Let's talk wrasslin'

[DE4life]

I agree on him being an Austin/Rock style tweener, but I actually think he should lean slightly more heel. Kind of similar to Randy Orton. Even when Orton's a face and fans love him, you always have a sneaking suspicion he's up to no good. You never feel like he can be fully trusted. That's the kind of niche I think Roman should move into, with Orton likely not having that much longer left as a regular on the main roster. Basically tone down his heel mannerisms without completely losing what made people love him as the Tribal Chief. Don't go back to sufferin' succatash, climb the beanstalk, belee dat, i'm not a bad guy or a good guy i'm just dee guy Roman. Pretend all of that shit never happened.

Trips lack of care for the tag team division on the main roster is indeed weird. Especially when you consider tag teams were a cornerstone of his black and gold NXT. Some of the most over acts in NXT during those days were tag teams - DIY and American Alpha immediately come to mind, although there were plenty of others too. Not sure why he's letting the tag division wither on the main roster when he had plenty of success with it in NXT.

 

[DE4life]

Just got around to finishing watching AEW All In. Took a couple of evenings due to the 4 hour runtime.

Have to say that overall I enjoyed it. I criticise AEW's general direction and storytelling, but one thing they are good at is PPV events. I typically have fun watching them, at least.

General setup of the PPV was great, it looked and felt like a huge event. The crowd were into everything and created an awesome atmosphere, as they always do in London. We're starved for top wrestling in the UK, so when it comes around - WWE or AEW - people are going to turn out in force and have a good time.

I thought the trios ladder match was a good way to start the show. Plenty of energy and exciting spots.

Storm and Mariah May was a decent enough match. A simple but effective story being told, no issues with this one.

Jericho looks really out of shape. His match against Hook was okay, and at least he lost, but his time really has passed. I'm not sure he's a net positive for AEW at this point, but he is a loyal soldier for Tony Khan, so I can understand keeping him sweet. There are better wrestlers who could be in his spot though. The crowd loved Big Bill, not sure why.

Bucks / FTR / Acclaimed was fine, but it's kind of sad that I've dipped out of AEW for a long time by this point and it's still the same old teams competing for the tag team titles. Acclaimed still doing their schtick (although Caster's line about FTR standing in the ring looking like EDL members made me laugh), the Bucks doing their schtick, FTR doing their schtick. Literally like nothing has changed in like, a year or more. The match itself was entertaining enough, though.

The Casino Gauntlet is always a decent spectacle. Nigel McGuinness coming out of retirement to compete got an insane pop. Not sure if he's coming back to wrestle properly or if this is just a one off. Would be cool to see him have another run if he's capable. Ricochet made his debut in this match, and surely got the biggest pop he's had in years. Instantly looked like more of a star here than he has since his early days in WWE. By all accounts Christian has had an amazing run in AEW, but it seemed like a waste to have him win this match. I'm not sure he should be in a position to have a world title feud, especially considering some of the younger talent available to the company. Still, it is what it is. Christian's a reliable hand at least.

Not much to say about MJF and Ospreay other than that it was a fine match. Garcia's interference presumably means he's re-signed with AEW.

Mercedes Mone Vs Britt Baker was the big disappointment of the night. I'm not sure if Britt intentionally fucked with the match or if she's just lost a step since her mini-stroke, but she couldn't really keep up with Mercedes. Mercedes' new finisher sucks. She needs to change that.

Perry and Darby had an okay garbage brawl. It's funny how even with a beard Perry looks childlike. Cool to see Sting making an appearance, and always nice to hear Seek and Destroy. Between that and Danielson coming out to The Final Countdown, AEW was paying some big bucks in music licensing fees.

AEW has done a great job making Swerve into a star and bonafide main eventer. He and Danielson had an excellent match, very well laid out and executed. It's nice that Danielson will be a part of the lineage of the AEW world championship. It would have been a massive missed opportunity if they'd allowed him to retire without ever being their champion. Danielson has announced that once he drops the title, his days as a full-time wrestler are over, so that'll add some good drama to all over his title defences without the need for additional overhead.

