling this one a failure is premature in my opinion.

As for the point about the guerrillas, I don't disagree.

 

[speed]

Afghanistan was also a colossal shithole long before we showed up. You make it sound as if we controlled Southern Afghanistan at some point and lost it back, which isn't the case. Only recently has ISAF (NATO mission) even entered the region. Calling this one a failure is premature in my opinion.

As for the point about the guerrillas, I don't disagree.

Well I dont disagree with our tactics of limited engagement and troops in Afghanistan; however, the reconstruction effort has been more than lacking from NATO and the U.S. And I read they've still only barely even entered the South.

I'm glad you agree on the guerrilas. Ive been making the same point for posts now. Essentially it boils down to a State has more resposibility than a terrorist guerrila group; and thus killing civilians and civilian infrastructure by a State demands serious and explanable reasons (those which I personally do not believe are present in Israel's explanations). But I suppose if you do, thats your opinion.

 

[EGOR]

I reckon their are a few closet terrorists in this forum..lol , yknow the type the guys who are training at Air-pilot school or playing with Chemistry sets..... giving themselves false names like "Dave" or "Junior" and pretending to be from the deep south.... HaHaaa. You can picture them now sat in their London basement flats, dressed to the eyeballs in "combat gear".... sticking pins in barbie dolls and packing nails and broken glass into the soles of their shoes.... lol. slagging of the Jews and the yanks in the sad hope that just one little convert to their way of thinking is a good few hours spent between prayers. We normal people however , who have absolutely no belief in god or fairys or little green men whatsoever....we can only but laugh at these poor mixed up Religious souls.... they are always "never seeing the wood for the trees". And yknow....Its simple really..... just get along with each other. Dont go anywhere near any organised religioens.... listen to what other people have to say regardless of wether you feel superior to them or not.... stop reading books...take up a hobby like watching clouds... ignore the media driven bollocks that is ratings driven... War means viewers. If you dont do any of this then just do what you do.... continue being pains in the asses.... Hell the worlds full of em its just most of them tend to believe in god and are either , Israelians or Palastinians at this moment.

Now, Im bored with all of this... Whats the saying?.... you can lead a Camel packed full of high explosive to water... but you cant make him shit in it.



www.Agankast.com

 

[Falconspirit]

Letter From Ralph Nader To Georges Bush:

Published on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 by CommonDreams.org


Please, President Bush: Don't Continue to Be Weak on Lebanon Crisis
by Ralph Nader

Dear President Bush:

You have been a weak president, despite your strutting and barking,
when it comes to doing the right things for the American people within the
Constitution and its rule of law. This trait is now in bold relief over
the Israeli government's escalating war crimes pulverizing the
defenseless people and country of Lebanon.

With systematic efficiency, the Israeli government has already
destroyed innocent homes and basic public facilities-- ports, airports, highways, bridges, power stations-- which are critical to delivery of food, medicines, health care, ambulances, water, and other essentials for a civilian population. This bombardment, by U.S. made bombers, military vehicles, ships, and missiles with American taxpayer subsidies, places an inescapable responsibility upon your shoulders which does not mix with your usual vacuous messianic rigidity.

As the leading player in official Washington's puppet show, it is time
for you to assert the interests of the American people and those of the
broad Israeli and Palestinian peace movements, by standing up to the
puppeteers. For without this conflict, Hezbollah would not be in
today's news.

The time has come for you to return to Texas for a private meeting with
your father, his former national security advisor, Brent Scowcroft, and
his former Secretary of State, James Baker. You need to say to them 'I
can't trust my advisors anymore; there have been so many tragic
blunders. What do you advise me to do about the destruction of a
friendly nation by the world's fifth most powerful military?'

Here is what I think they should say to you:

1. Take personal command of an immediate rescue effort for the tens of
thousands of Americans trapped in Lebanon by Israel's calculated
blocking of air, land and sea escape routes. You've said the safety of
Americans is your top priority. Prove it by using the U.S. Air Force
and
the U.S. Navy facilities to immediately evacuate all our people
desperate to escape the terrorization of Lebanon.

