marshall....quality amp...or piss poor?
- Thread starter Opus(sy)2
- Start date
fucking hell..........what is everyones problem with amp modelling?!?!?..............you obviously havent played a flextone live and you cant accept that amp modelling is the next step.....its advanced and easy to dial up your own sounds and to find your own unique sound.......i tryed out a mesa/boogie dual rectifier in the shop aswell as the xl..........not only was the mesa/boogie way of my budget but i was more excited by the fact that i could get way more sounds out of the line 6....and line 6 amps ARE NOT SOLID STATE...THEY ARE DIGITAL,why is amp modelling 'evil' as 7 dying trees put it.......some people cant afford to buy expensive tube amp set ups, and fucking hell.....marshall suck dick.......i have compared marshall gain to line 6 and mesa/boogie..........and fuck it was shit. and i also agree with chicken scratch.........rhino amps do sound great.
Ziller
?
dude, what do you mean "digital, not solid state?" i'm pretty certain you can't just magically amplify a signal with a dsp without there being a biiig fet or bjt power stage in there somewhere, which kind of makes it solid state, right?
but to get back to the question of modeling, i think that the ability to cut through the mix has nothing to do with the operating principle of the amp, and everything to do with eq, which i'm sure modeling amps have too ;-> the simple fact is that if all the parts of your guitar sound that matter are in the same frequency band as your bass player's, there's gonna be trouble, at least in the studio. I do understand that not all the harmonics created by analog systems can be reproduced by digital means, and that these of course contribute to the sound. maybe in the future, with more powerful dsp's.
the real question is, how much liberty will you allow yourself with your artistic tool of choice? will you opt for modeling and m4d fx where you can create any sound at the touch of a footswitch, or do you consider the amp to be an inseparable part of your instrument and let _it_ mould your sound just as your pickups, choice of body & neck etc.
edit: typo
but to get back to the question of modeling, i think that the ability to cut through the mix has nothing to do with the operating principle of the amp, and everything to do with eq, which i'm sure modeling amps have too ;-> the simple fact is that if all the parts of your guitar sound that matter are in the same frequency band as your bass player's, there's gonna be trouble, at least in the studio. I do understand that not all the harmonics created by analog systems can be reproduced by digital means, and that these of course contribute to the sound. maybe in the future, with more powerful dsp's.
the real question is, how much liberty will you allow yourself with your artistic tool of choice? will you opt for modeling and m4d fx where you can create any sound at the touch of a footswitch, or do you consider the amp to be an inseparable part of your instrument and let _it_ mould your sound just as your pickups, choice of body & neck etc.
edit: typo
xenophobe
Active Member
Ziller, tube amps and Solid State amps react differently. 100w tube power will overbear 100w solid state any time. It works like this, once you reach the peak power, 100% of solid state, it starts clipping, sounds HORRIBLE and THIN.
When you push a Tube amp past 100% it gets LOUDER, starts breaking up in a warm and pleasing way, and sounds sweet.
As I said, Tubes will outpower SS when push comes to shove.
The louder a tube amp gets, the fuller and more robust the sound, the livelier it gets.
The louder a SS Amp gets, the more fuzzy, thin and lifeless it gets.
Line 6 is SOLID STATE.
Actually, I can honestly say I HATE Line 6 gear, cause in THE REAL WORLD of playing shows and in band rehearsal THEY SUCK.
I actually PLAN on getting a POD just so I can record direct to my computer. It's great for that, or for bedroom or at home practice, but once you throw it in the mix against a tube amp of even HALF the wattage, it gets drowned out.
As ZILLER said, I consider the amp to be an extension of my soul, and nothing is better than driving tubes to their sweet spot and hearing them react to your playing.
Solid State does not REACT it PROCESSES your sound.
For a budget, it's fine, for pure TONE, it's garbage.
Then again, a man who is happy with a black and white TV and has never seen a COLOR one, it's the greatest thing in the world. Give that man a color TV, and I guarantee you that he won't turn the B&W on ever again.
Ignorance is BLISS. This holds especially true to the people who rave about Line 6.
I wish I could be happy with it, but I have seen the light.
Unfortunately, I KNOW what good tone sounds like, and I have to PAY $$$$ to get it. That sucks, but that is just the way it is. I can't settle for less.
When you push a Tube amp past 100% it gets LOUDER, starts breaking up in a warm and pleasing way, and sounds sweet.
As I said, Tubes will outpower SS when push comes to shove.
The louder a tube amp gets, the fuller and more robust the sound, the livelier it gets.
The louder a SS Amp gets, the more fuzzy, thin and lifeless it gets.
Line 6 is SOLID STATE.
Actually, I can honestly say I HATE Line 6 gear, cause in THE REAL WORLD of playing shows and in band rehearsal THEY SUCK.
I actually PLAN on getting a POD just so I can record direct to my computer. It's great for that, or for bedroom or at home practice, but once you throw it in the mix against a tube amp of even HALF the wattage, it gets drowned out.
