Metal in Europe vs. Metal in the USA

[J. Golden]

The ol' whippin-out-the-collection-like-your-penis-to-prove-a-point trick, huh? Somehow, Purple Rain tarnishes the credibility...especially in such close proximity to Trouble.

Point proven yes. Has nothing to do with penis issues, or are you asking to see my dick, I have no problem with that. But hey I did not make the jackass statement, I'm just showing that my metal taste is pretty various and I would bet more so than most.
As for Prince beside Trouble, well apparently my musical taste in general is more vast than yours, or so that is what you seem to suggest. I like Prince and I like Trouble, you want to question my metal cred do you? Hey I'll be at the fest come see me and we can talk shop. But I warn you you probably will not be able to keep up.
Out side of Progpower one year a guy made a smart ass comment about a shirt I was wearing, did not think I head him. When I said something to him we started talking the metal, in the end he felt pretty fuckin stupid. So hey bring it. HAHA
And no that is not "the collection..."

 

[Stingray11214]

The ol' whippin-out-the-collection-like-your-penis-to-prove-a-point trick, huh? Somehow, Purple Rain tarnishes the credibility...especially in such close proximity to Trouble.

J. Golden's collection is like mine, though mine is not as extensive. I got stuff that is as diverse as from Emperor to Todd Rundgren, from Nightwish to ABBA, from Doro to Connie Francis. I was raised on the Francis, ABBA and Rundgren stuff. The rest came later.

I do not think one can get into progressive or power metal unless you do have, or have been introduced to, different forms of the music genres.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Wow you so have no idea.


you want to see the other 6,000? Give or take a few.

Who said I was talking about you first of all? Second of all, even if I was referring to you in addition to the others on this thread expressing concerns for the "state of metal" in the US, a pissing contest over your CD collection isn't going prove anything otherwise if you SERIOUSLY think that metal isn't big here. For christ sakes, Amon Amarth outsold a Pearl Jam re-release and scored extremely high in the charts a few months back. Or did you conveniently forget that just to make some ridiculous point about "community" in Europe?

As someone who runs a label, it's beyond me that you can even say that, considering how hard it is to sell records over there-- where piracy is even more rampant and severe than it is here. In some countries such as Poland and Italy, sales are so bad that most distros will only put out the absolute top tier sellers in ANY genre. The only territories in Europe in which sales are anything worthwhile are Germany, Austria, Switzerland, UK, Scandinavia, and BeNeLux. America's CD buying and concert-going population likely outweighs the CD and concert-going population in those territories combined. Yeah, fests do well. We don't have fests. Fests are a European thing. I don't see how that has any bearing on the general consensus of metal though. But because you see a band like Hammerfall play to 20,000 people in Germany and not the US, you make the assumption that metal isn't big here. Guess what? These bands aren't FROM HERE, and the fact that I have to explain that to you is jarring to me, since you should know full well that it costs almost $10,000 at MINIMUM for a band like Hammerfall to bring its shit over here with visa and flight costs (and that's assuming no crew), let alone transport costs, lodging, food, etc. Of course European bands aren't super huge here and that only a handful of Euro bands break out. How could you not know this?

Bands like Between The Buried And Me, Lamb Of God, etc etc are the "big" metal bands of the USA, but it's nobody else's fault except for your own that you don't like those bands. Sorry homes, but that's how it is.

 

[J. Golden]

Who said I was talking about you first of all? Second of all, even if I was referring to you in addition to the others on this thread expressing concerns for the "state of metal" in the US, a pissing contest over your CD collection isn't going prove anything otherwise if you SERIOUSLY think that metal isn't big here. For christ sakes, Amon Amarth outsold a Pearl Jam re-release and scored extremely high in the charts a few months back. Or did you conveniently forget that just to make some ridiculous point about "community" in Europe?

As someone who runs a label, it's beyond me that you can even say that, considering how hard it is to sell records over there-- where piracy is even more rampant and severe than it is here. In some countries such as Poland and Italy, sales are so bad that most distros will only put out the absolute top tier sellers in ANY genre. The only territories in Europe in which sales are anything worthwhile are Germany, Austria, Switzerland, UK, Scandinavia, and BeNeLux. America's CD buying and concert-going population likely outweighs the CD and concert-going population in those territories combined. Yeah, fests do well. We don't have fests. Fests are a European thing. I don't see how that has any bearing on the general consensus of metal though. But because you see a band like Hammerfall play to 20,000 people in Germany and not the US, you make the assumption that metal isn't big here. Guess what? These bands aren't FROM HERE, and the fact that I have to explain that to you is jarring to me, since you should know full well that it costs almost $10,000 at MINIMUM for a band like Hammerfall to bring its shit over here with visa and flight costs (and that's assuming no crew), let alone transport costs, lodging, food, etc. Of course European bands aren't super huge here and that only a handful of Euro bands break out. How could you not know this?

