Itunes/MP3 Purchases vs. CD's

[Meridius]

So I've been in a debate with myself lately and was hoping you guys could shed some light on this. Since the band members actually post here hopefully they can shed some light on the situation.

What benefits a band more monitarily: the buying of cd's or downloading of mp3's via i-tunes (ie: paid services)? Part of me understand that it depends on how the contract is structured with a record company. However, more and more I find myself wanting to just buy stuff on i-tunes. In the end though, I'm for helping the artist. If i could deposit my $10 directly to the bands account for mp3's then i-tunes or a record store, I would.

Thoughts and comments appreciated,

Meridius

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

Paul is the expert on this stuff, so I'll let him explain it to you better!

My simple point of view though, is that we're pretty happy as long as you're actually purchasing our music and not stealing it! lol Whether you're buying mp3s, cds, t-shirts, posters, etc., it's all a big help to us. Even with the help from our record label, if people had any idea just how much we still pay out of our own pockets to keep this band going, they'd probably shit themselves haha!

I personally prefer to purchase actual cds because I like owning the disc and the booklet and whatever extras.....but it does seem to be that things like Itunes are really the way of the future, so we do support it. We may even someday offer some exclusive online content for sale, but nothing in the works yet.

 

[Meridius]

Thanks and I look forward to hearing what Paul has to say.

My main problem with buying cd's at this point is this: too many versions of the same disk. I don't believe Novembers Doom is responsible for this trend, but a lot of other labels recently are jumping on this band wagon of releasing an album, waiting a year, and then re-releasing the album with additional content, be it live recordings or bonus DVD.

Now, being the supporter of the band that I am, I'll gladly go out and by the cd the first week, as long as I know that I'm not getting a slap in the face by the band or record company a year later when the additional content is being released for the same price.

My example being that, Type O Negative (like them or hate them, doesn't matter, I'm a fan) came out with Dead Again last year. Recently they re-released the disk with extra content on it.

This bugs me from two stand points. First, I'm a consumer and a fan, what motivation is there for me to buy the cd now if you are just going to slap me in the face later for the extras. Second, don't preach against illegal downloading if you are part of the problem.

Do I believe it's right to illegally download something, for the most part no. If you are going to release an album with extra content anyways, whats the point of purchasing a cd the first time.

Atleast buying my digital copy for a little cheaper, if I do decide to buy a hard copy a year later, I might get the bonus stuff.

I don't know, the whole thing just annoys me to begin with.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

I can agree with you about it being aggravating sometimes when labels pull that "re-release" a year later with bonus material. Here's my thoughts on that one (and some will still disagree with me on this but oh well...)

If you're going to do a "special edition" version with bonus dvd, bonus tracks, special packaging, etc., then release that version at the same time as the "normal version". That way, a fan can make the choice then and there of either paying less for the basic version, or paying more because they like the bonus in the special version, or even buying both if they're that much of a completist. I know why the labels usually wait a year or so to do the special edition re-release......it's at that point when the album is getting a bit stale on the shelves and they need to reinvigorate album sales again somehow. But at the same point, certain labels have become so notorious for that, it's making fans either a.) say "fuck them" and just go download the shit for nothing, or b.) wait to buy the album a year later instead of buying the album when it's first released, which hurts the band as well.

Some people bitch about any form of "special editions" being released, but I disagree, I think it's fine to put out a second "special" edition for those fans who really care about that stuff. Just as long as the fans who don't care about it have the option to buy the basic cheaper version too, and as long as fans aren't duped into buying the basic version without realising a special one is coming soon afterwards.

We have (and still are doing, as you may have read elsewere) re-released our back catalog before, with new art and bonus songs and all that stuff. It's not a cash-grab scheme as some might think. Our reason for doing it is only when the albums wind up out of print and hard to find. The upcoming releases of our 1st and 2nd cds, "Amid Its Hallowed Mirth" and "Of Sculptured Ivy..." have been difficult (or costly) for many fans to locate in recent years, so we and our current label The End Records wanted to put them out with new art, bonus songs, remastered, and all at a very affordable price that almost anyone should be able to afford. Some fans will not want to bother with these because they're happy to just have the original versions and that's totally cool. But we get alot of requests to make those albums (as well as "The Knowing", our 3rd) available for sale again that we thought we should do it given the chance. And for those who have the originals but like to be completists and have every version, every variant, etc., they know at least they're getting some bonus stuff out of it for their buck as well.

