Kemper Profiling Amp

[drew_drummer]

The thing that's keeping me from going the modeling or kemper route is that like all digital stuff its just going to get better and better so you'll always want the next best thing. When you have an awesome amp that you get tones you want out of as long as you maintain it you wont need to buy a new one every two years.

They are already on the 3rd Axe FX. It scares me that I'll want to spend 2-3k every other year to get the newest stuff. I already have to do that with computers.

It is so convenient though and for my lifestyle right now would be the best solution but still selling my rig and going all digital doesnt feel right yet.

You guys do make it tough though since some of the clips ive heard are just phenomenal and the flexibility is amazing!

Yeah, some very good points. I think the nature of modelling always involves an element of comparison as well.. you're always internally thinking "does this sound like the real thing?" and it's quite to think of a modeller as its own thing, especially when companies use the real world amp names to market the products... Line 6 just added some SLO stuff to the HD series... and it piqued my interest. If they'd just called it "The ManLove Amp; dirty channel" or something, I probably wouldn't have been as interested.

I thought the AFX and Ultra came out at the same time, and now there's the AFXII/Ultra? (making it the 2nd)

Yeah think the std and ultra were out at the same time.

 

[K Odell]

I think my fantasy was to replace my valve amp setup with a small and compact setup, that could cover all my needs. But realistically, the Kemper was never going to do that given the effects limitations. It's just too young - maybe the next version will be better.

Just priced up the Axe FX rig that I'd want ... we're talking £3000 for the Axe, MFC, and Matrix power amp. That's just a ridiculous amount of money to be honest... I may just stay with valve amps and a pedalboard... need to give it some thought I guess.

I bought an Axe-FX standard, Mesa 2:90, and the behringer fcb-1010 all for like $1800 and I could not be happier.

 

[decoy205]

That's true. They have to base them on what people know or there wouldn't be any baseline.

Haha 'Manlove'

Honestly I think within the next 5 years even trained ears won't be able to tell the difference between modelers and the real thing. I can't tell sometimes now but some of you have better ears than me. To me there's good sounds and bad sounds. Sometimes even the fakes can sound good.

I think the next release of the Kemper is going to slay, especially if they make it a rack mount. I never like to buy the first release of any new technology. We'll see i guess.

 

[B36arin]

Yeah, that is a LOT of money.

I don't use that many effects, I usually run a TS in front of the amp and a delay pedal in the FX loop, and apart from that just a gate and a tuner. My problem is that I live in the middle of nowhere, and every time my band has gigs abroad we have to fly there. Last tour we took the ferry and brought our own van, but hopefully we don't have to do that again Taking my Triple Recto with me everywhere is not an option, it's too expensive and too much of a hassle. So I've been looking at a backup rig lately which is portable but sounds good. One option is to go Mini Recto, but they're not exactly cheap, and they're a bit limited. The Kemper/Axe costs a little bit more, but it'd allow me to profile my amps back home, combine it with a cheap and light power amp and bring it anywhere I want. It gives the FOH guy tonal consistency, and it gives me the opportunity to put my cab wherever I want for monitoring in most venues. The Electro Harmonix 44 pedal power amp looks perfect for on stage monitoring, and to me the Kemper seems to be the best choice for modeling at the moment.

Basically this leaves me with two options, Axe II and Kemper. I've tried the Axe II, tweaked around for an hour or so and wasn't really sold on it. I can also blindly identify it in the comparisons which I've heard, there's still something lacking. The Kemper seems to be closer to the real thing, and I can base it on the way I have set up my amps back home. That is a huge plus. It sounds more like the real amp, and it finally gives me the option of vintage Fender for cleans, Recto for rhythms and 5150/JVM for leads, always with new tubes and perfect mic placement.

I work out of a pretty big studio, and for most local metal bands it's quite expensive to come to the studio to only track guitars. The Kemper would give me the option of having the bands bring in their rigs to the studio for one day, geek around with different amps and tones, profile the shit then go home and track the rest. This is, of course, assuming that the Kemper does what it says it does. But in the clips(the good ones) I've heard the Kemper actually pulls it off. Andy used it on the new Testament album, which to me speaks volumes. And even if the Kemper is a bit lacking, you can track the album through the feel of the amp and then book another day for re-amping.

I really think that the Kemper will pay for itself with more projects and not having to rent backline everytime we fly out for a show. Kemper II will probably be released within a couple of years, with higher processing capabilities and the aliasing problem solved. But as it's looking right now, we'll probably have to spend a big part of what the Kemper costs to rent backline for the next couple of years, so I can't afford to wait. The way I see it the Kemper won't replace my tube amps, but it allows me to bring them with me on flights and have them at home in my apartment. That's what's got me sold on the idea for the time being.