2. You have been so docile and permissive to Israeli demands that any
modest deviation from this posture will make your next move credible.
Announce that you are sending two prominent negotiators-perhaps James
Baker (Republican) and former Senate Majority Leader George Mitchell
(Democrat) to Israel and Lebanon to arrange for a cease fire between
the combatants.

Announced at a televised White House news conference with your two
envoys, you can punctuate your seriousness by raising the questions of
violations of the Arms Export Control Act and the Foreign Assistance
Act. Using U.S. supplied weapon systems to commit civilian atrocities
on homes and fleeing vehicles with children and to inflict collective
punishment on mass civilian populations are not using these weapons for
legitimate self-defense and internal policing, as our federal law
requires. Israeli planes have even fire-bombed wheat silos and gasoline
stations in Lebanon. More mayhem is on the way.

3. Stop acting like an impulsive, out-of-control West Texas Sheriff and
start reading, thinking and listening for a change. When Israel,
Britain and France violated international treaties against aggression in 1956,
and invaded the Suez Canal, President Dwight Eisenhower used his
influence to make them withdraw from Egypt.

In 1982, following a year without any PLO skirmishes over the
Lebanese-Israeli border, Israeli armed forces invaded Lebanon anyway.
They created a path of destruction all the way to Beirut and militarily
occupied south Lebanon for 18 years before they withdrew, except for
retaining Shebaa Farms. In 1982, the New York Times reported
"indiscriminate bombing" of Beirut by Israeli planes. At least 20,000
Lebanese civilians lost their lives in that invasion and many more were
injured. From that conflict Hezbollah was born, composed of many people
whose relatives were casualties in that illegal invasion.

History, George, does not start two weeks or two months ago. You must
read about past U.S. Presidents who, at least, sent high-level
emissaries to quell similar border fighting. It worked and prisoners
were often exchanged.

You are doing and saying nothing about what the rest of the world
believes is a hugely disproportionate attack against innocent adults
and
children in violation of the Geneva Conventions, the UN Charter and
other treaties and federal statutes. You've sworn to uphold these laws.
Do so. Because of the Israeli government's overwhelming military power,
the imbalance of terror against civilians and their property has always
been to its advantage. As has its occupation of Palestine and
confiscation of land and water sources.

4. You can't take sides and be an honest broker. Just about all our
knowledgeable retired military, diplomatic and intelligence officials
believe resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the key to
deflating other agitations in the region. Freedom and justice for the
Palestinian state and security and stability for the Israeli state must
both be achieved.

You have turned your back on the courageous and prominent Israeli peace
movement which normally reflects the positions of half of the Israeli
population. You've never met with any of its leaders - even those in
the
Knesset or former officials in the military, intelligence and Justice
Ministries. Hundreds of reserve combat officers and soldiers of the IDF
have refused, in their words, "to fight beyond the 1967 borders to
dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire population." They
pledged only to fight for Israel's legitimate defense.
(www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp)

5. Once in a while, ask your aides for a sample of Israeli opinion that
rejects the notion that there can be a military solution to this
conflict, despite the military imbalance. For example, reports and
editorials in Haaretz, arguably the most respected newspaper in Israel,
would educate your judgment. In a recent editorial, Haaretz argued that
the present Israeli government has "lost its reason" through the brutal
incarceration, devastation and deprivation of innocent people in Gaza.

In another Haaretz commentary dated July 16th, Gideon Levy writes:

In Gaza, a soldier is abducted from the army of a state that frequently
abducts civilians from their homes and locks them up for years without
a
trial - but only we're allowed to do that. And only we're allowed to
bomb civilian population centers.

6. One final bit of advice could come from Papa Bush's circle. If the
Israeli army decides to invade Lebanon with troops, your support of the
aggression can possibly unleash a domino of warring actions and
reactions over there. As is it, Americans are increasingly fed up with
the Iraq quagmire.

Moreover, we know they don't like many of your domestic policies
favoring the wealthy, the post-Katrina debacle, exporting jobs, and
among our conservative base, your enormous deficits. So our Republican
Party's control of government is at stake in November. Don't you have
your hands full with Iraq whose invasion we all urged you to avoid in
2003?