Anyhow, I can't make 110% promises because sometimes things wind up out of our hands, but I'm pretty sure that Novembers Doom will never pull a sneaky stunt like getting people to buy something and then putting out a revamped version of it 12 months later.

p.s. I love Type O Negative, so we're in agreement on that one as well.

 

[Meridius]

And I totally agree with you on that. Give the fan the choice when the album comes out, not after the fact.

I guess the thing that really got me was when Josh Silver stated that downloading music hurts the industry, then has the audacity to re-release the same shit with new stuff. It's like, take a step back, do you realize you are shooting yourself in your own feet? I don't know, it really pissed me off and reevaluated how I purchase music. In the end, I want the band to get the most.

As far as re-releasing out of print stuff, I'm for that. If 5 years to a decade later something is still relevant or remastered, or just out of print, that makes complete sense. I believe At the Gates is rereleasing Slaughter of the Souls with a bonus documentary. I have a copy of it, but at this point, given how long I've listened to them, ok, I'll shell the money out because I'm kind of curious about it.

But other than that, why don't most musicians realize they are not helping the problem by allowing multiple versions to be released over a short span of time? It seems to me, if downloading of the music is the problem, somethimes the extra material is an incentive for people to still purchase the cd and have access to the stuff they wouldn't have been able to download.

Guess thats just me.

 

[Psychonaut]

I prefer to have the actual CDs complete with artwork, liner notes, and a spot on my shelf. I agree with the part about re-releasing an album a year later with all the bonus stuff and Dead Again is a perfect example. In fact, even though I like the new album, I haven't bought the new and improved version yet. I may in the future but I'm a little upset about it. I consider myself a collector of sorts and have lots of rare and limited edition stuff in my collection, so as mentioned before, if both Dead Again versions were offered at the release date, I would have bought the limited and not thought twice about it.

My other small problem is that I do have the original November's Doom stuff on CD and spent a fair amount of time tracking it down a few years ago. Now there's new content coming out so I have to decide whether or not to buy them. As a supporter and fan of the band, I definitely will, but it may take me a little longer to get around to it. Regardless of whether or not the new stuff is offered on iTunes, I will still purchase the CDs.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

A couple of things to keep in mind on this matter....

For one thing, the fans tend to put the blame squarely on the bands for these shenanigans, the whole re-releasing the cd 12 months later thing, etc. You have to understand that more often than not, it's a label decision to do that first and foremost. Like I said before, certain record labels (that I don't think I even need to bother naming, you know who they are lol) seem to do the same thing with almost every band on their roster....release a regular cd and then about a year later put out the special edition. That leads me to believe that this is something that is more the choice of the label and not the artists themselves. We are very fortunate that we have alot of say in what our label does and does not release, and our opinions on matters are taken into consideration. But that's definitely not the case with all record labels, so there's really no telling whether or not all of these bands are supporting this move 100%. They can't very well bash it publicly because their label would be furious, and it would just confuse the fans even more really. I don't know whether Type O made the conscious decision themselves, or whether it was more a contractual/label maneuver to release the special edition, so I can't really comment on that. But regardless, Josh is right, bands are hurting more than ever for support, not only because of downloading but just the massive amount of competition out there as well, plus the weak economy, etc etc. It all factors in.

As for our re-releases....I don't know what the plans are regarding them being available on Itunes or anything like that, that's not really my decision or something I've been clued in on just yet. For the people who already own the old discs and can't afford to rush right out and buy the remasters, I can certainly understand that. There's alot of product out there right now by alot of talented artists so you can't buy everything you want when you want it, I know that firsthand. But as long as you sooner or later actually buy the cd, or the songs you want from Itunes, Napster, etc., then you're helped us out and it's appreciated. All I can add to that is, at least The End Records is known for being very reasonable with their prices, and we try to keep our cd prices as low as possible on our website too, so at least it won't be setting anyone back in a major way

 

[Meridius]

I started this because I figured I could get some actual feedback. The Omega store is pretty much the only place I order cd's when I want them. but lately more and more I haven't wanted to collect more shit that gets moved from place to place. (Since I move roughly once a year).