As ZILLER said, I consider the amp to be an extension of my soul, and nothing is better than driving tubes to their sweet spot and hearing them react to your playing.
Solid State does not REACT it PROCESSES your sound.
For a budget, it's fine, for pure TONE, it's garbage.
Then again, a man who is happy with a black and white TV and has never seen a COLOR one, it's the greatest thing in the world. Give that man a color TV, and I guarantee you that he won't turn the B&W on ever again.
Ignorance is BLISS. This holds especially true to the people who rave about Line 6.
I wish I could be happy with it, but I have seen the light.
Unfortunately, I KNOW what good tone sounds like, and I have to PAY $$$$ to get it. That sucks, but that is just the way it is. I can't settle for less.
Ziller
?
I completely agree with you xeno, pushing a solid state amp like that just doesn't give the same results, but i don't think that it's relevant when talking about modeling amps. there you can just distort your sound to no end using digital signal processing, and thus the limits of solid state circuitry don't come into play. you don't want the _amplification_ circuitry to distort your sound, you just want a clean power stage that delivers your processed sound to the output without coloring it any further.
xenophobe
Active Member
Yeah, I agree with that, though most reasonable people won't push their unamplified signal into that super harsh realm OUTSIDE of the bedroom.
When you're playing at bedroom levels though, all that extra crap on the signal sounds great, but when it gets to stage\rehearsal volumes, it sounds like utter crap.
Actually tube power amp coloring can be a nice thing. That's why so many people love their Mesa's and VHT power amps running at saturation levels, cause when they're pushed they actually add some some agressive sweetness.
When Mosfet reachs it's peak though, it sounds like crap.
When you're playing at bedroom levels though, all that extra crap on the signal sounds great, but when it gets to stage\rehearsal volumes, it sounds like utter crap.
Actually tube power amp coloring can be a nice thing. That's why so many people love their Mesa's and VHT power amps running at saturation levels, cause when they're pushed they actually add some some agressive sweetness.
When Mosfet reachs it's peak though, it sounds like crap.
so ziller and xenophobe..........what tube amps do you suggest..........i would go for a mesa/boogie dual/triple rectifier but i simply dont have the money to buy one of them.......over here in england they are about £2000 which is a huge amount of money and money which i just dont have and wont have for a long time. also i dont understand what your talking about when you say the turning up the amp makes it sound harsh.........my flextone 2 xl sounds fine on stage and i have had no problems with it............but then again i was playing along side a marshall.
xenophobe
Active Member
Check out the Peavey 5150 or 5150 II, the Crate Blue Voodoo...
Those are two affordable tube heads that are getting GREAT reviews from the death\heavy\thrash type musicians.
You may have to take a drive, but call around, and TURN IT UP... no need for a distortion pedal or anything. Just plug in your guitar and you're good to go!
The Blue Voodoo goes for about $700-$800 US. Half the price of a Mesa.
If you find a place that has either AND a Flextone, go there then ask them if you and a friend can turn them up loud and play side by side. ... you'll hear the difference.
Those are two affordable tube heads that are getting GREAT reviews from the death\heavy\thrash type musicians.
You may have to take a drive, but call around, and TURN IT UP... no need for a distortion pedal or anything. Just plug in your guitar and you're good to go!
The Blue Voodoo goes for about $700-$800 US. Half the price of a Mesa.
If you find a place that has either AND a Flextone, go there then ask them if you and a friend can turn them up loud and play side by side. ... you'll hear the difference.
xenophobe
Active Member
Also, what's most noticable, is when you throw out chords, with a tube amp you will hear each string ring out, regardless of the distortion or gain factor.
With the Line 6 stuff I've played loud, there's so much background digital overtones and hiss that each string does not ring out clearly.
With an all tube head, there is much more definition, articulation and clarity with your playing, even at comparable levels of distortion.
Some people do prefer the solid state sound over tube sound.
I'm into modern death metal and old school thrash type stuff. Just to let you know what type of music I'm into.
With the Line 6 stuff I've played loud, there's so much background digital overtones and hiss that each string does not ring out clearly.
With an all tube head, there is much more definition, articulation and clarity with your playing, even at comparable levels of distortion.
Some people do prefer the solid state sound over tube sound.
I'm into modern death metal and old school thrash type stuff. Just to let you know what type of music I'm into.
haha cool.........well in my band there are2 guitarist, me and one other, we both play with flextone2 xls so we have no problems. one thing though that is really great about the line 6 stuff is the recording capabilities........but anyway i am all for this amp modelling stuff and it is very exciting but if i had a huge amount of money i would go for a tube. 
ziller and xenophobe...........id just like to say...........that you guys..............make me feel inadequate! 
Ziller
?
nah man, you ain't inadequate (although i quite enjoy the implied compliment, thank you . what matters is that you have a sound that _you_ like, it's all about doing your own thang.
I'm no amp expert, what i know comes from studying at the ol' uni of tech and reading a lot of guitar mags, and some stuff on the net, although good information is sometimes hard to find.
if you have spare cash and an interest, i recommend buying a university electronics textbook and learning fun stuff about amplification.
