Israel's military actions justified?

I'm on nightshift over here in Sydney, it's 03:00AM):

Update from the BBC Press Conference I just watched live:

Press conference with Bush and Blair just finished, a quick summary of what they said:

- they want to help Lebanon rebuild, and help Lebanon rid itself of Hezbollah armed militia

- Condi goes back to the Middle East tomorrow for further talks, to have UN rules imposed

- Bush and Blair state a "multinational" force will go to Lebanon to help the civilians

- Bush and Blair want to help the Lebanese get back on their feet and also at the same time do something long-term to help the Jewish world get its own state (this was the point, but not said in such words)

- Bush states that its all too easy to do something short term, but he wants to find a way to fix the root cause of the problem

- participant countries in multinational force not yet revealed

- further updates and plans to come from Bush & Blair later in the week

- deployment dates no yet announced

Update: more info from BBC here
 
"Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiers
From Yonit Farago in Jerusalem

WHILE Israel fights Hezbollah with tanks and aircraft, its supporters are campaigning on the internet.
Israel’s Government has thrown its weight behind efforts by supporters to counter what it believes to be negative bias and a tide of pro-Arab propaganda. The Foreign Ministry has ordered trainee diplomats to track websites and chatrooms so that networks of US and European groups with hundreds of thousands of Jewish activists can place supportive messages.

In the past week nearly 5,000 members of the World Union of Jewish Students (WUJS) have downloaded special “megaphone” software that alerts them to anti-Israeli chatrooms or internet polls to enable them to post contrary viewpoints. A student team in Jerusalem combs the web in a host of different languages to flag the sites so that those who have signed up can influence an opinion survey or the course of a debate."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,174-2289232,00.html
 
As some background to this invasion of Lebanon, we should all remember the massacre in Sabra and Shatilla. This is so pointlessly cruel and horrific that you will find it hard to absorb. It is the kind of information that requires one's whole perception of humanity to be revised, or else one's consciousness will simply not be able to deal with it.

Description Of The Scene Is Given By Loren Jenkins Of The Washington Post Service On September 23, 1982:
Ralph Schoenman and Mya Shone's testimony:

"When we entered Sabra and Shatilla on Saturday, September 18, 1982, the final day of the killing, we saw bodies everywhere. We photographed victims that had been mutilated with axes and knives. Only a few of the people we photographed had been machine-gunned. Others had their heads smashed, their eyes removed, their throats cut, skin was stripped from their bodies, limbs were severed, some people were eviscerated."

The Number Of Victims

The precise number of victims of the massacre may never be exactly determined. The International Committee of the Red Cross counted 2,400, then 2,750. The final count was estimated at 3,500.


http://judicial-inc.biz/Hoebieki.htm
 
Some say it is not the time to be sentimental, it is time to fight back the real terrorism in this world.

However, I cannot help the tears running down my cheek, and the sorrow breaking down my heart.

For in the name of which justice Israel had the right to love us so much?

For how can they ask their children to sign the gifts they are sending us to Lebanon?

For how can these human beings (if there is anything left out of humanity in them) can hurt the Lebanese so much, after being hurt so much?

The victim cannot turn to an oppressor. I refuse to believe that. I refuse to believe all Israelies are war criminals like their government. I refuse to believe that in the name of fighting terrorism we destroy the beautiful land where Jesus made his first miracle.

God, if you still have some faith in your creation, I call upon you… Reveal yourself, for peace is bleeding without your help. Human beings are becoming real savages, life is becoming much more then what we deserve to have.

You, the man above, look at the children of Lebanon…

FromIsraelToLebanon.com
Click to expand...

http://www.FromIsraelToLebanon.com
 
speed said:
Im ashamed my government supports these bloodthirsty Israelis with my tax dollars. Today was a very sad one--especially when I saw a smug israeli diplomat explain with a straight face and not an ounce of compassion, how and why they killed all those children. I hope you are safe falconspirit.
Click to expand...
I dont normally post here, I have read the rules and here we go....Lets say one of you (Israel) is my neighbor, and I (Lebanon)continually walk over to your house and take a dump on your porch. You may call the authoritys (UN) but they say there is nothing they can do about it.
The question: How many times would put up with someone coming to your house and crapping all over your porch and if no one was going to help you what would you do about it?
 
speed said:
Im ashamed my government supports these bloodthirsty Israelis with my tax dollars. Today was a very sad one--especially when I saw a smug israeli diplomat explain with a straight face and not an ounce of compassion, how and why they killed all those children.
Click to expand...

And the best part is:

This war never ends.

Israelis/Jews have a persecution complex.