Bands like Between The Buried And Me, Lamb Of God, etc etc are the "big" metal bands of the USA, but it's nobody else's fault except for your own that you don't like those bands. Sorry homes, but that's how it is.

Wow you put a lot of words in my mouth and assume a lot.
First of all I don't believe I ever said that I don't like BTBM.
Secondly I have never assumed that a band does well or has a draw simply because they play in front of a lot of people in Europe. To the contrary I debate that with many people and promoters who think since they might have seen a band at Progpower the band would have a draw outside of that arena. And I know full well that you cannot Cage (sorry on my mind) gage a band on a festival appearance. I find it funny when some thinks that and band is huge because they were on a festival.
As far as Europe not buying metal or U.S. release I don't know where you get your figures but that is pretty much the only place I sell to, well everywhere outside of the U.S.
As for your statement about Amon Amarth that doesn't mean a damn thing to me and the larger metal world. The kids who are buying Amon Amarth are not buying my releases, Shadow Kingdom, Nightmare, Pure Steel, Stormspell, the list goes on. Granted I I'm speaking for these labels and perhaps they are selling in Best Buy along side of Amon Amarth but for some reason I doubt it. And those same kids probably never will buy releases from these labels. Well not a large enough percentage to really show a difference. They are the same kids that come out to that Amon Amarth show or whatever is hip that week and walk right past all the other fliers on the wall not giving them a second, even a first thought. We have great bands up here but do those kids care? No they don't until they are told to.
My old website designer works for Revolver now designing their site and occasionally writing for them and something he said was perfectly true; "it is two different worlds man". And it is. He was reffering to just a discussion.
And before it is brought up that I'm questioning labels sells or who they reach that is not what I'm doing at all, I'm simply saying it does not compare. To compare the world of metal to such mainstream as AA is like comparing apples and oranges, well they are both f23kin fruits I guess.
And by the way I can give you references to bands and labels who sell pretty much only to Europe. And within the first year of its release Hellrazor nearly sold out and most of the sales were Europe so you might wanna check your facts.
Man I know other labels, promoters etc know exactly what I getting at. Every night as I set here working I talk to label heads both U.S. and across the pond and it is pretty much the same thing.

By they way I think I pointed out it was not a penis issue or a pissing contest. But since the statement was made about people "bitching" about the state of metal in the U.S. and I'm the only person who is not saying it's great, well it sounds like you are referring to me. And I just wanted to show that no my metal is not limited to 50 bands, unless those 50 put out a lot of albums. Now did I really need to explain that? (rhetorical)

 

[AeonicSlumber]

First of all I don't believe I ever said that I don't like BTBM.

Apologies, but I didn't mean to make that assumption, but I intended to be hypothetical. As in, IF you don't like the band. Sorry there!

Secondly I have never assumed that a band does well or has a draw simply because they play in front of a lot of people in Europe.

Okay....... and I never said you did.

To the contrary I debate that with many people and promoters who think since they might have seen a band at Progpower the band would have a draw outside of that arena. And I know full well that you cannot Cage (sorry on my mind) gage a band on a festival appearance. I find it funny when some thinks that and band is huge because they were on a festival.
As far as Europe not buying metal or U.S. release I don't know where you get your figures but that is pretty much the only place I sell to, well everywhere outside of the U.S.

I don't want to sound like a dick, but this entire paragraph is completely illegible. Are you posting from a phone perhaps?

As for your statement about Amon Amarth that doesn't mean a damn thing to me and the larger metal world. The kids who are buying Amon Amarth are not buying my releases, Shadow Kingdom, Nightmare, Pure Steel, Stormspell, the list goes on. Granted I I'm speaking for these labels and perhaps they are selling in Best Buy along side of Amon Amarth but for some reason I doubt it. And those same kids probably never will buy releases from these labels. Well not a large enough percentage to really show a difference. They are the same kids that come out to that Amon Amarth show or whatever is hip that week and walk right past all the other fliers on the wall not giving them a second, even a first thought. We have great bands up here but do those kids care? No they don't until they are told to.

