Miced Amp sounds always too mid focused and thin

[Red Phoenix]

Thanks Mago. That sounds entirely different i think. And also pretty good for dead center.
I did another test today and was quite surprised. I took the mesa voiced v30 out of the 4x12 cab and put it in a self build 1x12 cab at my home room. So i changed the room and the cab. I startet building an isolation cabinet a few weeks ago but i needed a reference recording of my gear with a 4x12 to judge the 1x12 with optional isolation cap. The 1x12 cab alone sounds totally different. More oomph and the highs are different. The first time i tried it 2 weeks ago i had the same problem with a thin sound..so i'm not really sure if it's the cab fault.
Have to check the 4x12 again

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7625817/DIY_1x12_Cab.mp3

Again mic dead centered and same ampsetting.

The Hi pot of the 5150 doesn't change the hi freqs i'm looking after. It affects more the high mid area in my ears.

@Colin M. St. Claire
can you tell a bit how you record? What room are you recording in? I guess more and more that the room plays a big role..

 

[Deuteronomy]

mic placement is needs many years to develop and everything plays a role,cab/room/mic/mic distance etc.
If you know what you're doing,you will definitely have a better result from amp sims etc

 

[Mago]

Those sound good even in the "dead center" spot Marco!

I still have to do that tester but when I tried it very quickly it sounded bloody horrid haha

thanks mate, as good as it can sound in that spot I suppose
But nice to judge the nastyness of a speaker I think!

Thanks Mago. That sounds entirely different i think. And also pretty good for dead center.
I did another test today and was quite surprised. I took the mesa voiced v30 out of the 4x12 cab and put it in a self build 1x12 cab at my home room. So i changed the room and the cab. I startet building an isolation cabinet a few weeks ago but i needed a reference recording of my gear with a 4x12 to judge the 1x12 with optional isolation cap. The 1x12 cab alone sounds totally different. More oomph and the highs are different. The first time i tried it 2 weeks ago i had the same problem with a thin sound..so i'm not really sure if it's the cab fault.
Have to check the 4x12 again

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7625817/DIY_1x12_Cab.mp3

Again mic dead centered and same ampsetting.

The Hi pot of the 5150 doesn't change the hi freqs i'm looking after. It affects more the high mid area in my ears.

Huh...the more I listen to it, to me I'm not familiar with the sound at all...wouldn't have guessed that it's a V30 out of a Mesa Cab, tbh.
The struckture of the hi mids and highs is totally different to what I'm used to with my cab, and also knowning the raw tones of other guys with the cab, Jaymz for example.
Sounds more like it has some gt75ness going on....reaaaally strange and hard to describe.
Cause the same character is also there in the DIY cab.

I'm afraid I really can't give any usefull advice, exept maybe getting someone with the same cab in your room to see what is wrong (if it's not the tubes of the head).
Or your reamping setup (if you're mobile) to the same cab. Cause honestly as long as the room doesn't suck donkey balls (which you are able to hear a lot allready while playing through it) then it shouldn't have THAT much of an effect on the sound.

 

[Colin M. St. Claire]

Thanks Mago. That sounds entirely different i think. And also pretty good for dead center.
I did another test today and was quite surprised. I took the mesa voiced v30 out of the 4x12 cab and put it in a self build 1x12 cab at my home room. So i changed the room and the cab. I startet building an isolation cabinet a few weeks ago but i needed a reference recording of my gear with a 4x12 to judge the 1x12 with optional isolation cap. The 1x12 cab alone sounds totally different. More oomph and the highs are different. The first time i tried it 2 weeks ago i had the same problem with a thin sound..so i'm not really sure if it's the cab fault.
Have to check the 4x12 again

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7625817/DIY_1x12_Cab.mp3

Again mic dead centered and same ampsetting.

The Hi pot of the 5150 doesn't change the hi freqs i'm looking after. It affects more the high mid area in my ears.

@Colin M. St. Claire
can you tell a bit how you record? What room are you recording in? I guess more and more that the room plays a big role..

I usually just use one 57 pointed at where the cone meets the rest of the speaker. It's in a cube shaped basement room. Does room shape and size make a big deal when close micing a cab?

 

[tk7261]

I recently had a lot of problems with a 5150ii, mesa os, and sm57 as well. Theres a thread about it floating around here somewhere. I tired every mic placement imaginable. Turns out my head setting where causing the biggest problem. So that is worth looking checking out. Once I got the head settings I liked, the mic placement was a lot easier and I was able to use a much simpler position. Also note how much guitars effect tone. If your comparing your clips to other peoples its worth taking into consideration how your guitar sounds compared to theirs. But I think your tone sounds pretty good. How does it sound in a mix?

Here a short reamp from a song with my new settings and mic placement. Maybe it could help to hear another similar setup as yours for reference or whatever.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/140656441/Teethforteeth sample.mp3

 

[Axonic Rot]

From what I've seen and heard the best balance is with the SM57 an inch away from the grill dead on axis and aimed right where the dustcap joins the cone.