So yeah, overall a solid enough show. Didn't encourage me to start watching Dynamite again, but as a PPV it was a worthwhile watch.

 

[The Grayfox]

I did download it out of curiosity but to be honest I didn't watch the whole thing. I skipped around a lot. I thought it was weird that the trios didn't get entrances, unless that was just in the rip I got. I saw a poster of the event beforehand and kind of chuckled to myself that it basically looked like a WWE rejects poster. The idea to build homegrown talent didn't stick around apparently.

The bad (for me):

I really don't like the Bucks. I know that's the idea obviously, they're smarmy heels. But I don't care whether they're babyface or heel, I do not like them, I do not like their work and I wish they'd retire and go away. I very much look at them as "go away heat."

Speaking of people I don't like, Mercedes. I skipped her match, and apparently didn't miss anything according to you and a lot of other people. I don't like her as a worker and judging by the stupid shit she posts and the things she says, I wouldn't like her as a person either. She is all hype, no delivery and not the star she thinks she is. TK way overpaid for her. I love that she confirmed that she was going to return to WWE at WM39 and kind of slyly led people to believe the reason she didn't was the money, which everyone basically knew anyway. Good call going out and telling people the company you work for was a last resort.

The good (for me):

Danielson and Swerve are both excellent workers and worthy of main eventing. I'm glad to see Bryan isn't hanging it up just yet, although I think it'll be soon. Maybe by the end of the year/early next year.

I still say MJF is the best they have. He's very believable and so good at making people hate him. He's a damn good worker too. I'm not going to say. I thought him and Ospreay had a really good match.

Jericho did indeed look really out of shape. Him wearing trunks is very unsettling lol. He must know how ridiculous he looks. When he did the lionsault, I thought he was going to land on his head.

I have a feeling we're going to see Nigel vs. Bryan this year, which will be really cool. Ricochet will probably do well in AEW since he's all in-ring work, no charisma

 

[DE4life]

I'm not really sure how I feel about the Bucks. They've had some great matches in AEW which I've definitely enjoyed, but there are parts of their schtick which annoy me. mainly the gratuitous use of false finishes in most of their matches. It's a pet peeve of mine in general and the Bucks often take it to an unnecessary extreme. In general I don't mind them, but in terms of the initial four that formed the genesis of the company (Cody, Omega, Bucks), they are certainly the least interesting.

I really liked Mercedes during her tenure in NXT and her early days on Raw, particularly her feud with Charlotte. She was doing good work back then. Nowadays I'm not so sure. Her match at All In was pretty poor, but Britt was probably more culpable then Mercedes in that instance. I've never thought Mercedes' was that good on the mic - she almost slurs her words at times which is weird to listen to, especially in an extended promo. I guess we'll see how her AEW tenure pans out, but I can't imagine she'll end up being worth what Khan is paying her. It was definitely disrespectful to publicly state, essentially, that she came to AEW purely for the money and that otherwise she'd be in WWE. Pretty disrespectful.

As far as Bryan is concerned, yeah, one imagines his time as a full-time wrestler is drawing to a close very soon. To be honest though, it's great that we got another long run out of him considering his 2016 prognosis and temporary retirement. I do think he'll continue to wrestle, possibly even fairly frequently, but with plenty of breaks in between.

I soured on MJF pretty hard during his babyface run with Adam Cole. It didn't align with his previously established character at all, and the whole thing came off as jarring and phony to me. I know the hardcore AEW fans were behind it, but viewership tanked pretty hard during this period so I don't think the view was widely shared amongst casual viewers. For me that entire run nerfed everything cool and interesting about MJF's character. He's back to being a heel now, but yeah, I'm definitely less interested now than I was.

Considering how hard Nigel has been going in on Danielson during commentary, yeah, you'd have to assume that match will happen if Nigel is up to it. Particularly with TK being such an ROH mark.

