Mic'd Cab Always sounds terrible

MetalWorks

MetalWorks

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Apr 19, 2007
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Sacramento, CA
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This is an awesome forum that has given me alot of good ideas.

But I have tryed so many ways to get a good mic'd cab sound and it always sucks compared to recording my Pod Pro direct.

I have tryed several mics from SM57, Beta 57, Audix i5, and even throwing in an AT4060 from a few feet back. Using various Marshall and Mesa cabs with GT12's, Vintage 30's, Krank Heads, Peavey Heads, Marshall heads, great guitars and pickups.

I started by just sticking a mic 1 inch from the grill in front any speaker in my 4x12 cab.

Got random results from Extremely poor to semi-ok for a demo.

Read posts that said stick the mic right in front of the cone.

Ended up with Super Sizzle. o_O

Read posts saying stick it to the outside of the cone and angle it toward the center of the cone.

Ended up better but still overtoned with sizzle.

Tryed backing up to 3 inches, and changing volumes, nothing better.

Have tryed listening through headphones as best as possible and moving the mic around to find the right sound.

Still ends up sounding hollow and fuzzy.

I even tryed reading the manufactures data sheets for the i5 for example, said to stick it strait at the speaker between the cone and the outside edge of the speaker.

Nothing sounded any different.

Then I read a thread on this forum about a technique popularly used on recording In Flames and Soilworks guitars using 2 SM57's on/off axis.

I can see how it somewhat cancled some unwanted sizzle but didnt find anything pleasing about it, just sounded like hollow on hollow. I checked the phase and it was fine.

With all of these methods I have tryed EQing to get rid of the bad frequencys, still dont have a good guitar sound like I hear on other samples posted using such teqniques.

So I am at a dead end again.

I basically recorded a band this weekend using Pod Pro Direct and also recorded the Unprocessed Guitar out so I could experiment with Reamping.

I figure Reamping will help me experiment with micing cabs since I dont have to play guitar, adjust mic positions etc at the same time.

As far as over all details, heres my setup:

Recording in bedroom, built a phone booth style vocal booth constructed of 2x4 and sheetrock, lined with thick carpet inside, Approximately 4 feet wide by 5 feet deep and 7 feet tall. Use this for guitar cabs also.

Mics used are SM57, Beta 57, Audix i5.

Guitars: ESP SC500 with EMG81's, ESP EX400 with EMG81's, others
Amps: Peavey Triple XXX, Madison Divinity, Ampeg VL-1002, Line 6 Flextone II HD.

Cabs: Marshall Slanted 1960A 4x12 with Celestion GT12's, Marshall 1960B Straight 4x12 with Vintage 30's, Madison Straight and Slanted 4x12 cabs with Madison Symphony Speakers.

Recording into:

Mackie 32.8 Analog Mixer, Grace Design Model 101 Preamp, Nuendo/RME 96k AD/DA Converters, Nuendo/RME 9652 Audio card, Mac G4 running Nuendo 2.2,
Mackie HR824 Monitors, AKG K55 Headphones. Other Misc. gear.

Any advice anyone can offer.:cry:

I will see if I can record some guitar clips later tonight.

Thanks.
 
First thing that comes to mind: might be the sound coming out of the amp that isn't that great. You didn't post your amps' settings, maybe you're pushing the gain too much, or the eq on the amp is too scooped. First thing I learnt about micing guitar cabs: if it sounds bad through the amp, then it will sound bad through your speakers, no matter how much you tweak it.
 
Here is an older sample that isn't as bad as some others I would like to post.

But it still has a live sound or something to it. Dont know if that is the room effect to it or what. Maybe some experienced ears can shed some light.

I think it was mic'd with an i5 on a GT12 Marshall 1960A. The guy was using a boss floor board which I ran into the return of a 100 Watt EL34 Madison Divinty Head.

http://www.forktung.com/media/audio/GuitarL_138.mp3

I really want to post some recent samples where I am basically trying to follow steps that are supposed to produce good results but ending up fuzzy.

As far as gain was mentioned or amp sound, heres a typical setting I might use on the Peavey Triple XXX.


Ultra Channel
Master 3-4 o'clock, Hair 3 o'clock, Body 11 o'clock, Bottom 2-3 o'clock, Volume 10 o'clock depending on how loud I go, Presense switch on back on Middle.

I have heard 2 stories regarding gain.

1. The group that says, turn the gain down, just get enough edge to the sound and double the guitars....

2. The group that says you should be able to dial in someone's "Personal Sound" and capture it according to correct volume and mic placement.

