Explain your reasoning here. I mean, fluctuations of the market in general, or fluctuations in certain sectors of the market?
John McCain's universal health care proposal
- Thread starter The Ozzman
- Start date
Explain your reasoning here. I mean, fluctuations of the market in general, or fluctuations in certain sectors of the market?
Einherjar86
Active Member
No, not quite. Consider this: Elimination of the insurance companies would create a more one-on-one style of health care. It would be directly between patients and their physicians. This would eliminate a great deal of unecessary paperwork and red tape fees. Furthermore, it would give doctors the liberty to choose their prices, which would not increase because they're competing with other doctors. Furthermore, there would be incentives for the doctors to put limits on their use of services because it's their money; not the government's. This would lessen the burden on taxpayers. This method would give more control to patients over their health care decisions and would create a greater sense of security. Patients would pay for their visit to the doctor's up front, which would cost less to begin with and would more often than not be very inexpensive routine check-ups or visits comcerning a flu or upset stomach. Now, because costs have drastically been reduced, more people will be able to afford health care. Furthermore, it will be easier for people to afford high-deductible catastrophic insurance in the rare case of an emergency.
You have a serious problem with stereotyping and believing that doctors and insurance companies and businesses are evil and need to be controlled. You don't think doctors today are like they were in the 1800s (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean)? Doctors want to help their patients. They want them to live. You're getting these awful and ridiculous stereotypes from media exposure and liberal films like John Q. "Doctors are just as greedy as the insurance companies..." You're really showing yourself to be very ignorant.
I'm glad you assume I make too much money. That's very intelligent of you. You should think before you write something like that. I've addressed this above (in my response to Cookie's post), so I'll not repeat myself.
I'd like to elaborate on something that I believe is causing so many negative stereotypes (especially among Unfaithfully Metalhead): media coverage.
Media coverage has had its own negative impact on the health care system. There is a documented case in California where a jury decided that a private insurer's initial denial of an unproven bone marrow transplant contributed to the patient's death. The resulting $89 million judgment helped make bone marrow transplant the standard of care for advanced breast cancer... and delayed discovery that such treatment was ineffective.
These kind of lightning-rod cases yield no positive results. They appeal to the emotions of the public and make insurance companies look bad. They don't provide all the facts because they're only look for a good story.
These stereotypes of insurance companies and business owners as evil and heartless need to stop, especially from Unfaithfully Metalhead. You're only promoting theories based on a few worst case scenarios that you've encountered in the media. You're being unfair and disrespectful to the majority of businesses. Have an open mind.
You forget one thing my friend, it's not only the services a doctor provides that determines the price. Medical supplies, overhead (the doctors secretaries, medical assistant etc.), malpractice insurance (which any sane doctor would have in a nation known for lawsuits) etc. adds to the price. Some or all of these factors adds to the price and they have no control over it for the honest doctors. For the dishonest ones they would mark up such things extremely if left to their devices. You don't think so? If you are able to go see how much a medical supplier charges for a bandaid or some other supply to a doctor and how much a doctor or hospital jacks up the price when the final medical bill comes. Then tell me if Doc's are not greedy or dishonest.
I don't stereotype, it's in the public eye whether in the media or some other area about doctors, insurance companies or big business in general. The media serves a purpose and that is to expose such things. If they didn't then these things do not see the light of day to the public in general. That you think such things is isolated incidents and not rampant is where the ignorance is. As for doctors in the 1800's, i was referring to the homely country doctor who pays you a visit at your home and barters with you for his services by taking payments over time or for services you provide for the doctor or giving him a cow for services etc. ala Little House in the Prairie. We do not live in such times and doctors are not like that at all. It's all about the bucks to them. Yes then they first are medical students and/or become doctors they want to help people and/or save lives but over time they become hardened like a Homicide cop and by then a patient is just another # on a chart and just another medical bill that they want paid today. Not tomorrow.
Again you are being ignorant if you think the reason healthcare is so high is not because of Insurance companies or doctors or businesses ala medical supply companies. One , two or all three contribute to the high healthcare costs along with fraud by all three as well as by lawyers in cahoots with the doctors/insurance companies/businesses. You say these cases do not provide positive results but they do because it makes the insurance company think twice with the next case and you also say they do not provide all the facts. We'll they provide the basic facts that can be verified independently by yourself. But unless that story comes out in the media or in your local area you would not know about it. Below are some interesting stories by the MEDIA that you can verify yourself independently if you wish not to believe what is written:
1. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,317809,00.html ( I read both sides of the story but how would you feel if it was your daughter and the company denied you the procedure?)
2. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003918093_health02m.html (Ole Bush Jr. at work fucking up our country even further but this time with children's lives. Oh btw I love how Bush says people would neglect to get "affordable" private insurance. For Big Business as usual and fuck people's lives)
3. http://www.boston.com/yourlife/heal...g_doctors_premiums_not_due_to_lawsuit_awards/ (Insurance companies not evil and have morals eh? Btw the study was by Dartmouth, care to say they do not provide all the facts and are looking for a good story themselves? )
4. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/104511.php (again, not Evil eh? Morals? LoL )
5. http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-insure9nov09,0,3065397,full.story (Wow, amazes me that you are right and there are just only a "few" worst case scenarios. Morals eh? Not Evil eh?)
6. http://www.courierpress.com/news/2007/Jun/5/doctor-sued-over-death-football-player/ (Hope this never happens to your son)
7. http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2008/04/umdnj.html (Doctors committing fraud which adds to the high cost of premiums? nahh )
8. http://www.brentadams.com/library/kansas-physician-and.cfm (prescription fraud that adds to higher prescription costs? Not to mention causing 4 people's deaths? Doctors not evil? nahhh Saving lives eh? )
9. http://www.sun-sentinel.com/features/health/sfl-rxtox15apr15,0,5548951.story (Injecting unapproved procedures and medications?
10. http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/337514/baltimore_jury_finds_cardiology_practice_guilty_of_fraud/ (goes on and on and on and on... a Few eh? )
We'll that is just 10 that I posted from just the first two pages of doing a search on Google. I could go on and on. The search produced 1,900,000 related topics on insurance companies and doctors. Btw I lost someone due to a doctor/hospitals negligence when they gave her a sedative that was too strong for her heart to take so perhaps I am bitter to people who think they are God with peoples' lives but those stories above and many many more (not a "few) proves otherwise. If you do not believe all that is written then go through court records and verify what is not fact to satisfy yourself.
Disrespectful to business? How about them being respectful to human life and not the all mighty Dollar??
cookiecutter
Proceed to Ultraslamming
I mean in general. There has to be a safety net in place to help those at the bottom during a depression.
This is a very naive view. Tell me, what would the incentive be for doctors to serve poor patients? You only need to look at attorneys for a parallel of what would happen. The best attorneys are used by the rich while if not for the government, poor people would rarely if ever receive legal counsel. Now imagine this if in a health context where things like that can mean life or death. Also, I don't understand how getting rid of insurance would help anyone if there was an emergency or a long term illness. Sure the likelihood of that is slim, but the costs are very high (due to many other factors than red tape as UM pointed out) and if there was no insurance this would doom poor people to either extreme debt or inadequate care.
I don't think that doctors or corporations are evil, but to think they are not motivated by money is ignorant. When Saskatchewan introduced the first universal health care system in North America, the doctors and nurses went on strike. Explain that one to me.
Also quit it with the liberal media thing. It's a myth. The media usually leans more towards the status quo than anything else.
Fluctuation in the markets happens dude. It's an inherent part of the markets. If you don't want random fluctuation, just invest in TIPS or a T-Bill or something
Maybe I'm just not following...?
EDIT: Your comment on only expensive lawyers being good just isn't true. There are plenty of public defenders that are probably better than expensive attorneys, but most of the time there's nothing they can do for their client because of lack of government funds or whatever.
Also, some doctors aren't motivated by money
Ender Rises
Wass sappening?
The problem with Einherjar's idea? Perscription drug costs.
@Ozz -- He's not saying he doesn't want "random" fluctuation. He's saying he wants a safety net for those who get fucked over the worst during a depression/recession.
@Ozz -- He's not saying he doesn't want "random" fluctuation. He's saying he wants a safety net for those who get fucked over the worst during a depression/recession.
skeptik
Member
- Feb 7, 2003
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I wasn't responding to or talking to you you fucking jackass. Maybe you should think before you respond to a post which specifically addresses nobody and assume that it's addressing you. I'm sorry, but this assumption really angered me. Perhaps because you meant to poke a hole in my basis of logic if you catch me making illogical assumptions.
Yes, because I'm sure none of us know dozens and dozens of people living paycheck to paycheck barely being able to afford their unaffordable insurance. No, of course, it's all about media propaganda.