I actually think Ricochet has solid in-ring charisma, he just has none when it comes to promos. They basically need to restrict his mic time and focus on his in-ring abilities. Problem is you could argue they already have too many wrestlers in that bracket, so adding another seems unnecessary. I guess we'll see how it pans out.

 

[The Grayfox]

Yeah, I was referring to Ricochet's mic skills. They're just not there and I don't think ever will be, which means he'll never be a total package wrestler. He is great in the ring and has amazing athleticism, but he is not believable outside of the ring at all. He's one of the worst talkers ever lol. As much as AEW marks will say talking isn't important, it is. Storytelling is important to wrestling and part of that is and always has been talking. There's a reason the best of the best of all time could talk anyone into a building, could make crowds love or hate them, etc. There's this idea that because WWE is "soap opera bullshit" that AEW doesn't have to do anything even close because that's what makes them the outlaw promotion and makes them different, etc. It's such a stupid argument. Again, Ricochet is great in the ring. Will people ever put him in the same category as Ric Flair? Randy Savage? Shawn Michaels? Ricky Steamboat? Dusty Rhodes? Roddy Piper? The answer is "no and it's not even close" to all of them.

I watched the highlights of Bash in Berlin -- I didn't think the card was great to be honest, so I didn't really want to watch 3 hours of it. Gunther and Orton had a good match, the strap match was alright, Cody and KO had a nice opener. I find it strange that when WWE does shows outside of the US and Canada (besides the UK), they're so uneventful. And that's how this one felt. It had the same energy as a Saudi show, except the crowd was more into it. Just felt 'meh.'

 

[DE4life]

Yeah, non-UK foreign televised events are basically glorified house shows, but without the freedom that performers get from performing untelevised. Makes the whole thing feel a bit neutered, although the crowds are always fantastic on these shows at least. They have tried to make the Saudi shows feel a bit more important as that deal has progressed (probably because the Saudis were unhappy with their events being perceived as unimportant) but overall you never believe anything really monumental will happen at a Saudi show. There are the exceptions though - like Super ShowDown 2020 where Goldberg beat the Fiend for the title in one of the dumbest booking decisions ever made.

 

[DE4life]

Just realised AEW have another PPV tonight - is it really wise to have All In and All Out literally two weeks apart from each other? I swear they did this last year as well.

 

[The Grayfox]

I didn't watch it and from what I read, I didn't miss much? I read something about CM Punk chants, which is no surprise since they were in Chicago. Two PPVs in two weeks is a bit much for AEW, or any promotion for that matter. If it wasn't for the network (Peacock for me), I wouldn't be watching WWE PPVs either. I couldn't go back to ordering those after getting them all for 15/month.

I've been going back and watching early 90s WCW PPV's. I'm watching Slamboree 1993 as I type this. Some of it is really corny, but this is right after Bill Watts got let go and the production value went way up. I still have a soft spot for this era. Plus, they have Saturday Night episodes from 92-94, so I can watch the build up to each event as well. I'm not sure why they stopped adding Saturday Night episodes, but they did. I can't wait until the contract with Peacock is up.

Sid passing away recently made me nostalgic for the 90s. I watched a Sid powerbomb compilation on the Tube the other night -- holy fuck, Sid's powerbomb was CLEAN. I had forgotten how good it was. I just watched him hit it on Van Hammer. Even on big guys, perfect almost every time. Unless you're Brian Pillman in War Games, then... ouch.

 

[DE4life]

Will watch All Out today, passively whilst doing other things. Haven't seen any results yet.

I love watching the old WCW shows and PPVs. There's just something very cosy about them. Hard to explain because, as you say, they are obviously corny and you'd be hard-pressed to describe it as compelling entertainment - but at the same time, it's comforting. There's some kind of magic there, even if the quality of the show isn't especially good.

I missed a lot of Sid's prime years to be honest. I only started watching in '96, so I totally missed his WCW and WWE runs in the early 90's - which were essentially his peak years. I was pretty much full on WCW in 1996 and 1997, so I didn't see any of Sid's WWE stuff during this time - and when he came to WCW that was when I was switching from WCW to WWE due to the declining quality of WCW's product, lol. So just bad timing really in terms of my interests and where Sid was.