. what matters is that you have a sound that _you_ like, it's all about doing your own thang.I'm no amp expert, what i know comes from studying at the ol' uni of tech and reading a lot of guitar mags, and some stuff on the net, although good information is sometimes hard to find.
if you have spare cash and an interest, i recommend buying a university electronics textbook and learning fun stuff about amplification.
yeah ok cool.........because i know nothing about amps.......i repeat......NOTHING......i know my stuff about guitars and i know what tones i like etc.......but i dont get anything else
7 Dying Trees
Bastard Albino Elf
As far as my opinion on modelling goes it is something along the lines of this:
->You are still using mosfets/bjt's in some part of the amplification process, they might have some compensation for it's characteristics, but if we are realistic, then how else would you say you are going to amplify a 5/3 volt signal coming out of the DSP chip? And that has to go throuh a D/A Converter... Solid State? I think so, just solid state with a complicated function dictating how it equalizes and changes the imput signal.
->Solid State inherently produces different harmonics etc when distorted or puished, this is due to the device characteristics, nothing else.
->Noise in solid stae is different to noise in valves. Also the principle of amplification is different. Valve wise we are talking about boosting the signal up to a couple of hundred volts before using a power transformer to turn this into current. Slightly different
->Discrete calculations within the DSP. You are using finite length coefficients, finite length variables. You are going to introduce error.
->A model is a model, which per definition is an approximation.
->All an amp modeller is trying to do is to approximate an amplifier in a round about way using loads of processing.
Basically, there is nothing as magic as the sound of a good tube amp cranked, and there's the whole feel of it as well. You get responsivness, clarity etc out of it. Have a look at the modelling a mesa rectifier, crank them both up side by side (dial a good tone into the mesa first, and I don't mean the gain=10,bass=10,mid=0,treble=10 trype arrangement, because if you are going down that route you are not going to get that much decent out of anything...) and then play a chord. See which one sounds clearer.
Not knocking the modellers though, they are great for practicingh, recording and such, which is exactly what they were designed for.
->You are still using mosfets/bjt's in some part of the amplification process, they might have some compensation for it's characteristics, but if we are realistic, then how else would you say you are going to amplify a 5/3 volt signal coming out of the DSP chip? And that has to go throuh a D/A Converter... Solid State? I think so, just solid state with a complicated function dictating how it equalizes and changes the imput signal.
->Solid State inherently produces different harmonics etc when distorted or puished, this is due to the device characteristics, nothing else.
->Noise in solid stae is different to noise in valves. Also the principle of amplification is different. Valve wise we are talking about boosting the signal up to a couple of hundred volts before using a power transformer to turn this into current. Slightly different
->Discrete calculations within the DSP. You are using finite length coefficients, finite length variables. You are going to introduce error.
->A model is a model, which per definition is an approximation.
->All an amp modeller is trying to do is to approximate an amplifier in a round about way using loads of processing.
Basically, there is nothing as magic as the sound of a good tube amp cranked, and there's the whole feel of it as well. You get responsivness, clarity etc out of it. Have a look at the modelling a mesa rectifier, crank them both up side by side (dial a good tone into the mesa first, and I don't mean the gain=10,bass=10,mid=0,treble=10 trype arrangement, because if you are going down that route you are not going to get that much decent out of anything...) and then play a chord. See which one sounds clearer.
Not knocking the modellers though, they are great for practicingh, recording and such, which is exactly what they were designed for.
Ziller
?
Darthlardo
food
The Metal Master
The Ace of Spades
xenophobe
Active Member
Funny you guys are saying "just like dokken" and quoting EVH...
All the stuff they have ever played through has been modded to hell, and if you ever saw them playing a "Marshall"... that's basically what it says on the outside, but inside, it's either the remnants of what was a marshall or a completely replacement board inside... a number of companies do this really well...
And if you think that's their stuido tone? Not a chance in hell...
Zakk Wylde is a great exapmle... do you really think those Marshalls are Marshalls?
If so, he's got you fooled really good!
All the stuff they have ever played through has been modded to hell, and if you ever saw them playing a "Marshall"... that's basically what it says on the outside, but inside, it's either the remnants of what was a marshall or a completely replacement board inside... a number of companies do this really well...
And if you think that's their stuido tone? Not a chance in hell...
Zakk Wylde is a great exapmle... do you really think those Marshalls are Marshalls?
If so, he's got you fooled really good!
Sacha
Throbbing Member
Has anyone hear heard of or tried the VG-88? It is pretty much the king of modelling, although it requires a special pickup and cable to use...It can change tunings at the touch of a button, change from a believable Strat to Les Paul to acoustic 12 string like nothing, and has some crazy synth type sounds as well. Now, don't get me wrong, the distortion STILL pales in comparison to a Boogie or Bogner, but it works fine in my band as both me and the other git player use the same rig: VG-88 into compressor/noise gate straight into a Mackie powered speaker(SRM450). Overall, the most versatile peice of gear i've owned, kind of a jack of all trades...
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