Let's talk wrasslin'

[The Grayfox]

They may still have the library on Netflix. They do have some stuff on Peacock, just not everything the Network had. But you can still watch all of Nitro, the WCW PPVs, ECW, etc. Basically there's a separate WWE section within Peacock and I assume it'll be much the same on Netflix. It's definitely not ideal though.

The thing with Hogan is that I genuinely think he is a terrible human being and at this point, I don't want to see him on my screen, whether it is old or not. I skip all of his promo time. Any time he opens his mouth, it's a hard pass for me. He did a lot for wrestling -- even if that was only happenstance. I think most of us can agree that he was out for himself and pro wrestling experiencing a boom period came second to that. Regardless, he was a big part of making pro wrestling as big as it became and I will give credit where it's due. Begrudgingly. Outside of that though, Terry Bollea can get fucked.

The Sting not having a tan thing is really, really fucking stupid. It seems so hard to believe on the surface, but then when you take into account who we're talking about here, Mr. "That Doesn't Work For Me, Brother", it's actually not hard to believe at all. The guy who has spent all his time in darkness, in the rafters, away from everyone doesn't have a tan?! Get the fuck out of here! I don't believe it! Just stupid logic. I actually like Bischoff's podcast, besides all the time he spends making excuses for Hogan, but this was one of his really bad takes. He specifically says Sting showed up to Starrcade looking out of shape and didn't get a tan. First of all, he looks fine in the ring. Second of all... as previously mentioned, who gives a shit about the tan?!

 

[DE4life]

They may still have the library on Netflix. They do have some stuff on Peacock, just not everything the Network had. But you can still watch all of Nitro, the WCW PPVs, ECW, etc. Basically there's a separate WWE section within Peacock and I assume it'll be much the same on Netflix. It's definitely not ideal though.

The thing with Hogan is that I genuinely think he is a terrible human being and at this point, I don't want to see him on my screen, whether it is old or not. I skip all of his promo time. Any time he opens his mouth, it's a hard pass for me. He did a lot for wrestling -- even if that was only happenstance. I think most of us can agree that he was out for himself and pro wrestling experiencing a boom period came second to that. Regardless, he was a big part of making pro wrestling as big as it became and I will give credit where it's due. Begrudgingly. Outside of that though, Terry Bollea can get fucked.

The Sting not having a tan thing is really, really fucking stupid. It seems so hard to believe on the surface, but then when you take into account who we're talking about here, Mr. "That Doesn't Work For Me, Brother", it's actually not hard to believe at all. The guy who has spent all his time in darkness, in the rafters, away from everyone doesn't have a tan?! Get the fuck out of here! I don't believe it! Just stupid logic. I actually like Bischoff's podcast, besides all the time he spends making excuses for Hogan, but this was one of his really bad takes. He specifically says Sting showed up to Starrcade looking out of shape and didn't get a tan. First of all, he looks fine in the ring. Second of all... as previously mentioned, who gives a shit about the tan?!

Netflix have been pretty unclear with their wording, which worries me. "Select historical content and PLEs". Not sure exactly what that means. If it's a rotating selection then they can GTF with that. I do wonder how they'll approach the Attitude & Ruthless Aggression eras. There is a lot of questionable stuff there, to say the least. Nitro, if they have it, should be pretty much unscathed as there isn't anywhere near the amount of indecent content. Practically none, during the Nitro era that matters between 1995 - 1998, anyway. Honestly, if they have the historical WWE and WCW stuff that'll do me. Whilst it's cool that ECW & other random regional stuff is on the Network, the truth is I never watch any of it. It's always old WCW or WWE shows, pretty much.

I can generally separate Hogan the performer from Bollea the person when I'm watching old shows, but his promos are indeed tedious as fuck. I don't necessarily have a problem with him being a shark in the locker room - that was just how things were in that era - but as a person he's obviously got some major flaws. I find watching Benoit difficult, although again I can separate what he did personally with his character during Nitro. It's a shame that whenever I watch him, though, I'm mainly thinking about what he did at the end of his life. It definitely takes away something from watching his classic matches.