So let me get this straight from you. The stuff that people do not buy is the "larger metal world?" How does that even make sense WHATSOEVER dude? This entire paragraph sums up my argument. The fact that you even think these labels represent the "larger metal world" when they aren't selling by your own admission is just laughable on SO many levels. I'm not out to diss your business, or anyone else's, and I have nothing but the utmost respect for anyone with the balls run a label in these troubled times. It's like opening a flammable products store in between two firearms and explosives stores.


However you're doing nothing but backing up my point. The labels you're referring to are niche labels with no large or high-charting acts. There's NOTHING wrong with that, but to say metal as a whole isn't doing well because your secluded little niche isn't huge is ignorant and borderline arrogant. Who cares if the kids who buy Amon Amarth don't buy your releases? They're still buying METAL, just not YOUR metal. If you have a problem with that, it's your own fault. Sign more bands that would appeal to kids and adjust your business model if it's such a big deal. Otherwise, don't complain.

And before it is brought up that I'm questioning labels sells or who they reach that is not what I'm doing at all, I'm simply saying it does not compare. To compare the world of metal to such mainstream as AA is like comparing apples and oranges, well they are both f23kin fruits I guess.
And by the way I can give you references to bands and labels who sell pretty much only to Europe. And within the first year of its release Hellrazor nearly sold out and most of the sales were Europe so you might wanna check your facts.
Man I know other labels, promoters etc know exactly what I getting at. Every night as I set here working I talk to label heads both U.S. and across the pond and it is pretty much the same thing.

This is seriously getting stupid on your end. Amon Amarth isn't metal? The whole argument in the OP is based the perception that Amon Amarth (SPECIFICALLY REFERRED TO IN THE IMAGE) is huge in Europe while scene-ish bands are huge in the US, but in reality, AA is doing pretty well for themselves over here too. So either you're contradicting the argument you're supposed to be defending, or you're just coming on here derailing the thread with a completely irrelevant and separate point because either you didn't read the thread or you're just looking for a soapbox to cry on. Either way you're digging a deeper hole for yourself bro.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore on this. If you're on a phone, how about saving the big posts for when you get to a computer man? If you're on a computer, dude... ...it's the 21st century.

 

[J. Golden]

Apologies, but I didn't mean to make that assumption, but I intended to be hypothetical. As in, IF you don't like the band. Sorry there!




Okay....... and I never said you did.



I don't want to sound like a dick, but this entire paragraph is completely illegible. Are you posting from a phone perhaps?




So let me get this straight from you. The stuff that people do not buy is the "larger metal world?" How does that even make sense WHATSOEVER dude? This entire paragraph sums up my argument. The fact that you even think these labels represent the "larger metal world" when they aren't selling by your own admission is just laughable on SO many levels. I'm not out to diss your business, or anyone else's, and I have nothing but the utmost respect for anyone with the balls run a label in these troubled times. It's like opening a flammable products store in between two firearms and explosives stores.


However you're doing nothing but backing up my point. The labels you're referring to are niche labels with no large or high-charting acts. There's NOTHING wrong with that, but to say metal as a whole isn't doing well because your secluded little niche isn't huge is ignorant and borderline arrogant. Who cares if the kids who buy Amon Amarth don't buy your releases? They're still buying METAL, just not YOUR metal. If you have a problem with that, it's your own fault. Sign more bands that would appeal to kids and adjust your business model if it's such a big deal. Otherwise, don't complain.




This is seriously getting stupid on your end. Amon Amarth isn't metal? The whole argument in the OP is based the perception that Amon Amarth (SPECIFICALLY REFERRED TO IN THE IMAGE) is huge in Europe while scene-ish bands are huge in the US, but in reality, AA is doing pretty well for themselves over here too. So either you're contradicting the argument you're supposed to be defending, or you're just coming on here derailing the thread with a completely irrelevant and separate point because either you didn't read the thread or you're just looking for a soapbox to cry on. Either way you're digging a deeper hole for yourself bro.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore on this. If you're on a phone, how about saving the big posts for when you get to a computer man? If you're on a computer, dude... ...it's the 21st century.

Actually I have no issue with Amon Amarth or do I care about that market. If it did not come out correctly I was pointing out that the audience that band pulls (most of it) is a mainstream market that cannot be used to back up the argument that metal is big here simply due to that one band's commercial appeal. Their audience here in the U,S, is by far different than the mass European metal audience. And even if it would be argued that AA is also huge in Europe well along with the rest of what Europe accepts that America doesn't would prove that metal is stronger there.
Goddamn Europe has more metal labels, metal tours, metal fests, metal magazines, if it was not stronger there then it would all have turnout like fests and tours here, magazines would go the way of Metal Maniacs, etc. Goddamn it is so easy to see if you get out there in it. But maybe you are that guy who goes to the AA show, looks over that band you never heard of until you are told it is ok to like them.
I did not start this with you, you brought it to me and now I'm done with it.