 

[Neith]

This is culturally insensitive and I am offended. And you're dead wrong on Afghanistan. Women had basically no rights under the Taliban.

I think RookParliament has been spot on in his analysis of Israel's actions.



A guerrilla could not ask for a more accommodating enemy than one who subscribes to this principle.

I couldn't care if you're offended or not and I fail to see how it is culturally insensitive. Iraqi women themselves say they have less freedom than before, and do not have as much independence (needless to say, neither do the men). An Iraqi woman who regularly posts on the internet (Al Jazeera If I remember correctly) often says things are much worse. As for Afghanistan, it may not have been as liberal with it's women as Iraq, but lets not forget that it was the West, specifically the Americans, who help to put both the Taliban and Saddam Hussein in power. We are forever meddling and causing problems, as we have with Israel. Perhaps if they had been left alone they would have sorted their problems out their own way. Whilst you could say that you would simply end up with a situation like that in Iraq at the moment, it is also possible to say that this perhaps would not have happened at all. Saddam Hussein was a Sunni, the minority religion who gained control of the Shiites and oppressed them. The civil war and hate between the two groups is largely due to the continued rule of the Sunnis over the Shiites (since 1921 when the West created the Iraqi state).

The more people are attacked and slaughtered, civilians especially, the more terrorism is going to be a constant part of everyday life for all. It's an act of desperation in many cases.

(Edited for typos, I shocked myself.)

 

[speed]

I couldn't care if you're offended or not and I fail to see how it is culturally insensitive. Iraqi women themselves say they have less freedom than before, and do not have as much independence (needless to say, neither do the men). A Iraqi woman who regularly posts on the internet (Al Jazeera If I remember correctly) often says things are much. As for Afghanistan, it may not have been as liberal with it's women as Iraq, but lets not forget that it was the West, specifically the Americans, who help to put both the Taliban and Saddam Hussein in power. We are forever meddling and causing problems, as we have with Israel. Perhaps if they had been left alone they would have sorted their problems out their own way. Whilst you could say that you would simply end up with a situation like that in Iraq at the moment, it is also possible to say that this perhaps would not have happened at all. Saddam Hussein was a Sunni, the minority religion who gained control of the Shiites and oppressed them. The civil war and hat between the two groups is largely due to the continued rule of the Sunnis over the Shiites (since 1921 when the West created the Iraqi state).

The more people are attacked and slaughtered, civilians especially, the more terrorism is going to be a constant part of everyday life for all. It's an act of desperation in many cases.

I totally agree with you. In fact, right now, Saddam Hussein's Iraq would be one of the best things for America in terms of foreign middle eastern policy. Hussein provided a counterweight to Iran, kept his Shiites in line, was secular, and used to play Washington's game.

 

[Cythraul]

The question is a foolish one: of course they have the 'right.' They possess the strength, the motivation and the will, and those powers who could intervene have no interest in doing so.

It's still the impotent flailing of a broken democracy, but they certainly have the 'right.'

That's absolutely ridiculous. Oh wait I forgot! Might makes right

 

[Falconspirit]

Dear all ,

Ok , I have to admit the attached pictures are hideously gruesome, but you have to look at them . Help me find out what kind of weapons cause this kind of dismemberment and mutation. What kind of weapons cause this kind of damage? Do you know? Could you find out?

None of this is confirmed, or could be here and now. However, there are growing doubts that Israel might be using internationally forbidden weapons in its current aggression against Lebanon. News from "Southern Medical Center", a hospital in Saida( in South Lebanon) are not good.

Dr. Bashir Sham, member of "French Association of Cardiovascular Surgeons", explains that the way the corps look when they reach the hospital , especially those of the air strikes in Doueir and Rmayleih, is very abnormal."One might think they were burnt , but their colour is dark , they're inflated, and they have a terrible smell" All this , and the hair is not burnt nor do the bodies bleed.