I've read some stuff saying Bischoff and Hogan used the stupid 'tan' excuse to try and avoid mentioning how much Sting was struggling mentally at the time. If so then, to a degree, fair enough - although I think Bischoff has since talked about Sting's mental issues, and Sting himself has admitted his head wasn't really in the game at that point in time due to his demons. With that said, you still follow through with a clean victory at Starrcade 97. If you want to take the belt back off him soon-ish then fine, do it at Superbrawl or Spring Stampede. It's not like Sting was at Jake Roberts level of being unable to perform. He was capable of being a functioning champion for a couple of months, and indeed he was, even though they fucked the whole thing up in a major way. He continued to wrestle regularly until October ffs, so he clearly wasn't yet at breaking point at Starrcade 1997. It's just shitty excuses for a shitty decision they made.

Even the match itself is laid out in the worst possible way, with Hogan dominating for far too long. Sting's aura is basically destroyed within the first few minutes as Hogan pummels him. Sting should have been a fucking tornado for most of the match. Give Hogan a comeback with dirty, underhanded tactics, sure. It didn't need to be a totally one-sided affair. The problem is, up until the 'false' finish, it basically was a one-sided affair in favour of Hogan. He basically beat Sting from pillar to post, pinned him clean, and then got inexplicably screwed out of a totally fair victory. I didn't watch Starrcade 97 as a kid because, firstly, it wasn't available in the UK anyway, but even if it had been my parents wouldn't have let me order it. I remember watching the Nitro afterwards and being totally confused about what was going on. WCW was celebrating like they'd won, but there was some kind of controversy which I didn't understand. Possibly because we got a one hour edited version of the show which likely skipped some of the important stuff.

I also remember being pissed at the end of the Nitro rematch the night after Starrcade - where the broadcast ended before the match did. We didn't even get Thunder in the UK until months later, so I don't think at that point in time I actually ever got to see the end of that match. Not sure if it replayed on Nitro afterwards, but even if it did, those kinds of shenanigans really turned me off WCW, even as a 10 year old.

Speaking of Thunder, that reminds me of a Wikipedia edit I made many years ago. Originally the wikipedia entry looked like this:



Then at some point in late 2018 or early 2019 I changed it to:



Just because the idea of Hogan using his 'Observe this, brother' line in a commercial about Thunder gave me a chuckle. I expected the edit to be taken down pretty quickly, but it actually stayed up until late 2023 when someone finally removed it. Sad times. It still lives on in the Wikipedia article history and the wayback machine, though, so the memories remain.

 

[The Grayfox]

I actually did watch Starrcade '97 live and the way it ended seemed fine at the time. Then the next night they said there was a fast count -- except there wasn't. They really fucked it up and I feel like a lot of it had to do with Hogan. Even Bischoff admitted that Hogan was having second thoughts of dropping the title to Sting that night and had to be talked into it. The problem is, Bischoff spins the narrative that Hogan didn't want to do it because he didn't think Sting was up to it, when I think everybody knows he just wanted to win. People will never convince me Hogan gave a shit about the state of the business. He gave a shit about himself. That's it. You can listen to him re-write history and lie his ass off every single time he opens mouth even today. Elvis was a Hulkamaniac you say? Funny, because he died in 1977. You tried out for Metallica huh? Weird how nobody in Metallica seems to remember that. If there's one thing that drives me absolutely insane, it's liars. And even worse, it's liars who think the people they're lying to are too stupid to know it. Fuck the Hulk Hogan.

The Hogan/Sting story wrote itself without Sting really doing anything. You could compare it to Punk/Drew in modern wrestling, where they kept their feud going for months with Punk doing much of anything because of his injury, except the Hogan/Sting feud went a lot longer. It was a hot storyline, the crowd couldn't wait to see the return of Sting. They really didn't have to do much at Starrcade and they still fucked it up.

Also, you should just keep editing the Wiki article every time somebody removes it lol

I imagine the Netflix stuff is basically going to be how it is on Peacock. It is "select" stuff, but there's quite a bit of it. I can't remember now, but I don't think I've come across anything that's been heavily edited, even Attitude Era stuff. It's possible though as I haven't gone through a lot of it in quite some time.

 

[DE4life]

According to Meltzer there won't be any classic WCW or ECW stuff on Netflix. Also only select WWE historical stuff. No full Raw or Smackdown archives. Not even full archives of the Rumble or Wrestlemania. Glad I've got the all of the WCW stuff I care about downloaded!

In fairness it won't be difficult to find the WWE historical stuff via alternative means, I imagine. Also apparently Germany will still have the Network through 2025, so theoretically it's still possible to access the Network for another year via VPN.

 

[The Grayfox]

Man, that's bullshit. How do you go from having this huge library available and then as time goes on, you just remove all of it? What a fucking backwards way of doing things. I don't know why I'm surprised. It seems very on brand for them.