Islam has a deep-seated (and rational) fear of Jews.

The West, by supporting one side and not the other, is hastening the inevitable third world war between the first world and the third world.

But, in the end, all of this is positive: the existing liberal democratic social order is near collapse, and I cannot wait for it to go!
 
Hawng said:
I dont normally post here, I have read the rules and here we go....Lets say one of you (Israel) is my neighbor, and I (Lebanon)continually walk over to your house and take a dump on your porch. You may call the authoritys (UN) but they say there is nothing they can do about it.
The question: How many times would put up with someone coming to your house and crapping all over your porch and if no one was going to help you what would you do about it?
Click to expand...

Yes, well hm...ok, so I suppose its ok to kill 34 innocent children in a strike even the Israel government and Fox news analysts, stated was a serious mistake and error that the Israelis could have prevented. Why, because you've been invaded; and lets not forget you occupied your neighbor for years under flimsy pretexts, constantly invaded and violated their land, and now are attacking civilians and children that have nothing to do with hezbollah.

So I guess, by your reasoning, once I violate your property, it gives you a green light to kill my children--hell any children or innocents in the surrounding area. This is disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. Such moral relativism is not only frigtening by nature, but it reveals the wretched blackened soul of those who would support such ideas.
 
infoterror said:
And the best part is:

This war never ends.

Israelis/Jews have a persecution complex.

Islam has a deep-seated (and rational) fear of Jews.

The West, by supporting one side and not the other, is hastening the inevitable third world war between the first world and the third world.

But, in the end, all of this is positive: the existing liberal democratic social order is near collapse, and I cannot wait for it to go!
Click to expand...

I agree. The Bush administration's foreign policy has not only been the most inept in American history, it will have serious ramifications for the future. Like Israel, we're now in a eternal war against Islam--especially against the Shi'tes. Almost the whole islamic world protested those barbaric attacks yesterday, and if anyone watched the footage, one would notice they were burning Israel's and the United States' flags, and shouting down with the USA and Bush.

Solution? Force an Israeli ceasfire. Then stop all aid to Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, let the civil war run its course in Iraq (leave), and negotiate with the Iranians. Of course none of this will happen.
 
I've read some posts here and there so I'm not fully up to date on who's said what.
In short: "Israel's military actions justified?"
- No

One huge reason is that the Hezbollah is a group (I won't use the word terrorist, will get back to that). Yes, their base is in lebanon, but that does not justify a full invasion of the country. So Israel's attack is overproportioned.

As to whether the kidnapping is an act of war I have to disagree to that too. Israel has been inprisoning people by the hundreds. Some are probably guilty, some aren't. If anything that is as much an act of war as what the hezbollah has done.
Also, as far as I've been informed, the Hezbollah even promised to not hurt the soldiers, they wanted a dialogue with Israel.

This conflict will do nothing except give lebanon yet another generation of war children who will grow up in ruins.
It also fuels the hate against israel and jews, especially among muslims, but in general as well.
It fuels hate against the US.
It will increase the sense of 'us against them' in the middle east.
Proves the UN is pretty much useless when it comes to this conflict because the US puts in veto against everything that's suggested against israel.

And it basically makes everyone look like the bad guys because no one is doing anything about anything.
The help Bush has offered with rebuilding lebanon is just bullshit, way to make money by rebuilding nations when no one is building in the US, just like with iraq. And it won't rebuild the lives of those affected.


Now the reason I don't call the hezbollah terrorists is because to them the US (and probably most of the western world) are the terrorists. It's just a matter of how you look at things. It's a stupid trend word Bush has made popular so he can simplify an enormously difficult situation into something as simple as "us against them" .. the good against the bad. Or as he has said himself "you're either with us, or against us".

The world is more complex than black or white after all -_-
 
Sacred Profane said:
I've read some posts here and there so I'm not fully up to date on who's said what.
In short: "Israel's military actions justified?"
- No

One huge reason is that the Hezbollah is a group (I won't use the word terrorist, will get back to that). Yes, their base is in lebanon, but that does not justify a full invasion of the country. So Israel's attack is overproportioned.

As to whether the kidnapping is an act of war I have to disagree to that too. Israel has been inprisoning people by the hundreds. Some are probably guilty, some aren't. If anything that is as much an act of war as what the hezbollah has done.
Also, as far as I've been informed, the Hezbollah even promised to not hurt the soldiers, they wanted a dialogue with Israel.

This conflict will do nothing except give lebanon yet another generation of war children who will grow up in ruins.
It also fuels the hate against israel and jews, especially among muslims, but in general as well.
It fuels hate against the US.
It will increase the sense of 'us against them' in the middle east.
Proves the UN is pretty much useless when it comes to this conflict because the US puts in veto against everything that's suggested against israel.