 

[drew_drummer]

Yeah totally. There is a high probability that next year we'll be doing some Europe dates... and lugging a valve amp around doesn't sound all that fun!

I'm not really sure what to do at this point.... the Axe-FX II is too expensive realistically, and my needs are about 2% of what the Axe actually can do - seems like a complete waste of money to go down that road. The Kemper is a bit cheaper, easier to use, and would allow me to profile just the preamp sections of my Laney VH100R and my Orange Rockerverb, giving me a transparent 'no cab' tone which I could then put into a 1x12, 2x12, or 412.

You're dead right about the mini Recto - a bit too expensive for the limited options it gives you.

 

[MarcusGHedwig]

Yeah totally. There is a high probability that next year we'll be doing some Europe dates... and lugging a valve amp around doesn't sound all that fun!

I'm not really sure what to do at this point.... the Axe-FX II is too expensive realistically, and my needs are about 2% of what the Axe actually can do - seems like a complete waste of money to go down that road. The Kemper is a bit cheaper, easier to use, and would allow me to profile just the preamp sections of my Laney VH100R and my Orange Rockerverb, giving me a transparent 'no cab' tone which I could then put into a 1x12, 2x12, or 412.

So despite all that, the reason you don't want a Kemper is...the principle that mostly inaudible aliasing is unacceptable for that price?

 

[B36arin]

The Kemper has a "monitor output" which people have been using. It somehow calculates how the amp and the cab affect the signal separately and sends out a signal with the cab disengaged. From what I've read it's not 100% transparent, but close enough, and you can send the full profiled signal to FOH at the same time. It basically makes cab mic'ing unnecessary. The consistency that the Kemper would give would be a major plus.

I still have to check up on the monitor output. If it sucks it's a bit of a deal breaker for me, since not all places where we play(at all!) have a powerful enough PA to be able to rely on only the PA signal.

 

[drew_drummer]

So despite all that, the reason you don't want a Kemper is...the principle that mostly inaudible aliasing is unacceptable for that price?

Hmm, nah, that's not the only reason, but it's the latest one! hahaha. These are the pros and cons I came up with on the train this morning.

Pros:

Cheaper than the Axe
Easier to use in a live setting
Better direct control
Expansive world of amps
Expansion world of cabs
Easier to get reverb and delay trails when changing rigs
The sounds wont change with firmware updates

Cons:

Evidence of aliasing
Form factor isn't ideal, it being non-rack
Long start up time
I'd need to keep my existing pedalboard
No performance mode
Cab bypass not 100%

----

Now I don't dispute, there are some fucking KILLER sounds coming out of this thing. But the very idea of hearing warbly pitchy artifacts when playing lead lines... that just doesn't sit well with me. Maybe some people can't hear it, maybe it's only a select few. But going by those tests that Cliff @ Fractal did... it's a serious issue regardless of whether someone can hear it or not. I do hope they can fix the issue though.

----

Pros and cons of the Axe:

Pros:

Versatile
Rack form factor
More future proof due to higher tech specs
Better routing
Better paralell processing
Extensive external control (footswitches and expression pedals and the like)

Cons:

Price is higher - substantially
Patches could change with firmware updates
Trails are difficult to configure
Lots of parameters to tweak
In a live environment, going through menus to tune the amp to the room may prove a challenge
Pretty overkill for my needs

----

Tbh, this dualistic quandry I find myself in has been the only thing on my mind the past two weeks!

 

[B36arin]

To me it basically comes down to a two factors - in the clips I've heard, the Kemper sounds better. The second factor is that I'm looking for a substitute for my real amps, not a replacement. And the Kemper seems more suited to that than the Axe.

 

[MarcusGHedwig]

IMO though the biggest con you left off the Axe list is that I have yet to hear a recorded high-gain tone from it that sounded as much like a cranking tube amp through a big ol' 4x12 as many of the Kemper clips I've heard, so that right there is game over AFAIC - and what are some real-world practical advantages of the better routing and parallel processing of the AFX?

EDIT: Seems like B36arin and I are on the same page

 

[drew_drummer]

IMO though the biggest con you left off the Axe list is that I have yet to hear a recorded high-gain tone from it that sounded as much like a cranking tube amp through a big ol' 4x12 as many of the Kemper clips I've heard, so that right there is game over AFAIC

I think this is pretty subjective though. I've heard a ton of stuff I thought sounded really really good. I've heard excellent tones from both units, so I was trying to keep that out of my reasoning.

