Kick drum "tightness"

[Aaron Smith]

I feel as though one of the biggest things that still eludes me, is getting the kick drum to sound as tight as I want it to be...I tend to get my kick drum sounding a little bit too boomy, but then when I adjust the low end I seem to not have enough. I can't find that perfect, tight, "in your face" middle ground. One of the many things that continues to amaze me about Andy's work is how perfectly balanced his kick drum always is...the clickiness is never overwhelming or too unnatural (but the kick can still be heard clearly in a mix), and the low end sits so tight in a way that makes the kick drum sound right up front, but also not boomy at all. I'm basically questioning a couple things about my own methodology, and hopefully some of you can enlighten me a bit with some answers or with some pertinent information of your own:

I normally create a modest boost around 80hz for the necessary "thud" that we all talk about, but I generally don't roll off the low end until closer to 45hz. Is this contributing to too boomy of a sound? Should I be rolling off earlier, even perhaps immediately below the 80hz bump? Should the bump around 80hz be a pretty wide Q or should it be more focused?

Compression. I don't think I've ever seriously thought about it or used it on a kick drum. Is that a "well duh!" kind of statement? If a compressor is vital to that perfect kick drum sound, should it be more of a C4 focused frequency range type of approach, or just equally compress all frequencies?

Thoughts?

 

[Ola Englund]

This is a great question and I would also like some tips on the subject in matter.

A tip with the compressor, I usually dial it in like a snare with a longer attack time and a shorter release time. Makes the kick "pop" out more in the mix.

 

[smy1]

Hi Aaron,

I think there is no correct answer to your question because it always depends on the overall style, mix and arrangement of the song.

If (for example) you have a lot of bass guitar hits/notes on the kick, the kick might not need a lot of low end because it's coming from the bass guitar. Also the style of the song plays a big role. You won't have as much low end on a kick that goes fast all the time, or you won't have as much click on an Entombed-style rock'n'roll-ish song.

Hope this makes sense (although it probably won't help you much ...)?!

 

[~BURNY~]

Don't be too systematical. Ask yourself the right questions for each mix and each kick sound.
Here's some examples:

Do you really need to boost the low end? Same for the high
end?
If you need both, maybe a simple cut in the low-mid area will reveal more clarity and punch.
About the Q, take it with a grain of salt but I find this to be recurring:
Boost: Wide Q seems more natural but I tend to use narrower Q in the low end because of the energy involved (maybe a key to tightness).

Cut: Narrower Q seems less "destructive" but a too narrow Q will generate more resonnant shit. You need to find the right balance.

Now about the high pass: Do whatever is needed but keep in mind that a high pass filter generate an excursion. It can lead to more boominess indeed.


A low pass is uselful to remove noise and shits like that but also to manage the "distance" in the mix. A kick with too much high frequencies content will sound too detached, up front and unatural. You have to think about it in relation to the other elements. Think about the focus of a picture.
A high shelve will often sound softer than a low pass and is more flexible. Try to find what is more suitable. Can be a combination of both.


In the end:
What did you gain? What did you loose?

About the compression, ask yourself what you are trying to fix.
Do you want to reduce the genral dynamic range? Shave the peaks? Shape the sound? Is it a sample set or a real kick drum?

If you want to reduce the dynamic range, maybe try to ride the fader first.
Then ask yourelf if you still need to fix it.
Then use an appropriate ratio, and an attack that doesn't destroy the transients yet still catches most of the sound and be really careful with threshold. You need to find an "axis" between the peaks and the lowest hits.
If you set it too high, it will be unefficient, but if you set it too low, you defeat the whole purpose.

If you just need to shave the peaks (think about riding the fader first) , use a higher ratio and a shorter attack and set the threshold carefully. The comp should be activated only for the most annoying peaks. If it works constantly, you're most likely destroying the punch and the clarity and raising the noise floor.

If you need to shape the sound (you know... Reinforce the percussive quality for example)), use a gentle ratio a longer attack and a lower threshold.
If you use a sample, you can manage the dynamic range easilly without a compressor, so think about it. Do you really need it or not? Most of the samplers on the market allow you to set the velocity independently from the volume.
In fact, when using 100% sampled kicks, I don't see any good reason why you should use a compressor other than shaping its enveloppe or adding a flavour. The rest can be done pretty much exclusively with fader and eq automation. But maybe that's just me.

Think about automating eq. With fast double Kick section, you will often find it boomier because of the hits overlapping each other thus summing part of their lower frequency content.

If you work in an untreated acoustic environnement, keep in mind that the walls and various objects in the room are sending you wrong informations like standing waves and resonnances. If you tend to correct the same low and low-mid frequencies on all your sources, there's a problem.

A multiband compressor? Why not? Once again, what are you trying to fix? I can help to tighten things while keeping the definition intact but will add phase shift at the crossover points.

Also ask yourself If your kick sound is the right one for the mix you're working on? Sometimes a sound simply doesn't work and you have to consider replacing it. If you end up with many boosts and cuts at -10/+10 or more and 4 layers of dynamic treatments, something may be wrong with the initial sound or performance (unless you are 100% happy with the result of course).

What I'm trying to say is that you need to ask yourself what you are trying to do anytime you use a treatment. It's a complex matter. Don't rely on fixed values, you'll learn so much more.

 

[~BURNY~]

oh and sorry for the poor english.

 

[CJWall]

oh and sorry for the poor english.

english reads very well, friend, no worries. Some great tips witin your post as well..