One thing to note is that I used to go through experimenting with mic positions and mics and cabs and then eventually figured out the interface I was using was garbage and would never get a good sound. I sold it and got a new one and the telephone sound was gone and replaced with sound that was more along the lines of what I expected. The bad sounding interface was a tascam US1641 and I swapped it for a presonus audiobox.

 

[Red Phoenix]

The Mesa isn't broken in /worn in yet, or how it's called. It's brand new and only have some playingtime on bedroom levels. Due to the records it has around 1-2 hours on higher volumes now. But as far as i know only some harsh freqs should get rounder when the "paper" isn't that stiff anymore.
I know what you mean with T75ness. You're right. I already said, there is something wrong The e906 really captures how its sounding in the room and thats not a hell of a difference to the sm57.
For some time i read that celestion changed something regarding their production and that changed the sound of their speakers. But i dont know if the ones for mesa are affected by that.

The room is not perfect. No acoustically treatment, but there are no bare walls, no hall.
I still need to buy some acoustic foam for the isolation cab, i could then try it also in the room around the 4x12 but i don't expect a difference.


I could go to a music shop and play a 6505 there, the last time i did that it felt like it had more balls and chunk but it was all the shops equipment. I could ask someone with a car to carry my gear to the shop for testing But I'm afraid to show up there with all that gear, taking their room and probably buying nothing =D

@colin
as long as the room isn't that small like something under 1m^3 i always thought it shouldn't affect the tone drastically when close miking...but reading on hifi forums the room always affect the tone due to standing waves..so i am clueless..


@tk7261
the settings i used are quite standard and changing them don't do anything in that direction.
i have enough reference records with jeffs rose di so its not the guitar.
In a mix it sounds like a telephone..mid rangy and weird..but thats related to the 4x12 cab..the 1x12 is a bit boomy but better. But normally the 4x12 should sounds better..


@Axonic Rot
I didn't consider the interface (edirol ua 25ex) yet. I planned to buy a focusrite due to more channels. Would be funny if thats the problem...but hard to judge before buying another one and i thought without getting a decent tone i don't need a better interface^^
And the amp sounds also in the room like that where no interface is involved.

 

[Jon Warren]

Just a thought, but in regards to:

"i have enough reference records with jeffs rose di so its not the guitar."

Does that mean you are eq'ing and setting up your amp to sound like those reference records straight out of the cab? If Amp+cab+mic=the sound you are after in the monitors and you have that sound coming out of the cab before its mic'd then you will have quite a different sound once the response of the mid honky 57 mic effects the tone. Maybe try putting it more towards the outside to get the right amount of bass, then crank the treble beyond what you are comfortable hearing so that the mic picks it up.

Also, the pictures don't display and I'm not sure if I read that you tried this or not as I read the thread on my lunch 4 hours ago, but have you tried putting the mic dead center but at a 45 degree angle? It will round off the treble and point the mic at the cone where the lows are produced.

 

[xTomx]

Get a ribbon mic.

 

[Jon Warren]

Hey,
the last week i struggled with micing my amp and no matter how i place an SM57 or e906 the sound is always too mid focused and feels kinda thin. It's lacking bass/oomph and highs/bite. From a SM57 placed dead center i expect something way bassier and with a lot of highs than i get.
I record a short sample to show what i mean.
It's recorded through a 5150 into a Mesa V30 miced with a SM57 placed dead center.
Ampsetting was Low 6, Mid 2, Hi 5.5, PostGain 2, Resonance 7, Presence 8. Playing with the Ampsetting doesn't fix it for me as well the mic position doesn't. Am i missing something? Or is it necessary to set the amp way louder? I thought Postgain on 2 is common for recording..
I tried also different speaker and another cab. Just the same..always sounds like a telephone.
Probably i fail at micing

Doesn't sound too bad now that I've listened to it. I loaded up the track and compared in a spectrum analyzer to a guitar sample from Exodus Exhibit B and its pretty close. Your sample is GREEN and exodus is BLUE

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yt89tvbmu3aqjm9/ozoanal.jpg

As you can see, it is a little mid heavy in the 300-600 range but you can fix that after recording it. Have you tried turning the Resonance down a bit? I've noticed too much resonance can sound flubby and can effect the the way the presence shines through.

 

[Jaymz]

Get a ribbon mic.

If a 57 isn't working buying a ribbon mic is not going to help you.

 

[Red Phoenix]

Its not the micposition, i tried so much. And a ribbon mic isn't solving the problem at the source And i'm quite sure now that its the cab fault..this new mesa sounds weird. Changing the amp doesn't really change the tone but changing the cab does. Met someone with an Oversized and i liked that better. But it was an older one.
Got anyone else here a new and old version of a Mesa OS or Traditional cab and noticed a difference?

@Jon Warren
you know that just a tiny difference in ozone spectrum analyzer can be a difference of 3-6db? So it might not be as close as you think.
And even resonance on 10 doesn't sound flubby with that cab

 

[Trevoire520]

I think if you crank the bass and resonance then you should get your low end thump going, then maybe do a small mid cut in the mix and you should be sounding not bad man.

 

[Red Phoenix]

I will do that for now but probably i change the cab in the long run