 

[The Grayfox]

I think you hit the nail on the head. It is comforting in some strange way. This is the era where Paul Roma was a Horseman, which is embarrassing. But the quality of wrestling is surprisingly quite good.



This is the compilation I watched. Some really good looking powerbombs in there.

 

[DE4life]

He somehow made the powerbomb look both clean and devastating at the same time. Requires crazy strength, especially for some of those guys. Can't do your back much good either!

I watched All Out... eh, it was okay. Goes without saying it suffered from being the second PPV in two weeks, however...

MJF and Garcia was a decent match with a weak finish. The story was simple enough, and I like wrestling when the story is simple to follow.

Bucks Vs BCC tag title match was pointless.

Pac and Ospreay had a solid match for their kind of style. Entertaining to watch.

Willow and Statlander actually did a pretty good job in their match too. Shame Statlander can't cut a promo worth a damn.

Couldn't have cared less about the four way match. Absolute waste of whatever Okada had as starpower before AEW cooled him down.

Mone Vs Shida sucked. That's two PPVs in a row where Mercedes' match has just been shit. First time around Britt legitimately looked off the pace, but if you can't get a good match out of Shida then you're in trouble.

Danielson and Perry's match was fine, but not sure it needed to go 28 minutes considering the outcome was never in question. No idea why the Bucks would show up only to then vanish again. BCC turning on Danielson seems like a cool angle, but why take it to the extreme of Moxley putting a plastic bag over Danielson's head to suffocate him? That kind of nonsense ruins any immersion for me as it's so completely unrealistic. The only positive was JR, who sold it like a pro on commentary. Genuinely couldn't tell if the segment had actually irritated him or whether he was just acting, but either way, good job.

Swerve and Hangman's cage match was pretty brutal and worthy of a blowoff, assuming that it was. I think I read Swerve is having time off so it sounds like it. Anyway, if this ultra-violent kind of wrestling is your thing then this will tick all the boxes. I don't like it that much, so for me it was just OK.

Overall not a great show. Two matches I didn't care about at all and one that really sucked. Last two matches were the only ones arguably worthy of shelling out a second lot of money for an AEW PPV in the space of two weeks.

 

[DE4life]

I also watched an old WCW PPV today - Halloween Havoc 1994. That certainly was an interesting one, showing the best and worst of WCW at the time.

Johnny B. Badd vs Honky Tonk Man ... well, it was what it was. I actually thought Mero did a good job with the JBB character, he was always over as a face and put on good matches. Not much he could do with Honky, mind, who was never particularly good. The ending of the match was nonsensical though. They announce two minutes until the end of the match, so Honky proceeds to apply a chinlock? I could understand JBB keeping the pace slow as a time-limit draw means he keeps the TV title, but Honky's lack of urgency made zero sense. Even the commentators made note of it. Weird.

Stars & Stripes Vs Pretty Wonderful... well, the match itself was fine, but nothing special.

I had forgotten about Dave/Evad Sullivan... now this was bad. Basically WCW doing Eugene long before WWE ever conceived of the character. Dave Sullivan coming out to "I Want To Be a Hulkamanic" was unbelievably pathetic. Match itself between the "brothers" of Dave and Kevin Sullivan also sucked massively. Terrible stuff.

Dustin Rhodes Vs Arn Anderson was alright, but not really a PPV calibre match in any respect. Maybe for 1994 though?

It was weird seeing a flashback to a "Stunning" Steve Austin promo where he's basically talking exactly like Stone Cold - even uses "the bottom line" and "mealy mouth". Makes you realise that SCSA really was just a tweaking of Austin's overall presentation in WCW. The fact he's facing fucking Hacksaw is a travesty though. Austin loses by DQ with that ridiculous over the top rope = DQ rule WCW used whenever it suited them to use it.

