Metal connections

[chrisvp]

Heya Spiff , will send you a pm
btw , thankyou for the reply mate

 

[phlogiston]

I'm gonna play the part of someone who doesn't really care one way or another for a minute:

Chris, most of your points in your reply to Spiff don't actually seem support the counter motion to "Australian metal is dead", unless I've misunderstood them. Same as LT for that matter.

Sounds to me like the argument is similar to "Uncle Morty's not dead, he's just as alive as anyone else, except for the heart-lung bypass and dialysis machines!"

Note that I'm not saying there aren't heaps of great Aussie metal bands out there who all *deserve* to be huge, (I wouldn't actually know, I'm not really as metal as I make out, Slayer connections aside), but from where I'm sitting there doesn't seem to be as much metal out there as many of the other scenes. And I think that's all Spiff is trying to say, as well.

 

[Lord Tim]

I disagree there!

What I was getting at was that if it's dead here, then it's really dead everywhere (with a few exceptions) because we're about on par with everywhere else more or less.

When we hear of a metal band coming in from overseas, they generally have more of a fanfare with the fact they have a bunch of promo happening here to let us know they're coming (the promoter isn't gonna fly them all the way here without making them a lot more in the public eye, right?) so we'd all assume they're bigger because we're hearing more about them. That's the same as, say, Psycroptic playing in Zagreb for instance - when we saw their promo there on the first EU tour they did in 2004, there was posters all over the place and heaps of people were talking about them.

Where I think it really sucks here is that there's no infrastructure to help out musicians who are actively trying to make a difference. It's no secret that we've been working our asses off to get to where we are now, all through the time with Dungeon and into LORD. And getting any financial assistance or even promotional assistance from the government is next to impossible without a lot of screwing around (export media grants, etc.)

With a lot of places in EU like Sweden and Finland, the government actually encourages musicians to be successful which is why you see so much product coming from those countries (of course, for the 10 we hear, there's 100 which are utter crap and fail too). The percentage of bands who can make it is greater, and that's even helped by the fact it's easier to get to the bigger festivals, etc.

So yeah, if you compare metal (or any non-mainstream genre/subgenre) to the mainstream in Australia, it's doing it fairly tough, but I think it's still a very vibrant scene with a lot going on when you look just under the surface and I as I mentioned earlier, I think we're doing more or less as good as other places around the world that we may consider are doing better than us once you really look into the specifics of it.

 

[phlogiston]

I guess that makes sense. I suppose that's what comes from being on the outside. If I stop and make comparisons to the IT industries it's a bit the same there.

All of the obvious cool shit is being done overseas, but it doesn't mean there isn't stuff bubbling away here.

I'm convinced!

 

[Lord Tim]

But yeah, to agree to a point with everyone who thinks we're in trouble, there's a LOT more that could be done with the scene here to get it more recognition. I'm sick of eating poorly, I wanna be fuckin' rich, goddammit! HAHA!

 

[salty]

The prog scene here is going great at the moment.

There's so much prog rock/metal happening at the moment. Especially here in Brisbane.

It just sucks that the venue side of things is suffering.

There are enough great metal bands here (I'm talking Brisbane...dunno about anywhere else really) to probably support a few venues around the place, but none are into it, or they ARE into it for a while and then get sick of not being able to sell 12 dollar drinks to raver morons who'll pay anything to listen to shit music and dance around like knobs.

There's also the fact that metal fans at times are lazy cunts who won't go to gigs and support the bands they like. Either because a venue is too far away or because they just cant be fucked and assume that they'll play again at some stage.

 

[Lord Tim]

^^ that's a big point. People will make the effort to see an international band but not a local one.

I agree that if you're not into a local band you shouldn't go to see them just to "support da scene, man" but I think there's enough diversity on the metal scene that there should be something for everyone that's on par with a lot of the internationals coming out, and people should try and make the same kind of effort to see the local guys.

 

[Celestial-Todd]

Metal fans (at least in Sydney) are also cheap.... shit gigs at the Lansdowne will be PACKED (I should know, I played there many times) because they don't charge entry. But try to charge $10 for a shit-hot gig at the Empire, people stay away

 

[mattt]

There are several reasons why the majority of Australian bands can't take on the world and I will list some of them below.

1. Production: It irritates the hell out of me when bands release an album with sub-par production quality. I know for a fact that it is possible to get a great sound at an affordable price yet many bands are either ignorant to this fact or want the 'raw' sound, which in this day and age is an absolute joke.

2. Presentation: Whether you like it or not, presentation is a huge thing. People will always judge things on the way they look and there is nothing worse than a dodgy looking photo, logo, website, myspace page. LOTS of people are put off by these so it is paramount that these areas are top class which is an area where most Australian metal bands fail miserably. A band might have generic music but if they have A-class presentation and know how to market themselves they will get a lot further than you.

