Miced Amp sounds always too mid focused and thin

[Red Phoenix]

Hey,
the last week i struggled with micing my amp and no matter how i place an SM57 or e906 the sound is always too mid focused and feels kinda thin. It's lacking bass/oomph and highs/bite. From a SM57 placed dead center i expect something way bassier and with a lot of highs than i get.
I record a short sample to show what i mean.
It's recorded through a 5150 into a Mesa V30 miced with a SM57 placed dead center.
Ampsetting was Low 6, Mid 2, Hi 5.5, PostGain 2, Resonance 7, Presence 8. Playing with the Ampsetting doesn't fix it for me as well the mic position doesn't. Am i missing something? Or is it necessary to set the amp way louder? I thought Postgain on 2 is common for recording..
I tried also different speaker and another cab. Just the same..always sounds like a telephone.
Probably i fail at micing

 

[lanky noob]

Try rolling the lows off the amp and move the mic further from the centre, and crank the amp as much as you can

I can't listen to the clip, and I have no real experience with the 5150 recording wise, but I find my blackstar is really midrangey with no bite and a saggy ass bottom end until it gets cranked half way, at which point is absolutely slays. As for the mic position stuff I said, i'm just going on what i've learned, like I said, can't listen right now, will later though

 

[arvoitus]

What are you using to re-amp?

I think your sample doesn't sound that bad ... you can always try adding a (VST) tubescreamer, it won't hurt the sound.

Luckily this forum is full of 5150 + Mesa V30 + SM57 samples so you can compare your own sample with someone else.
And try this: http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/f-o-h/856385-pink-noise-position-mic-2013-a.html
It also has a sample from a 6505 with a Marshall V30 cab through a SM57.

 

[Mago]

Hm, I don't think that the clip sounds "wrong", but if I mic up my pretty similar setup with pretty similar settings (6505+ beeing the only difference) dead center, then it sounds a lot different for me, which is a bit strange...Mesa V30 2x12 or 4x12? For some reason I expect a MesaOS if not noted otherwise haha

I mean, it's the same characterwise, with too many highs obviously, but it's a different too much highs...dunno.

So I don't really know what your issue is with the tone, I think it sounds like it sounds when you mic it dead center

 

[bryan_kilco]

I think your clip has too much low/low mids, for my tastes, anyhow. It sounds a bit dark.

Where abouts are you placing the mic?

 

[bryan_kilco]

Hm, I don't think that the clip sounds "wrong", but if I mic up my pretty similar setup with pretty similar settings (6505+ beeing the only difference) dead center, then it sounds a lot different for me, which is a bit strange...Mesa V30 2x12 or 4x12? For some reason I expect a MesaOS if not noted otherwise haha

I mean, it's the same characterwise, with too many highs obviously, but it's a different too much highs...dunno.

So I don't really know what your issue is with the tone, I think it sounds like it sounds when you mic it dead center

When you say "dead center", you dont mean center of the dust cap, do you? I'd assume not. Anytime I've tried that, the sound was SUPER brittle and trebely. I'm guessing you mean center where the dust cap means the cone. That's is my go-to spot and usually sounds brighter than your clip.

 

[Red Phoenix]

Rolling off lows at the amp just leads to..less bass and moving the mic to the site i only get different mid character. When i go 1 inch away from the grill cloth it gets thinner and thinner. The sample was right at the grill cloth by the way.
And yes it dosen't sound that bad when you listen to it for a while. But thats the point. I know a lot of records from here with 5150+Mesa+57 and when i compare them side by side mine sounds like it has no bass and highs.

Mago, your EVH50W Testfiles for example. "6505+LEAD-Mesa4x12OS-57" sounds totally balanced. I cant get even close to it. Or the stuff mickrich posts. Or anybody else. They all have the same overall character/frequency response. Normally i place the mic at the edge of the dustcap but that sounds dull, muddy..and thin But for comparison dead center is the easiest way.
Oh, yes it's a 4x12 Cab but non Oversized

I use a redeye for reamping.thats not the problem..and a TS is also in the chain normally, but it makes it even thinner and more mid focused.

@bryan_kilco
with dead center i mean totally in the center of the dustcap and the mic is touching the grill cloth. and thats what makes me sceptical about my record..which is also not postprocessed.

 

[bryan_kilco]

Well, from my experience with a cranked 5150, Mesa OS cab and single SM57, the center of the dustcap was horrible. There may be something wrong with your amp?

Listening to your clip again, I guess it doesn't really sound "dark" but just sort of too much low mid buildup and a bit of fizz or sizzle in the high end.

But like I said - when I placed a 57 directly center of the dust cap, it was EXTREMELY bright and paper thin. Your's is almost the opposite.

Plus - moving the mic away from the cab should give you more bass, not less, correct? Maybe it's your room?

 

[colonel_claypoo]

I use a redeye for reamping.thats not the problem.

It might be the problem. I have the redeye 3D and I could not achieve a satisfying reamp yet. It sounds similar to your problem in that I could never get the body and thump I wanted (from an engl fireball with engl os cab).

have you tried recording a live guitar signal to compare?