I tend to like the kick prominent around 85hz, and the bass gtr to be around 65hz or so. So, I'll boost 85hz on the kick, and cut some 65hz with a very narrow Q. I'll do the exact opposite for the bass and then see how my low-end is working...

goddamn guitar is on the right track with the kick comp. as well, but.. as always, it really depends on the source and what you're working with...

Charlie

 

[broken81]

i love it had to get out the ole notebook and write some of this down heheheheh

 

[cobhc]

Kinda OT, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.........

One thing I've noticed with Andy's kick's recently is that they are not always clearly audible in the slower parts, but then when some quick double kick stuff comes in, they really pop out (I noticed this on Exodus' Tempo Of The Damned album). I've noticed I have the opposite problem, I get them coming out nicely on the slower parts, but they then take over when it get's quicker, I realise Automation could sort this out, but I wonder if maybe mixing them a little lower, so they kinda become part of the low end in slower parts is a better idea.

 

[Atheist]

i just lower the compression threshold till it sound good

 

[chrisonpaper]

Hey man, one quick fix I've always used to reduce the "boominess" in a kick and give it a "tighter" sound is to just throw a blanket inside the kick slightly resting on the front head. It really cuts down on the resonant tones. But don't pack it too much, it'll kill the entire sound of the kick, just one blanket usually does fine. oh! and also, the tuning of your kick. Is it tuned high? The tighter the beater head, the more resonant tones will be produced. If you're going for a real clicky sound, barely tighten the head at all. All you need is a little even tension on all the lugs and your good. I'll usually try and find a good middle ground between the "click" and "tone" by making sure the head isn't too loose, or too tight.
Hope this helps!

 

[LSD-Studio]

most of us boost a little around 80 hz or so....
before doing that try cutting the octave of that frequency, it will have a similar effect (kick sounds more powerfull and deeper) without the boomyness.

 

[moose209]

most of us boost a little around 80 hz or so....
before doing that try cutting the octave of that frequency, it will have a similar effect (kick sounds more powerfull and deeper) without the boomyness.

Definately.
Plus it gives a nice pocket for the bass fundamentals to sit in. I would say a nice warm kick sits in the 80hz region and a sharper more plastic kick that translates well on smaller speakers and at quiet volumes sits arouns 100hz.

Pull out anywhere between 300 and 500hz to remove the boxy edge and flatten the sound a bit.

For me the attack of a kick nearly always comes from finding the balance of the thump and very small top end regions around 4 and 7k. I like the idea mentioned above about automating eq for faster sections so the bottom end doesnt build up.

I'm trying to avoid the use of antything but light compression on kick drums unless I want to radically change the envelope of the sound. Just enough with a transparent attack and slightly lagging release to suck the tail of the sound away and then push it back up on just before the backbeat or just after the main rhythm if left to release (old skool I know but I am really staring to miss the size of old records - that being said the stage that ebgineers that andy set is amazing and If I could learn the skills to create the spaces that Andy and people like colin create I'd be a happy man.)

 

[moose209]

One thing I've noticed - and if you look at Thomaas Haark settings on the sonor of metal dfhs demo track is that in the box mixing requires far more drastic setting than analog or real world mixing - for lack of a better term. Something that seems rediculous out the box works in the box. Like pulling out 500hz with a wide bell at -20db! sounds sweet in tools - sounds shit on an ssl.

 

[cobhc]

Man, a bit OT here, but I forgot how fucking kick ass your band are moose, listening now hehe \m/

 

[Ermz]

I tend to like the kick prominent around 85hz, and the bass gtr to be around 65hz or so. So, I'll boost 85hz on the kick, and cut some 65hz with a very narrow Q. I'll do the exact opposite for the bass and then see how my low-end is working...

That's crazy. That could be where my low-end is going wrong.

I was always under the impression that you wanted the bass to sit above the low-end of the kick. I read some comments on www.ilovemetal.co.uk saying to keep the bass around 160Hz. I'd never really considered having the bass go below the kick on metal tracks (hip-hop, trip hop and all.. different story).

 

[cobhc]

Yeah, I always thought it was the opposite way around as well.

 

[Seizure.]

Kick around 60 and bass around 160/180 works best for me.. i bet you could change it around but thats up to the sound the band wants i bet.

 

[CJWall]

<shrug> that's just the way I kind of get to where I wanna be in the low registers. seems to fillsup some space...

i've always visualized the bass sitting lower than the kick in my head.

hmm, now i've got to experiment a bit and see what focusing on the 160hz mark does for me.. wooo.

BUT, for me, sitting the kick at 60hz just doesn't sound tight enough.. i much prefer the 80-ish region.

Charlie

 

[Ermz]

I mean, I'm glad you mentioned the whole thing regardless. This opens up a new window for me.

I've *always* struggled with the low-end in my mixes and it could just be because I'm not giving the bass guitar the body it deserves. I've relied on the kick to provide the thump in the tracks, but half the time the speed metal kicks are so transient that you don't notice. Maybe pulling the bass down lower is the way to go.

Will be experimenting in the near future...
Thanks!

 

[Suicide_As_Alibi]

Makes sense to me - on a bass in standard tuning, you get fundamentals off the low E down at like 41Hz, and most the people on here tune lower than that. I find that if you make the bass nice and low, you don't get such a difference between the E and A strings, so you can get away with less compression too. It feels more powerful to my ears as well, but then I tend to put my bass way up in the mix compared to most of the stuff I hear on here.

Steve