Tim & Chris, this isn't directed at either of you as I know on the presentation side of things you guys do well. This is just a statement regarding the majority of the scene.

3. Sacrafice: If you really want to make it in music you have to sacrafice things. We all know that living in Australia is a huge obstacle but if you truly want to succeed at all costs you have to be willing to go without a lot of things - normal family life, kids etc etc. You cannot expect to have it all if you are still trying to get your name out there. You cannot say that 'oh I have kids, I am trying to make my name in metal and we get ignored' - You made a huge mistake - you had kids. To truly get where you want in life you have to sacrafice things - you just have to decide what you really want.


Many metal bands are stuck in the whole 'metal rules', 'I am so metal', 'people who don't listen to metal suck', 'metal forever', 'in union we stand' bullshit which is so cheesey and pathetic and that is how most bands look to the outside world and to jaded metalheads.


When I said metal is dead - is that really true? Ofcourse not. People say punk is dead but it's not. There are plenty of punk bands around but the majority of the scene is just tired and cliched.

 

[mattt]

Got it in one. I pay for our forum, I make the rules. Welcome to the real world. Done. Move along.

It's not done at all.

 

[KoichCPA]

You call my posts trollish yet you put up with KoichCPA a lot longer and his posts were blunt insults for years. Obviously after posting on Maiden Downunder/Lord/Dungeon forums I became aware that that was the way he conducted himself which is fine as I knew he was just a shit stirrer.

Yeah, but, I'm cooler than you are.

 

[Lord Tim]

It's not done at all.

Dude, it IS done, let it go. Like it or not, you don't post on our forum now so therefore it is over.

And for what it's worth, your last post on here regarding the music industry stuff was intelligent and insightful. If you made more posts like that instead of the trollish one liner you made earlier more often, then you'd be more than welcome to post on our forum.

And also for what it's worth, I do agree with most of the points you brought up in your post too.

 

[Winmar]

1. Production: It irritates the hell out of me when bands release an album with sub-par production quality. I know for a fact that it is possible to get a great sound at an affordable price yet many bands are either ignorant to this fact or want the 'raw' sound, which in this day and age is an absolute joke.

I reckon things are a lot better than they used to be on that front. Throughout the 1990s you could hear a metal album and know it was Australian just from the (shitty) production). Alchemist for example always had great music but very average production (IMO). These days, however, things are a lot better. It doesn't mean that there isn't a whole heap of shittily-produced Australian metal albums, but the ones who put a bit of effort into it/buy ProTools can end up with something really good. The first one to really impress me was Vanishing Point's Tangled In Dream album. I'm not just saying that because Chris posts here either!

 

[Priest of Evil]

Tim you've done a great job in explaining the similarities in metal around the world.

Its the sheer distance - from state to state AND continent to country that is the largest obstacle, for the exact reasons Tim's stated.

Mattt: Sure some groups are guilty as charged in some areas but issues like having children/spouses doesnt neccessarily hold people back from musical careers. Some may chose to place family as a priority but there are plenty of musicians in touring bands who support families. Perhaps the difference is that its easier to tour - cost effectively - as Tim already pointed out in places like Europe or even the US compared to our homeland.

Yes Australian bands could try harder but the slope is pretty steep and physical cost of continual touring, to maintain a high profile is beyond belief. To believe the only way to achieve this is by forsaking everything little thing that comes natural to us - in our day to day movements - is absurd. Of course you need to tigthen your belt when you're in a band but lets be realistic biological insticts usually override metal dreams.

Australian metal is what it is, its healthy for what it is and I dont see things changing much unless the cost of touring is somehow dramatically reduced. So in my case in point, its a good thing when an Australian metal band makes there way to Germany or where ever they go; they fly the Aussie banner proudly!

 

[mattt]

Tim you've done a great job in explaining the similarities in metal around the world.

Its the sheer distance - from state to state AND continent to country that is the largest obstacle, for the exact reasons Tim's stated.

Mattt: Sure some groups are guilty as charged in some areas but issues like having children/spouses doesnt neccessarily hold people back from musical careers. Some may chose to place family as a priority but there are plenty of musicians in touring bands who support families. Perhaps the difference is that its easier to tour - cost effectively - as Tim already pointed out in places like Europe or even the US compared to our homeland. Ys Australian bands could try harder but the slope is pretty steep and physical cost of continual touring, to maintain a high profile is beyond belief.

Relocate. If the distance is a problem than relocate like many Australian bands have. Again, if you are truly serious about music you have to sacrafice and that includes normal family life. I am sure there are plenty of bands that tour and support families but the less that ties you down the better.