If it is a contractual obligation with the label, then why would you agree to such terms to begin with? They are Type O Negative for fucks sake...lol

So, how does the End do as far as artist relations? Is it even worth it to try and get signed at this point with a band?

Thanks for the input again.

Psychonaut: I used to do a lot of collecting. I actually collect some vinyl, not because I can play, just because I like collecting some of the obscure stuff.

 

[Belligerent]

if people had any idea just how much we still pay out of our own pockets to keep this band going, they'd probably shit themselves haha!

I shouldn't be laughing at this.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

I started this because I figured I could get some actual feedback. The Omega store is pretty much the only place I order cd's when I want them. but lately more and more I haven't wanted to collect more shit that gets moved from place to place. (Since I move roughly once a year).

If it is a contractual obligation with the label, then why would you agree to such terms to begin with? They are Type O Negative for fucks sake...lol

So, how does the End do as far as artist relations? Is it even worth it to try and get signed at this point with a band?

Thanks for the input again.

Psychonaut: I used to do a lot of collecting. I actually collect some vinyl, not because I can play, just because I like collecting some of the obscure stuff.

As for the question regarding why someone would sign that kind of deal.....yknow it's just business, that's how it is, not just with the music biz but with almost any kind of business you have to take the good with the bad. I mean even a band like Type O aren't so "huge" and successful that they can just dictate the contract completely on their own terms. There's just so much crazy shit and legal shit and everything that goes on behind the scenes, I really think by and large people's heads would spin, collectively, if they knew. I am still surprised by alot of the shit that goes on with this business, and it's only getting harder due to slumping sales, greater competition, and so forth.

As for whether or not it's worth signing to a label.....it all depends on what your goals are. If you're content with paying for everything out of your own pockets, including recording costs, advertising costs, t-shirt and cd manufacturing costs, etc., and you're not really looking for mass distribution, then it's probably better to just stay independant and unsigned. Obviously the internet has opened up alot of doors for indie artists to get their music out there quicker, cheaper and easier than before. But it's still not the same as having a label with connections and a cash flow to really take your band to the next level.

We've got a very good rapport with our label, thankfully. I'm not saying that there's never disagreements because of course there is, that's just the way it goes sometimes. But overall they've been very supportive and easy to talk to about ideas and plans. I mean just this year they're releasing these remastered cds from our back catalog, as well as the upcoming DVD, and then hopefully sometime soon, maybe early 2009, we'll have a new cd out as well. So you can see that they're very supportive and keen on us getting ND product out there and everything, plus when you consider the costs of manufacturing and advertising (and let me tell you, ads are fucking expensive) they do put quite alot into this band. But still there are things that we fund from our own money as well, because we want things done a certain way or within a certain timeframe, and the truth is that trying to be an active, creative band in the scene today requires alot of time and money. I think when you can have a situation like ours, where you have a record deal with a cooperative label, but you also still do some things independantly and on your own dime, is probably the best way to go. Sure we'd all love to be able to be on some big label where every single thing is paid for, but the truth to that is, nothing is ever really "free", and the band will still be accountable for those expenses in the long run anyhow. Plus when you sign that kind of deal, you give up alot of control over your direction and everything. To me, it's not worth it. We're quite happy with where things are at right now.

Whenever you buy a cd or purchase the songs from an authorized place like Itunes, you're benefitting the band. Yes our label does account all of this to us and we do get our fair percentage of profits, once all of our debts to the label are accounted for. I won't get into specifics but The End Records gave us a really fair deal and it's alot better than what I've seen other labels offer. They give a shit about their artists and even in the metal underground that can be a rarity.

Oh and I can understand the whole thing about needing to cut back on collecting stuff. Even though I'm not moving around much, I myself find that I'm running out of space for all this shit! haha We certainly don't expect that everyone who says they're a fan of ND should have to buy every item we release. But we hope that they'll take into consideration that stealing our stuff is not a fair option. Even if you hate record labels and all that stuff, truly in the end it is the artists who are going to suffer because of it, no matter what anyone tells you.