There are those who will mistake honesty as arrogance.

in reference to this arguement; "in what land does he think he lives in?" Matt Coe

 

[Prog_Please]

This thread is so opinionated. I think metal is doing fine in the USA. If a band isn't popular or doesn't take root after opening for a larger band, maybe its just because they aren't that great. There have been many bands thrown around after getting decent praise as an opening act, but haven't been able to sell tickets on their own. But there are also bands (maybe not as many, but lets be honest, not everyone can be a rockstar) that have opened and then done well on their own. I think ISIS is a great example. They opened for Tool, were well received, and packed out smaller venue shows ever since (or at least all over California). And they didn't even have the luxury of a large label backing them up.

So I really think its simply that many bands just don't write appealing music. You (not directed at anyone in person) may like a band and think they're hot shit, but the general population in America doesn't. Does that mean Americans suck? No, it just means we have different tastes.

p.s. Probably a bad analogy, but am I justified in saying European sports fans suck because they prefer a shitty sport like Soccer over Football ["Americano"]? I guess you'd have to compare sports to music, not sports to metal for the analogy to be meaningful, but still...

 

[J. Golden]

p.s. Probably a bad analogy, but am I justified in saying European sports fans suck because they prefer a shitty sport like Soccer over Football ["Americano"]? I guess you'd have to compare sports to music, not sports to metal for the analogy to be meaningful, but still...

I thought they did play "football" HAHA

 

[dcowboys311]

Actually I have no issue with Amon Amarth or do I care about that market. If it did not come out correctly I was pointing out that the audience that band pulls (most of it) is a mainstream market that cannot be used to back up the argument that metal is big here simply due to that one band's commercial appeal. Their audience here in the U,S, is by far different than the mass European metal audience. And even if it would be argued that AA is also huge in Europe well along with the rest of what Europe accepts that America doesn't would prove that metal is stronger there.
Goddamn Europe has more metal labels, metal tours, metal fests, metal magazines, if it was not stronger there then it would all have turnout like fests and tours here, magazines would go the way of Metal Maniacs, etc. Goddamn it is so easy to see if you get out there in it. But maybe you are that guy who goes to the AA show, looks over that band you never heard of until you are told it is ok to like them.
I did not start this with you, you brought it to me and now I'm done with it.

There are those who will mistake honesty as arrogance.

in reference to this arguement; "in what land does he think he lives in?" Matt Coe

Metal being 'stronger' in Europe does not mean it's bad by default in the US. Europe is not one country. There are lots of European countries that the US beats in 'metal support'. Is Germany stronger than the US? Probably. Is Norway? Probably. Is Europe as a whole? Completely debatable.

Europe has twice the population as the US, so yes, they have more fests. For all genres of music. Metal magazines are not the only magazines going out of print. This has nothing to do with Europe vs US but instead internet vs print. Has nothing to do with metal or music for that matter. For the most part, European countries have higher population density, so yeah, they might have more people at shows. But look at the average European tour vs US tour. Which has more dates. Which goes to more places?

It's gone from metal being bad in the US to metal being better in Europe. They're not the same thing!

 

[AngraRULES]

p.s. Probably a bad analogy, but am I justified in saying European sports fans suck because they prefer a shitty sport like Soccer over Football ["Americano"]? I guess you'd have to compare sports to music, not sports to metal for the analogy to be meaningful, but still...

Don't even get me started with the whole American notion that Football is better. There's more to the world than American Football and hot dogs. The day football achieves half of the worldwide status and importance soccer has, we'll talk. It was a bad analogy after all.

 

[ashaman7122]

But since the statement was made about people "bitching" about the state of metal in the U.S. and I'm the only person who is not saying it's great, well it sounds like you are referring to me.

Actually, in post #15, you were the one that first referred to people either bitching on forums or posting little cartoons...so...you're the one that made that statement. The thread was fairly innocuous until that point.

I was just bitching about your bitching about the bitching that wasn't actually happening in the thread until you came along. Then AS jumped in the mix and the whole thread goes haywire.

Quite a crazy little sandbox we've got here, huh?

 

[Claus / Intromental]

First of all - am I the only one who got scared when Jeremy asked if we wanted to see his penis?