I can see where the idea of less gain helps with clearing things up, but is losing gain the solution?

All I know is I have zero issues with gain on the Pod Pro direct.

Are we at a loss with Gain when micing?

I'd like to hear what Andy and other accomplished recording engineers have to say regarding gain.

I have been leaning toward gain not being so much an issue and more to the effect of mic placement.

I am also tracking with guitars peaking around -6dB on my Analog Mackie, if that helps at all.

I think I just need to put 32 mics on one cab and hit record and find the one that sounds good cuz this is one of the most frustrating aspects of recording for me right now.

; )
 
It's always kinda tough to judge these out of context, but you definitely need to attack this one at the source. I think you can dial in a better tone than that just on the amp head. The highs are damn unbearable. I'd definitely roll off some gain too.

A couple questions:

-Is the cabinet inside your booth on these clips?
-Is the mic pointed dead-center on the cone in this clip
-What are you monitoring on?
-Where is the amps volume knob?

Try recording the the mic'd cabinet outside of the booth with a couple big blankets thrown over the top. Also, if you are aimed dead-center at the cone, try slowly moving it out away from the cone (towards the outer edge) little by little. I'm sure this tone could work with the right bass gtr behind it, but it is a bit harsh. As a last resort, I'd low pass it. Sounds like the "right" frequencies are in there somewhere between the fuzz so you can probably improve this a lot with a parametric EQ. Good luck.
 
Judging from the clip you posted I'd say the player has alot to do with that particularly sound. He's not very tight at all.
Like everyone else said. Try dialing in a better tone from your amp, cut down on the gain and experiment some more with mic placement.
You'll get there eventually!
 
MetalWorks said:
I am interested in any opinion!

Especially those that have captured the sounds that we all seek.
Click to expand...

In that case, my opinion is that it's amazing you haven't been able to come up with better sound with all the effort you say you have put in it. It sounds dark and distant but that could be because of a lot of things.

You sure you've covered all the basics, like fresh strings and tubes?

It has to be the room at least a little. Man, I don't get how you could be struggling that bad with it.
 
dontletmedrown said:
It's always kinda tough to judge these out of context, but you definitely need to attack this one at the source. I think you can dial in a better tone than that just on the amp head. The highs are damn unbearable. I'd definitely roll off some gain too.

A couple questions:

-Is the cabinet inside your booth on these clips?
-Is the mic pointed dead-center on the cone in this clip
-What are you monitoring on?
-Where is the amps volume knob?

Try recording the the mic'd cabinet outside of the booth with a couple big blankets thrown over the top. Also, if you are aimed dead-center at the cone, try slowly moving it out away from the cone (towards the outer edge) little by little. I'm sure this tone could work with the right bass gtr behind it, but it is a bit harsh. As a last resort, I'd low pass it. Sounds like the "right" frequencies are in there somewhere between the fuzz so you can probably improve this a lot with a parametric EQ. Good luck.
Click to expand...

As far as I can recall, the Cab was outside the booth with the back close to the wall.

I am pretty sure I had the i5 pointing strait at the speaker near the center cone but not at the hottest point.

I cant say whether the highs or gain were turned up alot because he had a Boss Floorboard with presets and my Madison head pretty much just controlled the volume.

The volume was probably lower than what you would use to play with a drummer, but louder than practice in a bedroom.

I just turn up the volume to get the nice weight or fullness without getting overbearing by any means.

I am monitoring on AKG K55 Headphones and Mackie HR824 Monitors.

Sometimes its difficult to listen through headphones and position the mic on the cab because your standing right next to the cab.

I have heard others say thats a good time to have a friend move the mic for you and you tell them to stop when you think you have found a good spot to try recording.

But I havent really tried to get anyone to come over and do that for me.

Figure at some point I should be able to do that all my self.

But perhaps its not such a bad idea as long as I know I am not having other issues besides mic technique.

A lot of people throw out advice from Gain and EQ settings to mic placement and such.

Theres alot of opinions out there that work to varying degrees.

We try these things and maybe it improves 10% but your still only at 70% of your goal.

I'd love to see a thread where someone who has successfully recorded guitar tracks posts samples of the great sounding guitar, then samples of what happens to the great tone when the gain is increased, or the highs are turned up, or the volume is too high or any other common mistakes leading to the headaches that we might relate to.

Usually I just run into people that get to a point where they just say dude you need to read up on basics, go get some books on recording or take a class.

Well I have bought many different books, enrolled in a studio recording techniques class, but I might never get to learn from anything dealing with Heavily Distorted guitars.