 

[DE4life]

My guess is that it'll be something along the lines of "data shows not enough people watch the classic content to make it worth storing on our servers". We know WWE/TKO only cares about maximising profits, they don't give a shit about preserving the legacy of wrestling or providing the fans with a digital wrestling video library.

You'll get a selection on Netflix, then if you want more they'll probably make you pay for the WWE Vault on YouTube or a Netflix bolt-on package (or packages) that unlocks some or all of the classic content.

Just another company trying to bleed their customers dry. For many the high seas will be calling again.

 

[The Grayfox]

I read a press release today that said PPV's won't be on there at all? Maybe I'm confused, but it read like they won't be streaming events and that you'll have to order that shit like the old days? Surely that can't be correct...

Then I read a comment saying that this is WWE pitting Netflix against Peacock. Their contract with Peacock runs through March 2026 I think, so it isn't a concern over here yet. But this really seems like the rest of the world is getting absolutely fucked. I thought the transition from WWE Network to Peacock was bad. But this is an absolute gutting of the streaming library.

This is the wording:

"Netflix clarified that all live WWE events on Netflix are included in the subscription cost, meaning fans won’t incur additional charges. However, the subscription plan does not include SmackDown, NXT, and WWE pay-per-view events" It says includes ALL LIVE WWE EVENTS, but then says it does not include WWE pay-per-view events. So color me fucking confused.

 

[DE4life]

I think to get Raw in the USA you would need to be subscribed to Netflix, whilst for everything else you'd need to be subscribed to Peacock, due to the contract not expiring for Smackdown, NXT and PPVs until 2026.

The rest of the world has all sorts of different agreements - some countries are keeping the Network going into at least 2027 based on existing agreements. For most the Network will cease in either 2025 or 2026, and redistribution of everything else is up in the air.

For the UK as far as I'm aware it's pretty simple - everything is on Netflix. Raw, Smackdown, NXT and PPVs. If it ain't on Netflix, it ain't anywhere.

 

[The Grayfox]

If the rumors of that eyesore of a mat are true and it's going be the mat for Raw, that is ridiculous. Vince McMahon did a lot of bad shit, he made a lot of wrong choices. His decision to never have sponsors on that mat or the surrounding ring area wasn't one of them. I thought the Prime logo was bad. Yikes.

 

[DE4life]

Yeah it looks pretty shit. You'd think WWE were desperate for money, hence needing to plaster sponsors everywhere, but they aren't. They're as profitable as they ever have been and bring in an insane amount of money from this Netflix deal alone.

At this point with the egregious sponsorship and Saudi shows raking in obscene money, and the company contrasting that with cutting talent and dismantling the Network, they are capitalism on steroids.

 

[The Grayfox]

Speaking of Saudi, the current rumor is that the Royal Rumble will be held there next year and Wrestlemania may be in 2026 or 2027 as well. How you're going to do an international Mania and give it to Saudi, I have no idea. Well actually, I do. But still, you're seriously going to give Saudi Arabia a Wrestlemania before the UK? I really, really hope when that deal expires, Endeavor tells them to fuck off.

But.

As has been talked about, they're in the business of making money. I don't think they care, whether it's horrid corporate logos all over the place, or putting on a show for the Saudi prince. Seeing a WWE ring with all of that garbage on it makes me fucking sad. Just like every time they do a Saudi show.

 

[DE4life]

I guess I should just be glad I don't watch the modern product anymore, lol. Seems I might be able to use a VPN to keep my Network subscription going for another year or so too, which would be nice.

Also I saw Edge is apparently changing his name in AEW from Adam Copeland to... Cope? lmao... wut.

 

[The Grayfox]

Yeah, he's taking a lot of shit for the name 'Cope.' Justified, imo. It's very stupid. This Edge-lite gimmick he's doing sucks. He's always going to be known as Edge. No matter how hard he tries, that is how he'll always be known, Edge from WWE. "The Rated R Superstar" Cope. Yeah, rolls right off the tongue.

I understand him wanting to leave WWE. He wanted to wrestle more. I understand that. But maybe it would've been a good opportunity to reinvent himself. Come up with a new gimmick because low-rent Edge isn't it.

 

[DE4life]

I watched WWE's debut on Netflix - first time I've seen a WWE show since WrestleMania ended, I think.

Honestly, I thought it sucked. Everything that drove me away from the product last year is still there and if anything worse than before.