Oh and as an aside, has anyone noticed that most of the artists today who talk about how giving away everything for free on the net are the ones who are already popular and wealthy enough to be able to afford it? Seriously, I mean y'know good for Radiohead that they can give away their album online, but it's easy for a band who already have millions of fans worldwide who'll pay big bucks to see them live and buy their t-shirts, etc. All I can say is, when we've been able to give away shit for free, we have. We released "Reflecting in Grey Dusk" as a free giveaway back in 2004, and believe me it cost us a pretty penny to get those made! We're happy to give shit away when we can actually afford to do so.

Anyhow, I'm off to go see Ace Frehley bumble it up at House Of Blues. This should be interesting

 

[Phoenix5]

This thread is kind of like a book.

 

[OPETH_DT]

I want a report on that Ace gig!

 

[Novembers Paul]

If you are looking to support the band, buying the music from any legit source is always the way to go. Obviously if you buy from our web site, the funds go directly to us, instantly. The next best way is to buy directly from our label mail order. It counts as a sale instantly, instead of waiting for stores who have been supplied from the distributer to account to them quarterly. iTunes and other online sales are also good. We do get a fair percentage of digital downloads from The End, so if you see Pale Haunt, or Novella, or even Fade on iTunes, by all means, we receive a royalty from that as well. More and more music will be going the route of download in the future. The numbers show that already each year. Last year alone, something like 30% on iTunes, were digital releases ONLY. No physical product.

These labels re-release CDs with bonus material a year later, to make up for lack of sales on the product in the first place due to illegal downloads. The labels wouldn't need to find alternate ways to make money off of the same product, if people would support it from day one. There are still those who do so, but those numbers have fallen off quite a bit.

Bottom line, if you like it, or want to support the band to continue to make music, then BUY IT. Any way that's a legit source will benefit the band.

 

[Meridius]

I agree, I want to support the band. But at the same time I don't want to feel like I'm getting screwed by the label. You guys did it perfectly, offer the bonus stuff up front. But to re-release it with bonus material a year later isn't helping the situation. That's just my take.

 

[beast from the east]

I love actually owning the album itself for the cover artwork, liners, etc, but I like the convenience and instant gratification of I-Tunes . There's something special about sitting at your computer, and two minutes later you have the album you want cued up and ready to play. How can you beat that? For this reason, I am SO GLAD to get confirmation from the guys that they receive fair compensation for these downloads. The LAST thing I want to do is harm the bands who's music means so much to me.

And as for bonus material being released a year later, I generally don't bother with that stuff, unless it has something truly special to offer.

 

[Jasonic]

Well, in all honesty, I think the older guys and gals will have a different perspective than the younger folks.

A lot of us older folks grew up in the demo trading days. You felt a lot closer to the band, joined their fan clubs by snail mail, etc, etc...

Now, someone can play Guitar Hero, dig a DragonForce tune, look up Power Metal on My Space, and in one hour recite back the 20 most popular power metal bands, along with downloading their albums, and seem like an expert.

It is easier and more convenient than ever with the internet to discover music. It is a double edged sword, for all the obvious reasons already discussed.

I think there are less and less "collectors" of music these days who feel the need to own the complete package. For me, I do not feel like I own the album if I have a download of it. The package is just as important as the music. It aids in the perception of the album as a whole.

People may not think so on first though, but even something as minor has color choice on an album cover can change someone's perspective of an album. (IE - a darker colored cover = a "darker" album, etc)

 

[Phoenix5]

Haha, I remember that I first bought To Welcome the Fade Based on the cover art....

and I didn't even know who ND were then.

 

[Novembers Paul]

Haha, I remember that I first bought To Welcome the Fade Based on the cover art....

and I didn't even know who ND were then.

The original cover of Fade, is easily the most personal cover to me. It is probably my favorite ND cover. Other covers may be more interesting to look at, but at the time, no one knew my personal issues, so the cover was just weird to them. To me, and my family, it was fucking powerful, and difficult to look at. When people learned the truth to it, it took on a whole new meaning to them as well. As far as capturing pure emotion, and reality, this to me is Travis Smith's masterpiece. I'm forever grateful for this piece from him.

 

[Belligerent]

^As you should. It's a brilliant cover.