 

[Red Phoenix]

Moving the mic away from the cab decreases the bass Moving it more to the edge of the cap or to the cone gives you more bass. But then its totally muddy without any highs. I could increase the Presence to 10 but that sounds like shit
I also thought of the room but playing around with acoustic foam didn't help. Changing the whole room is a bit difficult. i could try it but then i can't crank the amp. Maybe something acts like a low and highpass..
can tubes drastically change their frequency response? the tubes got replaced for some time but the amp is played daily and i never miced it till now. But last time i changed tubes there wasn't a big difference.

when i play an esp horizon straight into the amp it sounds the same as reamped through the redeye.

 

[Mago]

When you say "dead center", you dont mean center of the dust cap, do you? I'd assume not. Anytime I've tried that, the sound was SUPER brittle and trebely. I'm guessing you mean center where the dust cap means the cone. That's is my go-to spot and usually sounds brighter than your clip.

I dunno why you quted me there, but I meant dead center as dead center of the speaker. Like Red Phoenix posted in the OP!
I've never used a position like that for final reamps, but I use it to make speaker comparisions, cause it's the easiest way to get the placement the same on each speaker. Also easy to judge which speaker has the least nastyness that way, for me at least.

Listening to your clip again, I guess it doesn't really sound "dark" but just sort of too much low mid buildup and a bit of fizz or sizzle in the high end.

But like I said - when I placed a 57 directly center of the dust cap, it was EXTREMELY bright and paper thin. Your's is almost the opposite.

Plus - moving the mic away from the cab should give you more bass, not less, correct? Maybe it's your room?

I wouldn't say his clip sounds dark at all, but I also think it sounds "too good" for straight in the middle of the speaker.

Why should moving the mic away give more bass?
SM57 isn't Omni, so it has a proximity effect -> more bass closer to the source.

Mago, your EVH50W Testfiles for example. "6505+LEAD-Mesa4x12OS-57" sounds totally balanced. I cant get even close to it. Or the stuff mickrich posts. Or anybody else. They all have the same overall character/frequency response. Normally i place the mic at the edge of the dustcap but that sounds dull, muddy..and thin But for comparison dead center is the easiest way.
Oh, yes it's a 4x12 Cab but non Oversized

haha well, I think the evh comparison reamps ended up a bit on the scratchy bright side, but I like to use them for referencing these days, to get in the ballpark.
Edge of the dustcap works great for me, but in that area the placement is really crucial...a few mm can result in quite a drastic shift in the peaks imo
So if it's not the OS then it isn't the recto standard cab, but the recto traditional (stilletto)? From what I know, that one sounds middier and has less bass compared to the OS, so maybe that's the "problem"

 

[Mago]

I do most of my reamps with postgain at 3, fwiw

 

[bryan_kilco]

Not sure why I quoted you, Mago. Pardon me, I am still beat up from our show last night. Sunday night death metal show about 2 hours away, didn't get home till almost 4 am.

 

[Mago]

No need to pardon, I was just a bit confused
But that you gigged yesterday and had a fucked night might explain why you didn't think the clip in the OP sounds bright haha

 

[bryan_kilco]

No need to pardon, I was just a bit confused
But that you gigged yesterday and had a fucked night might explain why you didn't think the clip in the OP sounds bright haha

Exactly my thoughts as well.

I went to bed with South Park playing on Netflix, had the volume on "reasonable level". Woke up and it was BLASTING.

Sorry, getting off topic. Carry on!

 

[Red Phoenix]

mago, do you still have a raw single guitar record with dead center? I want to hear that brittle, fizzy and trebleness of hell

I meant the traditional 4x12 which has the same size as most cabinets. But i tried also a marshall with standard celestion vintage 30, a T75 and i even put a mesa voiced V30 into the Marshall 4x12. And none of those setups gives me that treble on dead center!
If it wouldn't be the same with the e906 than i would say the sm57 is fucked up..

Today i loaded up TSE x50 and compared it to the 5150 with IRs and i could not notice a difference in the preamp section. onqel implemented an impedance curve in the powersection so i cant really compare the frequency response of the poweramp.

Has anybody experiences with different rooms? rooom modes / standing waves affecting the tone and something like that...

arrgh =D

 

[Mago]

yeah I do
Top Right Speaker
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3961577/TR - R.wav

Bottom Left Speaker
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3961577/BL - R.wav

As centered as I could get it, just to compare the speakers.
I had a bit too much bass dialed in at those reamps, but for it worked for me to compare the speakers anyway.

Might also worth to mention that my cab is slanted, and I didn't take that into account when micing the top 2 speakers. So those are actually a bit off-axis, so to speak^^

I still have to make a proper speaker shootout with angling the mic on the top speakers so it's also on axis on those

 

[Jaymz]

Those sound good even in the "dead center" spot Marco!

I still have to do that tester but when I tried it very quickly it sounded bloody horrid haha

 

[bryan_kilco]

Yeah, like mentioned, it almost sounds "too good" to be in the center position.

Then again, your Highs are set to 5.5 where I think "average" metal settings are around 6-7.

 

[Colin M. St. Claire]

I have the opposite problem. My mic'd guitar sounds are SUPER dark and muddy.