Mort Divine
Shrine Maiden of the In-Crowd
No, because there's different degrees of 'getting fucked over' when we're talking about finance
Ender Rises
Wass sappening?
Struggle to buy food, gas, medicine, healthcare, and the other basics of life. "Get fucked over" was the wrong phrase, I should have said struggle. It hits the bottom a hell of a lot harder than the top.
Einherjar86
Active Member
You're missing the point. Doctors will have to charge for medical supplies, yes; but they'll charge as little as possible because they want the business. It's competition. Doctors can mark up the prices, but then they run the risk of another doctor beating their prices. You'd be surprised at how far people will drive for medical care, especially since most people don't visit the doctor's all that often.
What?
And doctors serve a purpose, and that is to treat sick people. You don't think that the media is in it for the bucks too? If you don't, then you're the naive one. The media latches onto the most heartbreaking, emotionally appealing stories because that's what sells, and in many cases they portray only one side of the story in order to increase emotional response. I like to believe that most journalists aren't like this, just as I believe that most doctors aren't. But if you're going to make the argument that most doctors will mark up prices and try and make as much money as possible, then you have to consider the same for journalists. They rarely ever tell the whole truth.
Doctors aren't much different than then, and they would be even more similar to those times if insurance companies were eliminated. Consider this: privatized health care/direct business with a physician is a much more personal affair. Many doctors would be willing to cut some slack to those who maybe couldn't afford their payment right away. Doctors get to know their patients. They want them to hang around, or else they'd have no business. Your claim that doctors only care about money is false. They care about their patients too, because that's where the money comes from (I realize that the reason doctors care for their patients might seem heartless; but I assure you, it's completely possible that a doctor can care for patients and money at the same time).
I actually said that I think insurance companies are responsible for driving up costs. Read my posts again. I want to do away with insurance companies. Those are the businesses that control health care. If we left this business in the hands of doctors and patients, costs would decrease drastically. You continue to ignore this fact.
Your media sources are very persuasive. Indeed, I hope one of my children is never in that situation. But if we got rid of insurance companies and created a system based on patient-doctor transactions, then costs would go down. You keep forgetting this. Earlier you said "If you think that insurance companies don't raise costs, you're ignorant." But I did say that I think insurance companies drive up prices. I'm trying to solve all the problems you're focusing on, but you're acting like I haven't focused on insurance companies at all.
I think we differ on our view of humanity. Personally, I think you're naive. If insurance companies were eliminated and costs decreased, more people would be able to afford health care. The amount of "poor" people who couldn't would decrease, and everyone would save money. Furthermore, it would be easier to assist those who still couldn't afford health care. It would not "doom" poor people to inadequate care. Doctors would be getting paid, so they will still treat poor people. I'm not advocating a complete abandonment of those who can't afford health care. I'm for methods of driving costs down that will alleviate the stress of helping the poor afford health care.
I don't think you ever made that generalization. Of course I know they're motivated by money, but they can be motivated by money and the desire to help people at the same time. And rightly so; doctors should have gone on strike if universal health care was introduced. Business is America is about making your own money, not what the government dictates you can have. You tell me how that isn't a violation of human rights. I know you guys are all high and mighty about human rights and providing for those who don't have everything the wealthy have; but at some point you're just restricting the rights of the wealthy (and middle class business owners) who (although Unfaithfully seems loathe to admit it) are human beings as well.
I purposefully never said "liberal media" because I didn't want to promote that stereotype. It's true, the media does lean towards status quo. And right now, it's the status quo that people are drawn to emotionally appealling stories. That's what sells papers and gains viewers. The media takes different political views depending on the issue; but they always take the view that's guaranteed to win them the most points with the public and gain them viewers/readers. With health care, people want to hear about how insurance companies are evil and manipulative so that they can feel that they've done their part by simply reading and taking a stance. It's true and cannot be denied that media coverage of the health care industry promotes negative stereotypes of physicians. As for insurance companies, they promote a negative stereotype as well; but I'm for eliminating insurance companies, so that's not really a concern of mine.
Okay, well that's just standard and cost of living and inflation and not 'investing'
Ender Rises
Wass sappening?
Einherjar86
Active Member
I'm sorry. I reread your post and understand what you meant. The way I initially understood it, I thought you were addressing me and it offended me; but I realize my mistake.
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