If there was a book at Amazon.com called Andy Sneaps Ultimate Guide to Recording Heavy Metal, I would buy it in a heartbeat! :headbang: Any chances on that Andy? :saint:

Everybody here seems very cool and I have heard alot of great products from the samples posted.

So I look forward to hearing some feedback.
 
MetalWorks said:
As far as I can recall, the Cab was outside the booth with the back close to the wall.

I am pretty sure I had the i5 pointing strait at the speaker near the center cone but not at the hottest point.

I cant say whether the highs or gain were turned up alot because he had a Boss Floorboard with presets and my Madison head pretty much just controlled the volume.

The volume was probably lower than what you would use to play with a drummer, but louder than practice in a bedroom.

I just turn up the volume to get the nice weight or fullness without getting overbearing by any means.

I am monitoring on AKG K55 Headphones and Mackie HR824 Monitors.

Sometimes its difficult to listen through headphones and position the mic on the cab because your standing right next to the cab.

I have heard others say thats a good time to have a friend move the mic for you and you tell them to stop when you think you have found a good spot to try recording.

But I havent really tried to get anyone to come over and do that for me.

Figure at some point I should be able to do that all my self.

But perhaps its not such a bad idea as long as I know I am not having other issues besides mic technique.

A lot of people throw out advice from Gain and EQ settings to mic placement and such.

Theres alot of opinions out there that work to varying degrees.

We try these things and maybe it improves 10% but your still only at 70% of your goal.

I'd love to see a thread where someone who has successfully recorded guitar tracks posts samples of the great sounding guitar, then samples of what happens to the great tone when the gain is increased, or the highs are turned up, or the volume is too high or any other common mistakes leading to the headaches that we might relate to.

Usually I just run into people that get to a point where they just say dude you need to read up on basics, go get some books on recording or take a class.

Well I have bought many different books, enrolled in a studio recording techniques class, but I might never get to learn from anything dealing with Heavily Distorted guitars.

If there was a book at Amazon.com called Andy Sneaps Ultimate Guide to Recording Heavy Metal, I would buy it in a heartbeat! :headbang: Any chances on that Andy? :saint:

Everybody here seems very cool and I have heard alot of great products from the samples posted.

So I look forward to hearing some feedback.
Click to expand...

I notice you said you had the guitar cabinet close to the wall. I've never done this myself. I always place the cabinet in the center of the room, mic it up till I'm happy with it, then cover it with some blankets to stop reflections from getting in the mic. It sounds like you would improve your tone a lot if you increased your guitar amp volume. There is a website called "Slipperman's guide to killer guitar tones" that has tons of great info, but one of the things it stresses a lot is to make sure that your speakers are "excursing" (visually moving and shoving air into the mic).

Here is the link to that page:

http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html

It's kinda tough to read, but my recordings have improved so much since I read this.
 
The Broodwich said:
yeah those boss effects boards dont work for creating all of the tone. big no no.
Click to expand...

+1

Just put a good OD pedal in front of it.
And maybe try with the Crunch channel instead of the Ultra, I seem to recall that Andy too usually tracks rhythm guitars on crunch channels instead of lead ones.
 
I'll go with most of this - too much gain, not enough mid, he doesn't seem to be a very tight player, the floorboard isn't something you want to run through unless you have a godly setup with it, and you do need to spend a lot of time playing with mic placement. I'd say that with a Divinity and mics that don't suck, you should be getting 80-90% of what you want straight into the DAW, and if EQ and such change the sound as much as you'd need to make that sound good then your source is just not done well.

In the Clayman thread the clips you hear aren't a day's work - the people who have posted things spent great amounts of time to get things that way. If I recall correctly, at least one person other than myself (Oz?) spent the better part of a year playing with that stuff to see what went where, and I've been toying with that setup for several hours at a time a few times a week to try and get things right. One millimeter of movement can mean a whole world of difference - I put an i5 on one speaker, a 57 on the other, shoved fairly close to the grill and aimed pretty much at where the cone meets the dustcap, and then tweak the two accordingly until when combined they give a lot of meat and not a lot of hiss. It has taken me months to get the mics in the ballpark of where I want them, and I still find that I want to shift one track a tiny bit relative to the other because they could be a little better.

Spend a day, at minimum, just sitting there next to the cab and recording different parts of the speaker. You really need to get a good sense of what sounds come from there if all you can go by is stuff you've read as suggestions on a forum, and the only way to go about doing that is to just record and listen to as much as you can.

Jeff
 
i don't think that tone is that bad, but i can hear some weird room resonance. Your setup should yield some quality sounds. Just simplify, less is more. I think the room will make he biggest difference.
 
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