Keyboards - How do you get them to fit?

[guitarguru777]

I am struggling with a mix right now due to heavy use of Church organ and Hammond organ. They just step all over the vox and guitars. If I go for the EQ to try and fit them they just get all weak and thin.

What I have done so far is transpose the "right hand" parts up an octave and the "left" hand parts down an octave in hopes this would separate them out a bit and it worked somewhat.

The main problem is that the guitar player wants a super saturated tone, that's thick enough to cut through, but by doing so I lose all the room for the keys.

Any tricks? Thoughts?

 

[ahjteam]

especially hammonds usually kill all the mixes because they are such broadband, unless they are really down in the mix.

 

[guitarguru777]

Ya the Hammond just kills this fucking thing in a horrible way. I can get it to sound good by thinning out the guitar tone and letting the bass and low end on the hammond carry the tune but the guitar player cries like a 2 year old ....lol

 

[ParsonsMatt]

What is the more important instrument? Keys or guitars? Make the more important instrument the "thicker/fatter" one, and make the other one thinner. You may have to automate this for different parts of the songs.

 

[wishtheend]

Panning is also going to be key. I find the at least organ sounds better more mono versus synth which tends to be pretty wide. I would try keeping the guitars and keys at least out of each others panning position. And also try side channing a multiband compressor on the low end of the organ so that it only dips the lows if it pushes too hard. And a lopass won't hurt, even though organs can be very bright - the key will be the hearty midrange and they dont' sound at all bad with the high end rolled off some.

And lastly, another key thing with organ (at least B3) is that a lot of tone comes from the cabinet. Are you miking actual speakers or is this direct?

 

[Skinny Viking]

What is the more important instrument? Keys or guitars? Make the more important instrument the "thicker/fatter" one, and make the other one thinner. You may have to automate this for different parts of the songs.

+1

Jay I have this going on in one of my songs I'm mixing ... had to drop the rhythm gats down 1.5 dbs (4 tracks so its noticeable) and automate my EQ on the guitar bus to increase its hi-pass for that spot with the church organ. If you can wait a couple hours I can tell you exactly what EQ settings I used to get it to blend with the guitars... not that you have the same setup but it might give you some insight on how to approach it

Is it supposed to take center stage or is it just for blending and creating atmosphere?

 

[guitarguru777]

Its throughout all the songs, its a friend of mines band that hes putting otgether for Halloween, its like Tim Butron / Danny Elfman meets Metal kinda thing. So theres lots of "circusy" sounding keys and the hammond is like a droning thing in all the tunes.

I am just finding it really hard to make the mix punchy and keep everything from clouding up. There really is no "more important" they want to all to blend to make a "sound". Just tough to explain I guess. There is also a lead guitar playing random meloy lines through the verses / choruses. Just a lot going on all over the place.


This is a rough demo mix I sent them that they decided to post
http://www.reverbnation.com/goddamnzombie

Song is called Flesh Party, I didn't mix the other one.

The playing isnt very tight I know, but its what I have to work with.

 

[Skinny Viking]

hahaha

blackwood, nj

1/2 hour from me

 

[guitarguru777]

Yup Yup, they are good friends of mine

Its like a parody thing, think Zappa meets Elfman meets Zombie Flicks meets Metal

 

[drew_drummer]

Is the organ playing sustained chords? If so... sidechain compression (using guitar as key) might solve it.

 

[SimonTaddio_Qc]

^
That's what I was thinking while reading the thread.
I often work for a blues-rock band that has a keyboard player, so I've recorded and mixed them live and in the studio a couple times.
If the organ is playing in a very percussive way, I try to duck a compressor with a HP filter set rather high. So it compresses (rather hard I'd say, sometimes maybe a 7-8:1 ratio, you're big guy enough to know what works for you) when there's percussive attacks on the high notes. That's what you want to cut through.

You could also automate a lot with levels and whatever plug-in you need.
It IS possible to have a good mix with both guitars and organ, but it does require more work.

 

[vespiz]

What drawbar settings you use is also important. Full-on works in the context of, say, Deep Purple, because there's only one guitar so the B3 has to fill in the rest.
If you pull out all the stops, backing off on the lowest to drawbars (16' and 5 1/3') helps to "lighten" the sound.
I've been liking a setting of 888005400 or 778002320 or thereabouts.. with overdrive of course!
And try it with and without the chorus, the chorus sounds so good, but it does tend to .. blur.

 

[guitarguru777]

The Church Organ and B3 are both Un-tweakble VST's

 

[guitarguru777]

Is the organ playing sustained chords? If so... sidechain compression (using guitar as key) might solve it.

Ill give that a shot!

 

[ahjteam]

the reverbnation player didn't work for me, but have you tried like super drastic measures and which usually leads ugly looking eq curves like like highpass at 150hz, narrowish cut at 400hz and really wide -10dB at 3khz (automate this up if you do key solos) and then adjust the tonality with high and low shelves at like 300hz and 6khz? That way it won't interfere with the vocals and guitar, but it will fill the low end and the high end

 

[guitarguru777]

Yup, and those frequencies are like 98% accurate ....lol

Just got all nasally sounding and thin, really sucked

 

[ahjteam]

Yup, and those frequencies are like 98% accurate ....lol

Just got all nasally sounding and thin, really sucked

not nessecary, if you boost the low end like 12dB it shouldn't be too thin. If it starts to get muddy, just lower it to 150-250hz

 

[Skinny Viking]

Yo buddy

Here is what I was using on my church organ sounds

Channel A & B
1. Compression = Tube style, threshold at like -12, auto attack, release 550 ms // you'll have to play with the makeup gain but what worked for me was around 3.5 db

Channel B only (higher notes)
2. big EQ dip at around 9khz // Q=6.9 -12.5 dbs ...there was something really harsh in that upper end, don't know if its inherent in the sample or the nature of the instrument

Bussed Channel A & B (Stereo Aux)

1. Another EQ = hi pass @ 200hz -18db slope, low pass @ 12khz -24db slope
2. Multiband Comp = just some "Keyboards" preset that I tweaked a lot so can't really help with this part except to say "try a multi-band comp here"
3. Verb = REALLY wide verb ... I have mine set at around 50% wet/dry with a Cathedral Hall type setting. I also EQ'd a lot of high & low out of the verb after

I know this probably won't be of much help since its 2 totally different scenarios but maybe it gives you an idea of some stuff to try. Remember that for my song the church organ is meant to enhance the guitar part and create an atmosphere rather than be upfront so none of this may be of any use to you but at least no one can say I didn't try to help

By the way, any future keyboard questions I EVER have will be directed at Jussi

 

[ahjteam]

1. Compression = Tube style, threshold at like -12

the threshold value doesn't really matter but how much is gain reduction as the threshold depends on the material context

 

[Mesa4x12er]

Why not try letting the guitar be more dominant on one side and the organ more dominant on the other? You'll get a wider image and it'll most likely reduce some clutter. Something Like Guitars up a bit and full on Left with a thinned out organ and then more upfront filled out organ on the right with lower thinner guitars. It would still be cohesive but with a better spread. It may sound like shit but offhand that's the first thing I would try.