Eight of the victims of an air strike on Rmayleih bridge, near Saida, on the 15th of July, were transferred to Sham's hospital.

Sham says that only chemical poisonous substances "lead to instant death without bleeding". And what indicates the power of these substances, is the high and unusual of number of dead victimes, compared to the number of injuries.

Sham thinks that whatever "abnormal " substance causing these features might penetrate through the skin, or another explanation would be that the missiles contained toxic gas that stopped the proper functioning of the nervous system, and led to blood clotting.

These toxic materials cause immediate death, within two to thirty minutes, according to Sham, who admits that these doubts can't be proven, not even by an autopsy.

The director of the same medical center, Ali Mansour, says that due to the strong smell of the corps, he couldn't breath properly for at least 12 hours after the corps were handled.

He explains that the center received eight bodies from Rmeileh last Monday, and none of them was bleeding.

Mansour tells us the hospital wrote to both the commissioner of the European Union for Foreign Affaires Javier Solana, and the United Nations Secretary general Kofi Anan. He said that dr Sham will communicate his doubts to the Doctors Order in Lebanon.

CAN YOU HELP US , PLEASE!

http://www.lebanonunderattack.com/

 

[A Dying Breed]

I couldn't care if you're offended or not and I fail to see how it is culturally insensitive.

You condescendingly refer to Islamic cultural norms regarding women's role in society as oppression from your Western democratic pulpit. That's how it's insensitive. Come on, what kind of liberal are you?

As for Afghanistan, it may not have been as liberal with it's women as Iraq

wow understatement of the year. Have you ever read anything about Afghanistan?

but lets not forget that it was the West, specifically the Americans, who help to put both the Taliban and Saddam Hussein in power.

I figured I'd hear this shit about how we put the Taliban and Saddam in power. You probably know that the CIA trained/funded the Mujahedin fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan (this was a very ruthless and brutal invasion by the way) for the purpose of basically fucking them over. If we hadn't done that, how do you think things would have turned out? Maybe the Soviets would have won. Probably not. Following the Soviet withdrawl was a two to three year period of power struggle between warlords and eventually consolidation on the part of the Taliban (assisted primarily by the Pakistani military dictator of the time) which occurred after the US basically just quit the place. So, you can hardly say we put the Taliban in power.

And although we have in times past aided Saddam or seen him as an ally, we did not play any direct role in bringing him to power.

We are forever meddling and causing problems, as we have with Israel. Perhaps if they had been left alone they would have sorted their problems out their own way. Whilst you could say that you would simply end up with a situation like that in Iraq at the moment, it is also possible to say that this perhaps would not have happened at all.

This is just jibberish.

"IT WAS THE WEST!" is an extraordinarily unsophisticated and lazy reading of both the past and present political situation in the Middle East. But I guess when you desperately want to believe that all would be right in the world if the big meanies just let it alone, this is all you need.

 

[EGOR]

I reckon their are a few closet terrorists in this forum..lol , yknow the type the guys who are training at Air-pilot school or playing with Chemistry sets.....

I noticed none of them denied being College students studying the koran..lol

< is this a Muslum

then this > must be a Jew....

and this is the rest of us.... :Smokin:

www.Agankast.com

 

[speed]

You condescendingly refer to Islamic cultural norms regarding women's role in society as oppression from your Western democratic pulpit. That's how it's insensitive. Come on, what kind of liberal are you?



wow understatement of the year. Have you ever read anything about Afghanistan?



I figured I'd hear this shit about how we put the Taliban and Saddam in power. You probably know that the CIA trained/funded the Mujahedin fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan (this was a very ruthless and brutal invasion by the way) for the purpose of basically fucking them over. If we hadn't done that, how do you think things would have turned out? Maybe the Soviets would have won. Probably not. Following the Soviet withdrawl was a two to three year period of power struggle between warlords and eventually consolidation on the part of the Taliban (assisted primarily by the Pakistani military dictator of the time) which occurred after the US basically just quit the place. So, you can hardly say we put the Taliban in power.

And although we have in times past aided Saddam or seen him as an ally, we did not play any direct role in bringing him to power.