I'm looking at the devices from a live-performance-centric viewpoint. Not so much a recording viewpoint, as I genuinely love recording amps. And I'm not working at a studio or anything, so never have any time pressures like a lot of people here... so it's primarily about saving my back, making the live show setup easier, but still having great tones.

Maybe the aliasing issue would be less of an issue for me, since I'm playing in Drop-C and Drop-B ... and maybe it's less noticable through an actual guitar cab, since the speakers are going to be pretty band-limited.

As ever with these things... it's a suck it and see approach, which is annoying.

 

[drew_drummer]

what are some real-world practical advantages of the better routing and parallel processing of the AFX?

Well for instance, you could run two amp models side by side - one giving you high gain meat, and one giving you some crunchy girth. Can't really do that with the Kemper.

As for the routing, it depends what you want to do. But being able to say, take a signal, send it out the effects loop, and bring it back in, through some other effects... but have that as a paralell chain to the main signal chain... could give some very cool possibilities.

I guess if we're talking "real world" then there probably isn't anything ultimately superior about the Axe for the stuff I personally want to do. :hotjump:

 

[Clark Kent]

Tone is subjective. Our ears are different. What sounds analog/digital to some may sound the opposite for another.

When ever there's a new modeler out it automatically gets compared to Axe-Fx: 11R, POD HD and now the Kemper. Kind of like every new smart phone gets compared to iPhone and every microphone gets compared to an SM57 when mic'ing guitar cabs. I think Fractal has already reached a status of "the industry standard for modeling" since the previous one was Line6. I don't think any of these newer modelers have proven to be superior, while not saying they are inferior either. That would be a personal opinion we're all entitled to.

People don't even remember that the purpose of the Axe-Fx was supposed to be just effects (FX) for guitars (Axe). The reverbs alone are one of the best reverbs out there and the quality of all effects is extremely high through a pure uncolored signal which gives it better effects and routing than "real life pedals" could with ease. Axe-Fx sure raised the bar for amp modeling and sure gave a spark to other modeling ideas.

Kemper is still a new product and before anyone can say anything about which company has better amp modeling is jumping the gun a bit. (I was also jumping the gun) Give it a year at least and let the hype bubble settle. As products they are all too different for a comparison. You can compare amp modeling f.ex. but comparing patches would be unfair. Axe-Fx can have several noise gates for example and you can place them anywhere you want, and that's just one of at least a hundred different routings that you can't do with other modelers.

I'm biased towards Axe-Fx and I make it clear. I will not force you to agree with me.

 

[MarcusGHedwig]

Tone is subjective. Our ears are different. What sounds analog/digital to some may sound the opposite for another.

When ever there's a new modeler out it automatically gets compared to Axe-Fx: 11R, POD HD and now the Kemper. Kind of like every new smart phone gets compared to iPhone and every microphone gets compared to an SM57 when mic'ing guitar cabs. I think Fractal has already reached a status of "the industry standard for modeling" since the previous one was Line6. I don't think any of these newer modelers have proven to be superior, while not saying they are inferior either. That would be a personal opinion we're all entitled to.

People don't even remember that the purpose of the Axe-Fx was supposed to be just effects (FX) for guitars (Axe). The reverbs alone are one of the best reverbs out there and the quality of all effects is extremely high through a pure uncolored signal which gives it better effects and routing than "real life pedals" could with ease. Axe-Fx sure raised the bar for amp modeling and sure gave a spark to other modeling ideas.

Kemper is still a new product and before anyone can say anything about which company has better amp modeling is jumping the gun a bit. (I was also jumping the gun) Give it a year at least and let the hype bubble settle. As products they are all too different for a comparison. You can compare amp modeling f.ex. but comparing patches would be unfair. Axe-Fx can have several noise gates for example and you can place them anywhere you want, and that's just one of at least a hundred different routings that you can't do with other modelers.

I'm biased towards Axe-Fx and I make it clear. I will not force you to agree with me.

I don't think they're too different for comparison at all, when the comparison is strictly of recorded (or live) distorted guitar tone...not FX quality/routing possibilities, which are almost completely irrelevant to me and probably most on here

 

[drew_drummer]

Yeah I agree. I wouldn't say the intention for the Axe FX was originally just for FX. It's has amp models since day 1 AFAIK.

 

[Clark Kent]

About four to five years ago I started experimenting with some reverb algorithms. I wrote a program where you could input the dimensions and materials of a room and the program would simulate the reverb of that room. It worked quite well so I started expanding my efforts to other effects. Originally I had envisioned making the ultimate effects processor. Then Analog Devices came out with this new DSP chip and gave me an evaluation kit. I started writing effects routines for it and it quickly became apparent that this new chip was really revolutionary.
Intrigued by this ability to put the power of a desktop PC in a small box I turned my attention to amp modeling.