To believe the only way to achieve this is by forsaking everything little thing that comes natural to us - in our day to day movements - is absurd. Of course you need to tigthen your belt when you're in a band but lets be realistic biological insticts usually override metal dreams.

It's not absurd at all but I do agree with you that for some people the biological instincts do override dreams but that is what you have to weigh up. What's more important to you?

Australian metal is what it is, its healthy for what it is and I dont see things changing much unless the cost of touring is somehow dramatically reduced. So in my case in point, its a good thing when an Australian metal band makes there way to Germany or where ever they go; they fly the Aussie banner proudly!

 

[Lord Tim]

Relocating isn't the be-all, end-all to fixing it, though. There's no point moving to another country if you haven't got the infrastructure set up to make it worth your while. You can find when you get there that you're starting again from scratch to a degree, and worse you're severely disadvantaged by your new situation (job, location, language, etc.)

If you have nothing to lose, sure - why not, but there's a lot of risks involved. But if you have a lot to lose or you're planning to do things a different way, there's no reason why a band who is based in Australia can't make a good assault internationally.

If you think about it, not too many bands tour constantly all year round anymore. Most of the big tours happen over the summer festival period. Everything else is generally pissy club dates (as I mentioned earlier, someone like Doro can go from playing 200 people clubs for stretches at a time to playing a main spot at a 40,000 strong festival and then go right back to playing small clubs). Sure, that stuff helps you keep yourself in the public eye but it's not enough to justify uprooting your entire life to another country when you can work much smarter and only play the shows that matter.

Getting the right shows, getting the right supports and right contacts is the most important thing in making a difference. If you have a stretch of 20 shows with a bigger band playing larger venues, you're getting more out of it than playing 300 shows in smaller venues with lesser bands or headlining yourself. About the only thing you do gain out of both things are contacts which could possibly lead to bigger shows (and even in that, if you have good connections and good management, you can do that in another country too).

I think to really make a difference overseas we need to work much smarter here in Australia and think globally instead of nationally or even regionally. One my my biggest criticisms of the scene here is some bands think they're pretty good because they pull 200 people to their local haunts. Nice. Now what happens when you play in another city? 20 people. And another country? Forget it. The band may be absolutely brilliant too but they're not going about things the right way to capitalise on their promotion or maximise their exposure out of their immediate area (or in the case of bands that do, out of the country).

I still maintain the scene here is doing well, but if people worked smarter - not even necessarily harder - it would be doing exceptionally well, and globally.

 

[mattt]

[Relocating isn't the be-all, end-all to fixing it, though. There's no point moving to another country if you haven't got the infrastructure set up to make it worth your while. You can find when you get there that you're starting again from scratch to a degree, and worse you're severely disadvantaged by your new situation (job, location, language, etc.)

I completely agree. You have to have something setup/sorted out before hand. But like someone said earlier a lot of labels/promoters etc won't even look at Australian bands because of the logistics behind at all.

If you have nothing to lose, sure - why not, but there's a lot of risks involved. But if you have a lot to lose or you're planning to do things a different way, there's no reason why a band who is based in Australia can't make a good assault internationally.

If you think about it, not too many bands tour constantly all year round anymore. Most of the big tours happen over the summer festival period. Everything else is generally pissy club dates (as I mentioned earlier, someone like Doro can go from playing 200 people clubs for stretches at a time to playing a main spot at a 40,000 strong festival and then go right back to playing small clubs). Sure, that stuff helps you keep yourself in the public eye but it's not enough to justify uprooting your entire life to another country when you can work much smarter and only play the shows that matter.

True, but if you have nothing tying you down there is no reason why you can't relocate or atleast try on temporary basis.

Getting the right shows, getting the right supports and right contacts is the most important thing in making a difference. If you have a stretch of 20 shows with a bigger band playing larger venues, you're getting more out of it than playing 300 shows in smaller venues with lesser bands or headlining yourself. About the only thing you do gain out of both things are contacts which could possibly lead to bigger shows (and even in that, if you have good connections and good management, you can do that in another country too).

I think to really make a difference overseas we need to work much smarter here in Australia and think globally instead of nationally or even regionally. One my my biggest criticisms of the scene here is some bands think they're pretty good because they pull 200 people to their local haunts. Nice. Now what happens when you play in another city? 20 people. And another country? Forget it. The band may be absolutely brilliant too but they're not going about things the right way to capitalise on their promotion or maximise their exposure out of their immediate area (or in the case of bands that do, out of the country).

I still maintain the scene here is doing well, but if people worked smarter - not even necessarily harder - it would be doing exceptionally well, and globally.

Absolutely agree with you, man.