And it basically makes everyone look like the bad guys because no one is doing anything about anything.
The help Bush has offered with rebuilding lebanon is just bullshit, way to make money by rebuilding nations when no one is building in the US, just like with iraq. And it won't rebuild the lives of those affected.


Now the reason I don't call the hezbollah terrorists is because to them the US (and probably most of the western world) are the terrorists. It's just a matter of how you look at things. It's a stupid trend word Bush has made popular so he can simplify an enormously difficult situation into something as simple as "us against them" .. the good against the bad. Or as he has said himself "you're either with us, or against us".

The world is more complex than black or white after all -_-
Click to expand...

That is true. Hezbollah was a guerrila organization formed to drive the Israelis out during their previous occupation. In addition, Hezbollah provides social services, medicine, and other support for much of Southern Lebanon, as well as the only organized defense against Israeli aggression.

Like you said, its quite complex; who's the terrorist? Who's at fault?
 
speed said:
Im ashamed my government supports these bloodthirsty Israelis with my tax dollars. Today was a very sad one--especially when I saw a smug israeli diplomat explain with a straight face and not an ounce of compassion, how and why they killed all those children. I hope you are safe falconspirit.
Click to expand...

Thanks alot for your concern speed. I am okay, but it hurts like hell to see the children of my country die for no reason.
There are alot of us Lebanese who have never ever wanted war with Israel, we are sick of wars, and I'm sure they are too. And it hurts me to see their children suffer as much as it hurts to see the children of my country suffer. I really wish one day we could live in peace, I won't lose hope...hope dies last.
Hezbollah has many flaws, it makes alot of mistakes, some see it as a terrorist group, some do not. Regardless of that I believe Israel have failed in dealing with them, in fighting with them. I believe, and I already said this on another board, that the answer to violence (for those who consider Lebanon to have started the whole thing) is not violence. I believe two milleniums of History taught us many lessons, it showed us that violence always resulted in violence. I think that if Israel wants to eliminate Hezbollah militarily it will fail, even if it destroys every single building in Lebanon. It will fail. Why? Because violence will only spawn more violence.
There are other ways to deal with this matter, if you say our government is weak than give us the power and the support to be able to control Hezbollah, don't just stand there and Kill our children by using Hezbollah as an excuse. Alot of lives could have been spared if the Lebanese government had been given time and help to solve this deal. Yes we made mistakes but Killing us won't correct these mistakes...
Anyways, thanks for all the decent posts here. Right now, it is not the time to point the blame we have to find a way to stop the war as soon as possible only for humanitarian reasons, for respect of human life. No more, no less.
Cheers,
 
One of these days Israel will have to replace their WW2 mentality, and bring themselves up to date on the modern world. These overreactions cannot go on. Is it sad that I wish Sharon was still in control?

So did anyone read the link I posted? Good commentary that changes by the week.
 
I have a good idea

Since Israel wants all south Lebanese civilians to leave their homes, why not have all people in Israel leave the combat zone until it's safe? That'll protect them, yet for some reason it's never even hinted at

fucking double standards
 
Blinded By Blood said:
I have a good idea

Since Israel wants all south Lebanese civilians to leave their homes, why not have all people in Israel leave the combat zone until it's safe? That'll protect them, yet for some reason it's never even hinted at

fucking double standards
Click to expand...

Many of the border towns around the Israeli border with Lebanon have been evacuated to a large degree. If Hezbollah was capable of firing more powerful and accurate missile fire, you can bet there would be mandatory evacuation.
 
Some sources speculate that Israel is bombing some unpopulated areas of Israel itself, while claiming that they are Hezbollah missiles. This makes some sense given that the missiles are so very expensive that there would be no point in Hezbollah doing this and it being used as an excuse for further aggression against Lebanon.
 
Norsemaiden said:
Some sources speculate that Israel is bombing some unpopulated areas of Israel itself, while claiming that they are Hezbollah missiles. This makes some sense given that the missiles are so very expensive that there would be no point in Hezbollah doing this and it being used as an excuse for further aggression against Lebanon.
Click to expand...

Some sources speculate that the moon's made out of chocolate.
 
Blinded By Blood said:
I have a good idea

Since Israel wants all south Lebanese civilians to leave their homes, why not have all people in Israel leave the combat zone until it's safe? That'll protect them, yet for some reason it's never even hinted at

fucking double standards
Click to expand...

Haha! Perhaps they'll build settlements with big walls?
 
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