Bossman looks like an idiot in the 'Guardian Angel' attire. Fair to say he never got going in WCW. Your typical brawl between two beefy dudes in himself and Vader - it was alright, but apparently they'd been feuding for something like six months by this point, so I imagine by now this pairing was getting old.

Terry Funk & Bunkhouse Buck Vs Nasty Boys... yeah just fuck off with this one. I refuse to watch any Nasty Boys match, those two are the absolute worst.

I was actually surprised to find myself being highly entertained by Hogan Vs Flair in the cage. Obviously in retrospect the stipulation of Flair retiring didn't last long, so that takes some of the shine off the outcome, but the match itself was pretty fun. Far more so than the encounters they'd have in the future. There were some issues with overbooking at the end - but overall, my expectations were exceeded.

Beefcake turning on Hogan at the end is a 'meh' moment that becomes a 'for fuck's sake' moment when you realise this is the beginning of a feud which culminates in the Starrcade '94 main event. Sad.

 

[The Grayfox]

I'm watching Halloween Havoc '93 right now, so I'll get to '94 soon enough. How fucking good was William Regal during this time period? What a great heel. He's taking on Davey Boy Smith on this show and surprisingly pulled a decent match out of him. What a genius of a worker Regal was though, he's so fucking smooth. Watching these shows really makes me long for the days when I was a kid getting lost in pro wrestling. It was so good.

 

[The Grayfox]

Watching more '93 WCW, some of the finishes feel fucking ancient. World title matches ending in clotheslines, tag matches ending with a stomp? I thought I was watching 1950's wrestling for a minute. Even by 90's standards, they're some of the worst finishes ever.

 

[DE4life]

I can remember Meltzer writing in a 1994 Observer something like "people just don't understand how good Regal really is", and it's definitely true. As a kid I didn't care for him, but as an adult he's incredible to watch as a performer during his better years.

WCW had a lot of weird finishes tbh. I can remember one Nitro in 1996 where Rick Steiner randomly pinned Booker T (or might have been Stevie Ray, it was one of them) after a clothesline out of the corner, lol. Came out of nowhere and the clothesline didn't even look particularly powerful. Just your typical straight-arm clothesline. Austin got pinned in 1994 from a backdrop from Duggan literally at the start of the match. Lost the title as well - either TV or US, can't remember now. Probably TV.

There's another finish in 1996 where one of Harlem Heat covers Lex Luger (I think) with one of HH blatantly holding Luger's legs over the ropes on the outside, lmao. Impossible for the ref not to see but he counted it anyway.

The over the top rope DQ's were the worst, though, purely because they were so inconsistent. Basically that rule was only in affect if it furthered the story being told, otherwise it was ignored. I think that stopped after 1996 when the cruiserweights came to prominence, because basically every match would have ended in DQ, but that was a really stupid rule.

 

[The Grayfox]

I want to say the over the top rope DQs were a Bill Watts thing. That guy was really stuck in the 'glory days.' I remember reading that he would fine wrestlers for going to the top rope. He removed the mats on the outside of the ring, lowered all the lights. He wanted everything to look old and it's the worst part about 1991-1992 WCW. Another thing I'm noticing watching all this old WCW is the amount of overtime draws, especially in TV title matches. I don't know if people just really didn't want to do the job or what, but holy shit there's a ton of draws. Also a lot of kick-outs at 3.1. Nobody wanted to stay down and look weak and it really sort of hurts the product watching it back now. It's weird because I don't remember a lot of that in WWE at the time.

The Austin/Duggan match was for the US title at Fall Brawl in 1994. I remember because I owned that VHS as a kid and watched it a lot. I didn't think much of it at the time, but seeing it now, it was pretty weird. It was pretty close to Austin leaving WCW.

 

[DE4life]

What's strange is that even though it absolutely was a stupid Bill Watts idea, they somehow persisted with it well into 1996. As late as July 1996 they were still using this rule (Scott Norton gets DQ'd against Dave Taylor at one of the Disney MGM shows from that summer for throwing him over the top rope). Like, you'd have thought they'd have ditched that nonsense as soon as Watts left. I swear they just kept it as a convenient way to have somebody lose by DQ occasionally, because the rule was enforced extremely inconsistently.