If all effects are allowed in this comparison the Axe-Fx will have a huge upper hand. Hell, you can make it sound like a bagpipe or a violin if you want to. How's the violin on the Kemper? Just meant that you can't compare something that can't be found in another unit.

 

[MarcusGHedwig]

Again, me and (I strongly suspect) the majority of people on here could not care less about that if the tones (especially distorted rhythm) are inferior

 

[JeffTD]

Can you hear any of this Aliasing in Jeff's clips? I sure cant. Maybe I don't have the ears for it? Either way those clips sound fine to me and thats all that really matters.

I can't hear aliasing recorded or when jamming; it's a non-issue for me.

Cons:

1. Evidence of aliasing
2. Form factor isn't ideal, it being non-rack
3. Long start up time
4. I'd need to keep my existing pedalboard
5. No performance mode
6. Cab bypass not 100%

1. Inaudible in my experience.
2. Fair enough.
3. Mine takes 40 seconds to boot completely; how long does a good tube amp take to warm up?
4. Why? The onboard FX are more than fine.
5. Not an issue; you can still change patches in browser mode. There is no missing functionality from not having the performance mode.
6. This is true but it's not a con - the cab isn't bypassed 100% in that the poweramp characteristics from the amp are retained. In my opinion the fact that it doesn't bypass the cabinet 100% is actually a benefit to the sound.

Axe-Fx can have several noise gates for example and you can place them anywhere you want, and that's just one of at least a hundred different routings that you can't do with other modelers.

You can do this with the Kemper, too. I've not found a routing situation I wanted to assemble and was unable to.

Well for instance, you could run two amp models side by side - one giving you high gain meat, and one giving you some crunchy girth. Can't really do that with the Kemper.

Just profile 2 amps running at once if you really want to do that. People forget that the Kemper isn't a modeller so much as it is a time machine for recorded tones. It's instant recall for entire guitar rigs with a few extra bells and whistles.

 

[MarcusGHedwig]

Have you tried yours through a poweramp and cab Jeff?

 

[drew_drummer]

I can't hear aliasing recorded or when jamming; it's a non-issue for me.

Maybe there is more to it then, like a certain range of settings or something. For the record, this is the clip I found on the Axe FX forum that Cliff provided...

Axe first, then Kemper:
http://www.fractalaudio.com/tmp/aliasing.mp3

Obviously we need to weigh up the fact that this is the guy who designed the Axe FX, and he's been known to slag off the Kemper publicly before too, so... ymmv.

Part of the problem is, most of the people on the Kemper forum aren't techy enough to test this properly, which is why I raised it here. Was hoping a Kemper owner like yourself could do some tests - in the interests of getting Kemper to fix it.

Here is another one done by a non-Fractal employee:
http://soundcloud.com/dhodgson/kpaaliasingtest

1. Inaudible in my experience.

Audible on sine tones, remains to be seen whether we can get it to happen on guitar tones. Here is the one recording I could find:
http://soundcloud.com/user9023849/wet-queen-no-stomps-no-fx

I'll be honest... I can't really hear it on the first three notes. I can hear some low-level oscillations from the 4th note onwards.

2. Fair enough.

Aye. Not much that can be done about it right now. It's not my main beef though.

3. Mine takes 40 seconds to boot completely; how long does a good tube amp take to warm up?

I swear the one in the shop took like 2 minutes. Maybe it was running old firmware.. in fact pretty sure it was, it was 1.0.8.

4. Why? The onboard FX are more than fine.

For our stuff, I use reverb and delays quite heavily in a pre-amp distortion context. The Kemper doesn't allow this. So I'd still need my existing pedals.

5. Not an issue; you can still change patches in browser mode. There is no missing functionality from not having the performance mode.

True enough. I'm still not 100% sure how the Kemper works in a live profile/rig triggering sense. Maybe I spoke out of turn.

6. This is true but it's not a con - the cab isn't bypassed 100% in that the poweramp characteristics from the amp are retained. In my opinion the fact that it doesn't bypass the cabinet 100% is actually a benefit to the sound.

Remains to be seen for me... I guess I need to try the Kemper through a solid setup to evaluate this.

Just profile 2 amps running at once if you really want to do that. People forget that the Kemper isn't a modeller so much as it is a time machine for recorded tones. It's instant recall for entire guitar rigs with a few extra bells and whistles.

I wasn't aware that this would be possible.