This is just jibberish.

"IT WAS THE WEST!" is an extraordinarily unsophisticated and lazy reading of both the past and present political situation in the Middle East. But I guess when you desperately want to believe that all would be right in the world if the big meanies just let it alone, this is all you need.

Actually I agree with your criticisms A Dying Breed, as far as I know they are based in fact. Yet, since you know most of these facts, I find it hard to belive you're not critical of the current U.S. administration's, and past administrations inept bumblings.

 

[Horus]

then this > must be a Jew....

Thanks EGOR.

 

[Norsemaiden]

U.S. Rushes Bombs to Israel


07/22/06 "New York Times" -- -- WASHINGTON, July 21 &#8212; The Bush administration is rushing a delivery of precision-guided bombs to Israel, which requested the expedited shipment last week after beginning its air campaign against Hezbollah targets in Lebanon, American officials said Friday.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14134.htm

 

[musicalorgasms]

In my humble opinion its not possible to "over react" in retaliation when the enemies end goal is the obliteration of Israel. You cant negotiate with that or make a deal. Its kill or be killed. GO get 'em Israel! However, I feel very badly for innocent people who get caught in the crossfires of war on every side. Israel is at war with hezbollah, not Lebanon. I think the fact that Hezbollah is using civilians as bullet shields is un acceptable and it SHOULD bring condemnation and action from the rest of the world and it hasnt. Its the division that terror groups are making good of for there cause and the world will never win the global war on terror if we dont come together in words AND action to destroy all terror threats world wide. In my humble opinion.

 

[kmik]

Maybe that's sort of off topic, but I really don't get why far rightists are so angry at Israel. OK, so you hate diaspora Jews for having no sense of their own culture and land, cosmopolitanism, materialism and passiveness - whatever - but you also hate militant nationalist Israelis for exploiting the humanitarian rights of the Palestinians...

 

[Blinded By Blood]

Maybe that's sort of off topic, but I really don't get why far rightists are so angry at Israel. OK, so you hate diaspora Jews for having no sense of their own culture and land, cosmopolitanism, materialism and passiveness - whatever - but you also hate militant nationalist Israelis for exploiting the humanitarian rights of the Palestinians...

Many view Judaism is something to be eradicated. It and Christianity represent alien religions which have no basis existing or exerting influence anywhere in the world

that and the fact that Israel has an effect on the entire world. Especially here in America, where our tax money is spent by the government on the Israeli war machine whether we like it or not

 

[Norsemaiden]

Maybe that's sort of off topic, but I really don't get why far rightists are so angry at Israel. OK, so you hate diaspora Jews for having no sense of their own culture and land, cosmopolitanism, materialism and passiveness - whatever - but you also hate militant nationalist Israelis for exploiting the humanitarian rights of the Palestinians...

Your assessment of possible reasons why so-called "far rightists" (people who are actually socialist and environmentalist) are angry at Israel is not quite accurate.

The diapora Jews are envied for having a very strong culture. At the same time they distort/suppress other people's cultures. They are envied for having their own land while we are not allowed a land of our own. We are forced by our governments to share our land with foreigners. The Jews are often to be heard insisting on the necessity of multiculturalism, provided it is not in Israel.

The Jews are not cosmopolitan, except in the sense that they exist within other cultures, they are highly exclusive, avoiding outmarriage, refusing converts, and dealing as far as possible with their own kind. But they promote cosmopolitanism amongst enemy peoples.

While it is true that their nature is to be materialistic, they cannot be described as passive. Rather, they are constantly aggitating and getting involved in everything - on account of their superior minds. It is a tenet of their religion that "if someone is going to kill you, kill them first", which frequently leads to gross over-reaction.

They are admired for being so clever and skilled as to achieve so much power and influence without incurring mass resistance. What is hated is what they do to other people.

Aesop's fable about the goose that laid a golden egg involves a man who had a goose that occasionally laid golden eggs. Instead of being grateful and satisfied with what he had, and taking care of the bird, he instead became so greedy that he thought he could get more gold by killing it. When he did this he found nothing.