I think the DQ finishes and 3.1 kickouts all stem from a lack of proper leadership. In WWE back then, if Vince says you're losing, then you're losing. Start kicking up a fuss and, unless you're Shawn Michaels, you're in for a bad time. There really was no such authority in WCW, even during their peak, so you got a lot of screwy finishes and wrestlers trying to go into business for themselves.

After seeing that Duggan angle, you can't blame Stone Cold for leaving. That was just after Hogan had come in and brought all of his friends - Duggan, Earthquake, Beefcake, etc, along for the ride. It's pretty ridiculous that the exact same thing happened 15 years later in TNA. The big difference being that TNA was never in a position to ever overtake WWE, and there was no hot nWo angle on the horizon to give the company a boost. If the nWo hadn't come along, Hogan's run in WCW would be seen in a very different light. He didn't move the needle enough to justify his contract, and the fans were rapidly turning on him at the end of '95 going into '96. Hogan is incredibly fortunate that WCW caught lightning in a bottle with the nWo angle and inserted him as the centrepiece. Don't get me wrong - he was a big part of that and deserves credit for it, but if it had never happened I can only see diminishing returns for a babyface Hogan in WCW until his contract eventually expired. I don't think he ever would have turned heel had the nWo not happened.

 

[The Grayfox]

Yeah, just putting the US title on Duggan is laughable now. I didn't like it then either, but watching it now, it's completely ridiculous. Getting deep into 1994 WCW PPVs as an adult is difficult. Once Hogan came in, the quality seriously dipped. not EVERYTHING, but certainly all the main events, everything with The Butcher, Avalanche, etc. It's just really, really bad. Hogan basically came in and they tried to go WWE lite and man it didn't work.

Crowds started shitting on Hogan almost immediately too. You have to wonder if the nWo angle never came about, would Hogan's WCW run had been an abject failure? I lean towards yes on that. The undercard matches in '94 going into '95 are still good though.

 

[The Grayfox]

Also, I thought I liked Michael Buffer. I don't. At all.

 

[DE4life]

Yeah, just putting the US title on Duggan is laughable now. I didn't like it then either, but watching it now, it's completely ridiculous. Getting deep into 1994 WCW PPVs as an adult is difficult. Once Hogan came in, the quality seriously dipped. not EVERYTHING, but certainly all the main events, everything with The Butcher, Avalanche, etc. It's just really, really bad. Hogan basically came in and they tried to go WWE lite and man it didn't work.

Crowds started shitting on Hogan almost immediately too. You have to wonder if the nWo angle never came about, would Hogan's WCW run had been an abject failure? I lean towards yes on that. The undercard matches in '94 going into '95 are still good though.

I think if you start in 1994 it isn't so bad, but if you come from 1992 and 1993 into 1994, yeah, it sucks how WCW becomes a poor man's version of 1980s WWF. It's all Hogan knew and he did draw decent PPV buyrates that way, but with the huge cut he was taking from those buyrates, WCW barely benefitted from it, if at all.

So yeah, probably if the nWo angle hadn't come along Hogan's run would have been seen a failure for WCW as a company. Slight uptick in PPV buys (when Hogan was main eventing) but no additional profit due to all the newly generated profit essentially going straight into Hogan's bank account. Non-Hogan PPVs drawing the same if not worse than before, so no improvement there either. No noticeable difference in TV ratings, and by the time Nitro started in 1995 Hogan had been there a while, so impossible to gauge what effect he had on those ratings.

Also, I thought I liked Michael Buffer. I don't. At all.

Paid a fortune to botch at least one line a show, when he usually only announced the main event. Who can forget Bret 'Hitman' Clark - a mistake he made not once but twice, lmao. I get why WCW brought him in - big fight feel, crediblity, etc - and it definitely did add something at the time. Should have just done PPVs though - always found it weird when he'd do a Nitro main event. Was probably going to end in a DQ finish anyway so why bother?