The opening video with Triple H's narration was solid, but not sure why you'd use wrestling insider terms like work or shoot if you're trying to reach out to a casual audience. There were also some other weird kayfabe breaking moments, like Cole referring to Seth Rollins' real name being Colby Lopez. Why would you even mention this? In some cases you would differenciate between real and stage name - Undertaker, The Rock, etc - but not normal stage names. Makes no sense. It'd be like referring to Steve Austin as Steve Williams, or Roman Reigns as Leati Anoaʻi. It's the equivilent of an actor in a movie randomly being called their real name for a moment - it'd totally break the immersion. You either present the product as pretending to be real, or not. Mix the real and fake and it becomes a mess, like Russo's WCW / TNA runs.

Triple H's rah-rah Netflix opening was... fine, I suppose. Not sure it was necessary but whatever.

The Rock's promo made no sense. Final Boss character completely disregarded. He was basically just Dwayne Johnson, member of the bord, shilling for Netflix. Total shit. They have apparently decided to drop anything to do with Rock/Roman/Cody, too. Rock and Cody laughing about 'mama Rhodes' and hugging was just... I don't even know what to say. Insulting to anyone who invested in the storyline, and threw away a potential money angle in the future. I don't get it. Genuinely if you told me Vince booked this entire show I'd believe it, considering how poor it was.

Solo Vs Roman, same old shit. Good to see the Bloodline stuff remains a focal point of the show (/s). This was old to me a year and a half ago, it's amazing this crap is still rumbling on unabated. Even funnier is that it's the same match formula as well - slow start, higher intensity ending, run-ins, ref bump, Roman wins. Cool, good to know I haven't missed anything there.

Nice promo from Cena setting up his final run and entry into the Rumble. No problems there.

Logan Paul can do one. Waste of oxygen.

Rhea Vs Liv was a decent match, and the title change was cool.

Not sure if New Day are ever going to do anything as heels beyond complain about the crowd turning on them. From reading recaps of their heel turn thus far it seems to be all they've been doing. Move the story along already.

According to Cole, Michelle McCool is one of the greatest female wrestlers in WWE history. Lmao, yeah OK. Being married to Taker has its perks, clearly.

Drew and Jey was disappointing and boring with a weird finish. I can understand the crowd being deathly silent for most of the match tbh.

Hogan being booed out of the building during his promotional plug for his beer brand was the highlight of the show. Hulk looks really old these days. Time to stop bringing him back for these pointless spots. Nobody wants him there.

Punk and Rollins had a great match to end the show, although there's no way Punk wins that one if Vince is in charge. I thought there was going to be more to the post-match on the show, but nope.

Probably the thing I miss most from the historic shows is the lack of any storyline thread running through the show. During the Attitude Era especially WWE were great at taking an interesting story and weaving it throughout the show. Nowadays everything is boxed into individual segments in the show and, to me, it's really boring. Would have been cool to see stuff with Seth and Punk going on throughout the show, leading up to the main event, but we saw hardly anything of them until the match started. Think we saw both enter the arena and that's it. I thought Triple H might bring back more intelligent storytelling, but as far as I can tell the show remains very basic in terms of structure which limits the creative potential.

So yeah, I won't be returning to watching WWE based on this week's Raw. It just reminded me why I've totally lost interest in WWE and modern wrestling as a whole.

 

[The Grayfox]

Raw seemed like a show that wasn't really for your hardcore wrestling fan. It felt like a show for casuals, trying to a pop a big number for the Netflix debut. In that regard they succeeded as apparently 5M+ watched it. That being said, I didn't find it to be a particularly enjoyable show, save for the main event and Hogan getting booed out of the building, which was very entertaining. I'm not sure who's call it was to have Hogan come out in L.A., one of the most diverse cities in the most liberal state in the country, but it was a really bad fucking call. Whether or not it was a business move to promote his beer, it was a very bad call. It's called 'Real American Beer' for fuck's sake. If there's one state in this country that is going to roll their eyes at that stupid name, it is definitely this one. So pile on the racism, the politics, the lying, the just being a piece of shit in general and it's a very bad mix in California. But hey, whatever, he deserved it and most people think it's funny as hell.