Second of all - as someone who has been working in the metal business for many many years (20 years by now - 15 of those having my own metal management & booking company) in both Europe and the US, I can honestly say that the cartoon couldn't be more wrong. Sorry to bust your bubble those of you that believe metal is "big" in Europe - it's not.
It's just as difficult selling CDs there, it's just as difficult getting shows there, and it's just as difficult making a living by playing/selling heavy metal there as it is over here in the US.

I saw someone complaining about two underground metal bands only pulling 40 people in at the Chicago shows - guess what, ProgPower bands (even the bigger ones) can risk playing for 40 ppl or less around Europe. Case in point: Steel Prophet, Angel Dust and one more (I think it was either Brainstorm or Gamma Ray) had a disastrous European tour 7-8 years ago with 60 ppl average ... I'm not pretending Manticora is big in any way - but just to prove my point, on their last EU tour there were some of the shows with 15 ppl !!!

Seriously, I'm sick and tired of this mentality ppl here in the US have about "oh my god, it's so unfair how things are much better in Europe for the metal scene". Well, guess what - it's NOT!!!! We're still being underpaid by the venues over there, we're still struggling to get media attention, we're still having a hard time selling CDs and so on ...

But - and this is the main point, which Milton perfectly said earlier in this thread - if you want it changed, go and do something about it instead of sitting on your ass and complain.

c.

 

[DuchessOfDork]

First of all - am I the only one who got scared when Jeremy asked if we wanted to see his penis?

No. Online requests for penises continue to frighten me, to this day.

 

[MartinW]

Metal being 'stronger' in Europe does not mean it's bad by default in the US. Europe is not one country. There are lots of European countries that the US beats in 'metal support'. Is Germany stronger than the US? Probably. Is Norway? Probably. Is Europe as a whole? Completely debatable.

This. Europe is not a cultural entity. Not even close. If you think there are big differences between American states, it's still nothing compared to European countries. We're not all Finland.

 

[DuchessOfDork]

We're not all Finland.

Or France. >_>

 

[Prog_Please]

Don't even get me started with the whole American notion that Football is better. There's more to the world than American Football and hot dogs. The day football achieves half of the worldwide status and importance soccer has, we'll talk. It was a bad analogy after all.

Sounds like you're saying its better because its more popular...

I know a lot of bands that have more "worldwide status" and "importance" than the ISIS's of the metal community, but does that make them better? This argument has come up over and over again, so I'd say your claim is bad afterall

p.s. I think the hot dog thing isn't a football thing as much as a general sports thing in the USA. I mean, its just as common (if not more common) to see a dude eating a hot dog at a baseball game.

p.s.s. At least American Football isn't fixed

 

[DuchessOfDork]

p.s.s. At least American Football isn't fixed

You're joking, right?

Lets not argue between American Football and.. Football, anymore though. My 1st generation American heart can't take it. I love you, America, but my blood is still Spanish and I love our teams, too. Can't we all get along!?

 

[AngraRULES]

Sounds like you're saying its better because its more popular...

No, soccer is just better, period.

I know a lot of bands that have more "worldwide status" and "importance" than the ISIS's of the metal community, but does that make them better? This argument has come up over and over again, so I'd say your claim is bad afterall

HEY HEY HEY if you can make a bad analogy, I can make a bad claim.

p.s. I think the hot dog thing isn't a football thing as much as a general sports thing in the USA. I mean, its just as common (if not more common) to see a dude eating a hot dog at a baseball game.

You're lucky. If only you knew some of the shit that flies all over soccer stands and you risk being hit in the face with... As bad as it sounds, having a hot dog hit you on the face could be the best case scenario!

p.s.s. At least American Football isn't fixed

GOD DAMN ITALIANS! In a way, it's the NON-PERFECTION of soccer that makes people so passionate about it. There's a risk the ref will fuck up. There's a risk the call will be bad. There's a risk the game is fixed. I think America's culture will never be able to fully embrace the "impurity" that's present in worldwide soccer... but hey, I still have hopes!

Look at me... you'd think I'm from Chicago. LOL Back to topic...

 

[ApolloFC]

 

[Prog_Please]

You're lucky. If only you knew some of the shit that flies all over soccer stands and you risk being hit in the face with... As bad as it sounds, having a hot dog hit you on the face could be the best case scenario!

Soccer fans are pretty crazy, I give you that. Its actually the one reason I went to our college's soccer games. I got hit with a fucking tortilla once, which didn't hurt, but was more of a "wtf who throws a tortilla?!" moment. But again, I'm also from the Bay Area and Raiders fans are pretty nuts too. Nothing like sitting next to Darth Vader.

You're joking, right?

About what? You actually think soccer isn't plagued with corruption?