The Rock... yeah, he completely dropped the Final Boss heel persona which tells me he isn't wrestling any time soon and didn't want to keep up with it since crowds cheer him regardless. Seems very on brand for him to start a storyline and then drop it and go away. I'm pretty sick of him anyway to be honest. When he refused to endorse Kamala Harris when he had endorsed Biden in 2020 was a really bad look. He was either a) a closet Trumper or b) too much of a coward to endorse her in the event that Trump won. We're seeing all kinds of people bend the knee for that piece of shit now, and I'll bet Dwayne will be one of them too.

Agreed with pretty much everything you wrote. The Michelle McCool thing is really stupid. Taker is always putting his wife over the same way, constantly saying she's one of the best of all time, blah blah blah. We all know why this is being said. None of it is true. For me, I don't even watch the weekly shows anymore. I catch highlights and read results and if something catches my eye, I'll check it out. I watch the big events and that's about it.

I did see that Malakai Black is expected to return to WWE in the coming months. Maybe? For real this time? Who knows?

 

[DE4life]

I haven't watched AEW in a very long time and honestly I'm not even familiar with the storylines these days, but it feels like Malakai has been totally wasted there. He had the House of Black thing but I don't remember anything particularly memorable that he or the stable has done. Granted, again, haven't really been watching so maybe I'm off base with that. I know for sure that before I stopped watching Malakai's run had been poor, though, and I doubt that has changed.

I remember watching his feud with Velveteen Dream back in NXT and thinking, wow, what a simple but awesome story they told there - with two guys that have huge potential. Obviously Velveteen turned out to be a weird creep, but Malakai, or Alestair Black as he was at the time... it feels like he should have been able to get to the next level. He was unique, he could talk, he had presence and his in-ring style was good. He had all the tools, but unfortunately for him Vince was in charge when he moved to the main roster. It was during the time period when WWE were making really weird, idiotic decisions. They had literally just started pushing him before then randomly cutting him.

If Triple H is a fan then I think he'll do well when he returns to WWE - assuming his head is in the game. I remember he had some mental health issues whilst in AEW, and obviously that could be an issue regardless of where he goes.

 

[The Grayfox]

Yeah, Black said that Vince didn't "get him." He said he had a sit-down meeting with him to go over his character and the direction and Black specifically said that Vince told him he didn't get it. And from that point on, he was pretty much lost. His NXT run was really good but his main roster run was piss poor. It didn't help that most of it was during the pandemic either. I think that if he does go back, he will do much better under Triple H. But then again... I said the same thing about Andrade. While not as bad as his run under Vince, this one also isn't very good. That could be due to Andrade himself though. He's a very good wrestler, but I think the language barrier stands in the way of character development. In Black's case, that won't be an issue at all. He's adept at telling stories and he really cares about his character.

His AEW run started off strong. He came in, attacked Cody and then beat him. House of Black was really cool at first. They were strong trios champions, they had an awesome entrance, cool theme, a really nice presentation as a whole but it just got stale due to the angles they were put in. Black, Brody and Buddy are all excellent workers in their own ways and they always delivered with what they were given, but it just wasn't much. To be honest, I'm really surprised Buddy re-signed with AEW last year because with Rhea being one of Triple H's favorites, I feel like he would've gotten a good push in WWE, plus he'd be with his wife. Brody, I totally understand being in AEW. He has some other ventures so I'm sure AEW works very well for him. I think House of Black as a WWE faction would be really interesting under the right circumstances.

So, did Conrad Thompson misspeak when he said Vince has bought a studio and is building a roster? I remember the reports that Vince was starting some sort of entertainment company. If you didn't see it, Conrad was doing an interview and said what he said, but people are now saying he was talking about this entertainment company and it's being taken out of context. But of course now the ball is rolling and people think Vince McMahon is building an old school, studio style wrestling show, kind of like what NWA does now maybe? I'm sure there are some in WWE who would go be part of it if that was the case.

 

[The Grayfox]

The Great Muta thinks your food sucks lol

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/w...spoons-dish.html?ito=native_share_article-top

 

[DE4life]

Lmao, I haven't been to a Wetherspoons in a while, but the food was always okay back in the day. It's a budget pub so you can't expect fine dining, but it used to be quite decent for the price. Possible that's no longer the case though.

 

[The Grayfox]

I actually fucking love pub food, though I've never had it in the UK, which is something I want to do one day. The U.S. is weird about food. I grew up hearing that "British food is garbage." Again, while I haven't actually eaten in the UK, I have tried many recipes from the UK and I thought they were really, really good. This is the United States we're talking about, where anything that isn't American is generally thought to be 'bullshit', which is... bullshit.

However, that ramen looks like spaghetti in broth lol.